BruceVC Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 That's a very good post and you make some relevant points And you have made me realize something else, I remember very few characters in my party through the various RPG I have played but I do remember the characters I shared Romance with. So for me another benefit around Romance is the obvious deeper interaction you have with people and this allows you to not just remember them as faceless people in your party but someone of significance in your memory of the game. This is a very valid observation It's a valid Observation, but I'm not sure it's universal truth that Romances automatically = more memorable characters. People will remember NPCs who are well written and who are prolifically represented in a video game. (read: lots of lines either spoken or text) Whether they're romanceable or not makes little difference. Romances are certainly a way to make a character memorable. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. What IS in dispute is whether it's the best way. I happen to be in the camp of people who say it's not. And for my argument, I can say this. In my years of gaming the characters I remember most are: 1)Irenicus 2)Morte 3)Fall-From-Grace 4)Serevok 5)Neeshka 6)Viconia 7) Roche ^And only one of these is romanceable. Fair enough I do remember most of those characters but I particularly remember Grace because I did attempt to Romance her "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Monte Carlo Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Bruce is there any computer game character you haven't tried to nail? Is there a Kobold in faraway Nashkel wondering why you don't call any more? 2
BruceVC Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Bruce is there any computer game character you haven't tried to nail? Is there a Kobold in faraway Nashkel wondering why you don't call any more? Monte you funny To be honest my character generally only pursues Romance with human females or similar races like a Drow (Viconia comes to mind), the main reason for this is I normally play a male character and that is what seems logical during my RPG experience for me personally. A female Kobold isn't what my character would initiate a Romance with "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hassat Hunter Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware.Get back to me once BioWare makes a character with depth like Kreia. They can't? ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee
PrimeJunta Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware. And praise the gods of computer games for that! 4 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
FlintlockJazz Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Bruce is there any computer game character you haven't tried to nail? Is there a Kobold in faraway Nashkel wondering why you don't call any more? Monte you funny To be honest my character generally only pursues Romance with human females or similar races like a Drow (Viconia comes to mind), the main reason for this is I normally play a male character and that is what seems logical during my RPG experience for me personally. A female Kobold isn't what my character would initiate a Romance with And what, may I ask, have you got against kobolds exactly??!! Is not a kobold entitled to the same love as that prissy elf bitch or human tart? What are you, bigoted? Give kobold love a chance! 3 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams
Monte Carlo Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware.Get back to me once BioWare makes a character with depth like Kreia. They can't? Wow. I'm actually speechless that this guy thinks Bioware makes characters. They make the gaming equivalent of inflatable sex toys, ludicrous facsimiles. 1
AwesomeOcelot Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 It's telling that the people advocating romance are also the people who like BioWare's shallow and uninteresting writing, with flat one dimensional characters that they'd completely compromise for the sake of adding romance options. Go back a BioWare Kickstarter, ask for the ability to romance anything in the game, even inanimate objects. 3
anameforobsidian Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I never did get a response about in game romance being fairly coercive since the player controls all the variables and can force characters to do what the player wants. Edited February 18, 2014 by anameforobsidian
BruceVC Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Yet, Obsidian can't create characters quite like Bioware.Get back to me once BioWare makes a character with depth like Kreia. They can't? Wow. I'm actually speechless that this guy thinks Bioware makes characters. They make the gaming equivalent of inflatable sex toys, ludicrous facsimiles. It's telling that the people advocating romance are also the people who like BioWare's shallow and uninteresting writing, with flat one dimensional characters that they'd completely compromise for the sake of adding romance options. Go back a BioWare Kickstarter, ask for the ability to romance anything in the game, even inanimate objects. And the ubiquitous and unnecessary "Bioware bashing" starts, that's one way to get someone to like your posts hey boys. Except for the fact you will both be playing DA:I when it gets released, despite the reality that "Bioware games contain shallow writing, characters and inflatable sex toys". But I suppose a dislike of Bioware and there games is a temperamental thing that only applies around our dislike for Romance 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
FlintlockJazz Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) And the ubiquitous and unnecessary "Bioware bashing" starts, that's one way to get someone to like your posts hey boys. Except for the fact you will both be playing DA:I when it gets released, despite the reality that "Bioware games contain shallow writing, characters and inflatable sex toys". But I suppose a dislike of Bioware and there games is a temperamental thing that only applies around our dislike for Romance I'm not one of the ones you quoted but I won't be getting DA:I I guarantee you. I wasn't joking when I said in another post that I had gotten out and was relieved to do so, it's just not worth the self-abuse of hoping that 'this time might be different'. Plus, I have literally become fed up and frustrated with the 'Bioware characters'. I tried the DA2 demo, which is when I decided to finally go and leave, and thought "I seriously cannot be bothered with these type of characters anymore..." This is the honest truth now, I just got tired of them, I knew exactly how it would play out and the pompous self importance of the characters and forced cinematic experience finally destroyed me. No more. Edited February 18, 2014 by FlintlockJazz 2 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams
AwesomeOcelot Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Pretty much proves my point when you get all flustered when it's pointed out how ****ty BioWare's writing is, what some people really want is for Obsidian to make a BioWare game, but I don't think they'd be willing to take enough blows to the head. It's not enough that you want romance added, you want incredibly bad romance added to the game. Except for the fact you will both be playing DA:I when it gets released, despite the reality that "Bioware games contain shallow writing, characters and inflatable sex toys". You can of course play games despite the bad writing, I play Dawn of War 2 and Hard Reset without thinking much of the writing. I didn't buy Dragon Age 2 because of how shockingly awful that is based on the videos I've seen.
