Monte Carlo Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 * returns * Basic issue Codex. It's always been like that. 2
FlintlockJazz Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 The major concern I have with romance stems from the time I tried to visit the BSN. In my younger, stupider days I didn't realise just how horrible and nasty that place is, and signed up. While there, I not only discovered just how 'popular' romances were amongst certain demographics but also that the very idea that the NPC should have standards of any sort that narrowed the number of characters they would get with or result in the PC being turned down was anathema to them. I was told, quite firmly, by most there that they play games to escape and that they should be able to bone whoever they like regardless of orientation or preferences of the NPC. They did NOT want anything deeper, they wanted to be able to get with whoever they wanted 'regardless of how they played'. Now, I know that many of the promancers here claimed they wanted meaningful romances and suchlike, but if Obsidian had put in romances then these people who 'just want to escape and not deal with real life rejection' will complain if they can't bone all the romance options because they are playing a Orlan or Amaua or a carrot, and will push to have them 'open up' to everyone, eventually turning the romances into the bland BSN ones we all know. These people have TOLD me that's what they want from the RPG romances they play. As for what the Obsidian forums are like, let me put it this way: I will not go near the BSN ever again, not because of 'weirdoes' (we all are really) but because it's actually a nasty place really, while I won't go near the RPGCodex because it's 'Not for me'. These forums? Well, I'm gracing you all with my amazing presence aren't I? :D 4 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams
datanoppa Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 The major concern I have with romance stems from the time I tried to visit the BSN. In my younger, stupider days I didn't realise just how horrible and nasty that place is, and signed up. While there, I not only discovered just how 'popular' romances were amongst certain demographics but also that the very idea that the NPC should have standards of any sort that narrowed the number of characters they would get with or result in the PC being turned down was anathema to them. I was told, quite firmly, by most there that they play games to escape and that they should be able to bone whoever they like regardless of orientation or preferences of the NPC. They did NOT want anything deeper, they wanted to be able to get with whoever they wanted 'regardless of how they played'. Now, I know that many of the promancers here claimed they wanted meaningful romances and suchlike, but if Obsidian had put in romances then these people who 'just want to escape and not deal with real life rejection' will complain if they can't bone all the romance options because they are playing a Orlan or Amaua or a carrot, and will push to have them 'open up' to everyone, eventually turning the romances into the bland BSN ones we all know. These people have TOLD me that's what they want from the RPG romances they play. As for what the Obsidian forums are like, let me put it this way: I will not go near the BSN ever again, not because of 'weirdoes' (we all are really) but because it's actually a nasty place really, while I won't go near the RPGCodex because it's 'Not for me'. These forums? Well, I'm gracing you all with my amazing presence aren't I? :D Yes we are overhelmed by your radianting presence, i can feel Bromance forming up. 1
BruceVC Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 * returns * Basic issue Codex. It's always been like that. That's fine, I'm not going to worry about it then or participate in discussions on RPGCodex because I can see myself getting very annoyed The only reason I raised it was because I was under the impression that RPGCodex was the realm of the hardcore RPG elitists and I assumed that would mean they could conduct themselves in a mature way without being derogatory. I'm also surprised that the Mods there allow people to talk like that, I also doubt they have many female members "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Eurhetemec Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 The idea that one should be pro or anti romance in general seems pretty bizarre to me, and the ardent desire some peole are showing to divide people into those two camps seems really counter-productive at best. The suggestion that all BioWare romances are "harem anime" or simple wish-fulfillment is pretty laughable, I'd suggest, if one has played those games. Many are easy to "fail", others emotionally complex, and some are quite funny/witty. Of course, others are pretty clumsy or silly-seeming, or a bit eye-roll-inducing, and the whole putting sex at the end of them thing (which not all of them do, note) is a bit crude/game-y. Still, "harem anime", they aren't. Not by a long stretch. THAT SAID (!), there is no inherent need for an RPG to have romance, and any kind of reasonably complex relationship with interesting NPCs can be just as fun, involving, and emotionally interesting as something defined as a "romance". A good example is Sten in DA:O - attempting to get to know him, to get him to open up, and so on is a great deal more interesting than, well any of the romances I've seen in DA:O. Equally in DA:O, a female Warden's friendship with Morrigan is, I feel, more interesting than a male Warden's romance with her. So the lack of romances doesn't bother me (nor would their presence), but I do hope we have relationships with the NPCs which are complicated and interesting. 3