Lurky Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I never did get a response about in game romance being fairly coercive since the player controls all the variables and can force characters to do what the player wants. Because that's uncomfortable to acknowledge. If there's still a bunch of people who have trouble dealing with the fact that PoE won't have romances, of course they're not going to acknowledge how utterly exploitable videogame romances are. I'd also add that most times, videogame romances are designed to be exploitable, because otherwise people complain that they're too hard. Really, I know this post was writer by just one guy, just one of the writers at BioWare that is not representative of the rest, but that whole "I actively want these games to be indugences because life is hard" is pretty telling of the general philosophy. To me, romance was the difference between Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate. It's why I don't remember any of New Vegas' companions. Yet, why so many people care about and recognize the companions that Bioware has created (Thane, Garrus, Kaiden, Fenris, Alistair, Anders, etc). I think that the best thing that Dragon Age 2 did was perfect the companion system with their Rivalry vs Friendship mechanic. No matter how you played, you influenced your companions and your companions influenced you. But even outside of DA2, the entire Dragon Age and Mass Effect series really made you feel like you were forming bonds with your squad mates. It's what made choosing just 2 or 3 of them so hard! And you have made me realize something else, I remember very few characters in my party through the various RPG I have played but I do remember the characters I shared Romance with. So for me another benefit around Romance is the obvious deeper interaction you have with people and this allows you to not just remember them as faceless people in your party but someone of significance in your memory of the game. This is a very valid observation ...Have you considered, I don't know, fixating your attention on other character aspects? Personality quirks, memorable actions, character development and progression during the story, things like that? I can understand that remembering characters is easier if they give you the quick rush of chemicals romantic feelings can provide (look, I can into science too!), but you just said that you're almost unable to remember characters unless they give you that. If you're not exaggerating, then you really should do some introspection of yourselves. Diversify your interests a little, it'll be good for you! Edited February 18, 2014 by Lurky 2
BruceVC Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 e To me, romance was the difference between Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate. It's why I don't remember any of New Vegas' companions. Yet, why so many people care about and recognize the companions that Bioware has created (Thane, Garrus, Kaiden, Fenris, Alistair, Anders, etc). I think that the best thing that Dragon Age 2 did was perfect the companion system with their Rivalry vs Friendship mechanic. No matter how you played, you influenced your companions and your companions influenced you. But even outside of DA2, the entire Dragon Age and Mass Effect series really made you feel like you were forming bonds with your squad mates. It's what made choosing just 2 or 3 of them so hard! And you have made me realize something else, I remember very few characters in my party through the various RPG I have played but I do remember the characters I shared Romance with. So for me another benefit around Romance is the obvious deeper interaction you have with people and this allows you to not just remember them as faceless people in your party but someone of significance in your memory of the game. This is a very valid observation ...Have you considered, I don't know, fixating your attention on other character aspects? Personality quirks, memorable actions, character development and progression during the story, things like that? I can understand that remembering characters is easier if they give you the quick rush of chemicals romantic feelings can provide (look, I can into science too!), but you just said that you're almost unable to remember characters unless they give you that. If you're not exaggerating, then you really should do some introspection of yourselves. Diversify your interests a little, it'll be good for you! Of course all those points are important in you remembering certain characters during your RPG journey, but it doesn't change the significance of Romance. And I'm glad you are also into science Lurky..it can only bring you closer into the Romance camp 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Amentep Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I never did get a response about in game romance being fairly coercive since the player controls all the variables and can force characters to do what the player wants. I think part of the problem is that some designers feel that a romance should be a player ego stroke so they only fail if the player wants to fail them. In that sense the character and the story aren't a collaborative/reactive element with the players choices but become sublimated to the player's whim. Personally I think in a "perfect world" romance that there should be characters who you could pursue who you'll never succeed with - ie the other character will always break the romance because of their personality/goals/personal story and there should be factors other than player choice that can break a romance (for example, having your SO get injured repeatedly in combat if they're a party member). To me the romance if it exists shouldn't exist as an ego stroke for the player but as a character based story element. And, of course, the character should still be interesting and reactive if not romanced by the player - the player shouldn't have to romance them to have an interesting character to take in the party or do quests for, etc. 3 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
Lurky Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I'm glad you are also into science Lurky..it can only bring you closer into the Romance camp It can also plant me firmly in the anti group. You do know that the rush of chemicals is addictive, right? And that a bunch of the people at the BioWare forums do show symptoms of addiction, right? And that you show symptoms of addiction too, right? That's a reason behind the complaints that the OP didn't use SCIENCE™ for the against argument, in fact. Also don't quote me while I'm still editing my post Edited February 18, 2014 by Lurky