Hiro Protagonist II Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I believe Obsidian has the best writers in the RPG business, but Chris Avellone's frankly immature and condescending attitude towards love and romance turns me off. Since this game is looking like another dungeon crawl hack and slash I doubt I'll be buying it regardless. You'll probably find a lot of people (especially the old regulars from the BIS days) have a lot of respect for the staff at Obsidian. A lot of creative talent. Some even claim that Avellone is a mad genius. His mind and imagination are somewhere far out in space. If you knew this, you wouldn't expect him to take the mundane approach of doing something mundane to something mundane, which romances tend to be. We'll be much better off if Chris can do what Chris does best. You'll also have others saying, If they knew nothing else about this game they'd have pledged just reading his responses on romances. And everyone here whose raving that he's somehow immature or condescending or he's got it wrong have got it backwards. You're the one's asking for a virtual romance. Avellone is using abstraction to build a dungeon that sucks people like me in and to make an original story. Not to mention a thousand different subplots that opens up with an NPC's experimentation that explore human psychology, motivations and ethics. There has already been enough shallow, cliché, cookie cutter romances in gaming. Only this creative mindset from obsidian, and the likes of Avellone, will set things apart and give the story depth. The guy is a genius. And some like myself will say, the issue is that as far as rpg romances are concerned, there is little to no innovation over the past decade. Every single instance of it is pretty much based on BG2's approach. There is no innovation in storytelling or mechanism, at all, since the days of BG2. When BG2 did it, it was great. A pretty interesting innovation. Then it stood in place for 10+ years. I'd like to see a return to creative storytelling, turning things on their head. And perhaps in PoE 2, we may see romances. Just not what we expect. 5
FlintlockJazz Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Yes we are overhelmed by your radianting presence, i can feel Bromance forming up. Yes, that tends to happen to people when I'm in one place too long, something you just have to accept when you're as awesome as I am. We're just fortunate we haven't got to the Brodance stage yet. Edited February 13, 2014 by FlintlockJazz 3 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams
Quetzalcoatl Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) I believe Obsidian has the best writers in the RPG business, but Chris Avellone's frankly immature and condescending attitude towards love and romance turns me off. Since this game is looking like another dungeon crawl hack and slash I doubt I'll be buying it regardless. The funny thing is that Chris Avellone wrote Planescape: Torment, which was released in 1999 (i.e. a year before Baldur's Gate 2) and was perhaps the first cRPG that featured plenty of romance that was central to the plot. I'd argue that simplifying his comments on videogame romance as 'immature and condescending' is pretty immature and condescending of you. Edited February 13, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl 2
Monte Carlo Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 * returns * Basic issue Codex. It's always been like that. That's fine, I'm not going to worry about it then or participate in discussions on RPGCodex because I can see myself getting very annoyed The only reason I raised it was because I was under the impression that RPGCodex was the realm of the hardcore RPG elitists and I assumed that would mean they could conduct themselves in a mature way without being derogatory. I'm also surprised that the Mods there allow people to talk like that, I also doubt they have many female members It's a gonzo mad-house of insane grogs and the mentally-disturbed. It can be fun, but you need to know what you're getting into. It's not really my cup of tea, but hey, it's a great resource believe it or not. Many years from now cyber-anthropologists will be writing PhDs on the place.
Eurhetemec Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 And some like myself will say, the issue is that as far as rpg romances are concerned, there is little to no innovation over the past decade. Every single instance of it is pretty much based on BG2's approach. There is no innovation in storytelling or mechanism, at all, since the days of BG2. When BG2 did it, it was great. A pretty interesting innovation. Then it stood in place for 10+ years. I'd like to see a return to creative storytelling, turning things on their head. And perhaps in PoE 2, we may see romances. Just not what we expect. Little to no isn't really fair. The way romances are handled in DA2 (despite it's unpopularity) is certainly noticeably more advanced than in BG2, and even DA:O at least tried to move things on and complexify them a bit (in a clumsy way). The ME series is more debatable, but I would say it is considerably beyond what BG2 did. The idea that they are incompatible with creative storytelling doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The question I have, though, which is I think very relevant here, in a game which is intentionally going back to BG2/PST-style stuff (with a more advanced spin) is what sort of changes and mechanisms would you like to see in romance in, say, PoEternity 2? It's easy to say "game romances suck", but if you can't suggest something better, that rather weakens the criticism, and suggests that perhaps BG2, to some large extent "got it right first time" (I don't know if I agree, but given that Eternity is going back to BG2 in so many other ways, it's hard to suggest it didn't get a lot of things right). 1
aabb0426 Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 i can't believe. why? planescape is good romance,BG2 is also good
Cubiq Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 A lot of people seem to not like romance because it's 'poorly' implemented, like in bg2 and that if it would be like that, then they shoudn't bother. I find it exactly the opposite. If they made romance in the game i would want them to be light, exactly like in bg2. Reason i like it is because it gave me replayability. I'm fine with throwing coins in to the dialoge tree for the story to progress to see different endings. I don't want some kind of dating simulator. Also if it's implemented in to the story like PST then you have no choice but go through it every single time. Now THAT's tedious.