BruceVC Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I'm glad you are also into science Lurky..it can only bring you closer into the Romance camp It can also plant me firmly in the anti group. You do know that the rush of chemicals is addictive, right? And that a bunch of the people at the BioWare forums do show symptoms of addiction, right? And that you show symptoms of addiction too, right? Also don't quote me while I'm still editing my post Lurky I'm confidant you'll come round and see reason. You'll end up in the Romance camp, it is as inevitable as the rising sun. Its just the right thing to do And almost all of us are addicted to something in life, the best thing is to acknowledge it. But I really don't consider myself addicted to RPG romance. I enjoy it thoroughly but I don't suffer from some sort of dislike of a game if Romance is excluded. "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Monte Carlo Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 The post Lurky linked to just confirmed my worst fears about Bioware designers.
Stun Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) But I suppose a dislike of Bioware and there games is a temperamental thing that only applies around our dislike for RomancesYou probably weren't aiming this at me but this statement of yours is unequivocally untrue. My dislike of Bioware is a relatively recent phenomenon and is the sole result of Dragon Age 2, which was such a dismal failure and an insult to the genre in so many ways that I forgot it even had romances. But time heals wounds, as they say, so instead of flat out declaring that I'm not going to ever buy DA:I, I'll simply say that whether or not I get DA:I will depend on how good PoE is (since they're both scheduled to come out at about the same time). If PoE ends up being the game I've been waiting for then I won't bother with DA:I. Won't need to. (The only reason why I Bought Dragon Age Origins in the first place was because they advertised it as the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. And the only reason I bought Dragon Age 2 was because Dragon Age Origins was actually pretty good.) But on the off chance that PoE ends up being a cheap dud, then yes, I'll probably find myself wandering off, looking to get my RPG fix somewhere else, and that will probably cause me to go out and buy DA3. Edited February 18, 2014 by Stun
NanoPaladin Posted February 18, 2014 Author Posted February 18, 2014 I'm glad you are also into science Lurky..it can only bring you closer into the Romance camp It can also plant me firmly in the anti group. You do know that the rush of chemicals is addictive, right? And that a bunch of the people at the BioWare forums do show symptoms of addiction, right? And that you show symptoms of addiction too, right? That's a reason behind the complaints that the OP didn't use SCIENCE™ for the against argument, in fact. Also don't quote me while I'm still editing my post The large reason why I did not facet Science into the against argument is because I would want to go over a different aspect than just human biology, there was just nothing I could think of adding. You -could- consider the against argument as business science but that might be a stretch there. At any rate I do not there is a human out there that does not have some sort vice. I would imagine that humans by nature have addictive personalities.
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 The case for Romance is that you like them and want them. The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them. That is all. 2 "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands
BruceVC Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 The case for Romance is that you like them and want them. The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them. That is all. Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members. The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs .... That is all "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Amentep Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 The case for Romance is that you like them and want them. The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them. That is all. Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members. The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs .... That is all Even as someone who is nominally pro-romance in role playing games, a poorly written romance isn't going to be "more memorable and better interaction" than well written alternatives. I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
BruceVC Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) The case for Romance is that you like them and want them. The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them. That is all. Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members. The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs .... That is all Even as someone who is nominally pro-romance in role playing games, a poorly written romance isn't going to be "more memorable and better interaction" than well written alternatives. True but as far as I know no one is advocating a badly written Romance arc Edited February 18, 2014 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Amentep Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 The case for Romance is that you like them and want them. The case against Romance is that you don't like them and don't want them. That is all. Nah, the case for Romance is that they make for more memorable and better interaction with party members. The case against Romance is.....mmmm.....oh yes we can focus on other types of party interaction and discussion arcs .... That is all Even as someone who is nominally pro-romance in role playing games, a poorly written romance isn't going to be "more memorable and better interaction" than well written alternatives. True but as far as I know no one is advocating a badly written Romance arc But there's no guarantee that by writing a romance arc that it will be good; therefore romance as element cannot be seen as naturally additive, ie game I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
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