Cultist Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 There are several people on these forums who I respect immensely who are active members there and I know don't think like that but seriously don't the Moderators on RPGCodex enforce forum rules? Or am I being oversensitive.... you seem to assume "Forum Rules" are something universal.
BruceVC Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 There are several people on these forums who I respect immensely who are active members there and I know don't think like that but seriously don't the Moderators on RPGCodex enforce forum rules? Or am I being oversensitive.... you seem to assume "Forum Rules" are something universal. Absolutely and I also think that any forum that is in the public domain should have forum rules and etiquette that is enforced. You can't ask some people to do and say the right thing and assume they do it, that's why in some cases we need Moderators. "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Monte Carlo Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 ^ Like all 'liberals' Bruce, you're very keen on enforcing what other people can say. 3
BruceVC Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 ^ Like all 'liberals' Bruce, you're very keen on enforcing what other people can say. Not at all, but I do have an issue with comments that are offensive and derogatory. I'm weird like that .... "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
IndiraLightfoot Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 ^ Like all 'liberals' Bruce, you're very keen on enforcing what other people can say. Hmm, but some kind of law and order is what sets us apart from animals and primitive pecking orders. We do live in a civilization, no? And there's always the issue of moral responsibility, compassion, and... *SCREECH!* Hang on! This is the internet. What on earth was I thinking. Here's the place where people hide in anonymity behind their computer screens and go all ape again. Carry on! *Munches popcorn* 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
PrimeJunta Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 The suggestion that all BioWare romances are "harem anime" or simple wish-fulfillment is pretty laughable, I'd suggest, if one has played those games. Many are easy to "fail", others emotionally complex, and some are quite funny/witty. I've played them. That you even describe romance in terms of failure or success illustrates precisely what, in my opinion, is wrong with them -- and the fundamental difference in tastes and preferences I have with people who enjoy them. 4 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
PrimeJunta Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 The question I have, though, which is I think very relevant here, in a game which is intentionally going back to BG2/PST-style stuff (with a more advanced spin) is what sort of changes and mechanisms would you like to see in romance in, say, PoEternity 2? That's a fair question, and I'll try to answer it. I would like to see romance in PoE where the PC plays some other role than lover. Perhaps it's a romance between two companions, or a companion and an NPC, or two NPC's, and the PC becomes involved through some story twist. Why? Because I believe it's extremely difficult -- I won't say impossible because in writing nothing is completely impossible -- to write a compelling romance for a blank-slate character. PS:T's romance worked because TNO is not a blank-slate character, quite the opposite really. PoE's PC is a blank-slate character, so unless someone really surprises me, I don't believe it's possible to write a romance worth playing for him/her/hir/it/them. 1 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
anameforobsidian Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) I'll repost something I just put in the update thread. The death godlike are the first thing I've seen that makes me want in game romance. It could be the greatest subversion of RPG romance ever. Player: Take off the helmet-thing. Deathlike: I'm scared. Player: I know. But I love you the way you really are. Deathlike: But this helmet-thing is who I am.... Player: Trust me. Deathlike: (Takes off helmet-thing. In place of her eye are mouths with tentacles coming out, trying to lick the player. A vaguely pus-like fluid covers them.) Player: (Makes a fortitude check not to vomit.) Player: (rolls a 1.) Player: (vomits into eye-sockets.) Deathlike: (Purulent tentacles eat vomit.) Game: var_deathlikeromance = 0; Edited February 13, 2014 by anameforobsidian 3
Hassat Hunter Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I have a better question. Why does it have to be a Romance? Why aren't we asking for better friendships instead? Is a close friendship/bond with a fellow party member simply not "cool" or "interesting" enough? Does it not count unless there's kissing, "love" and other tropes that work better in chick-flicks than they do in combat-centric RPGs?Heh, funny... here I am WANTING to put in the friend zone . That's a new one. But yeah, "romances" in games are usually horribly exectured (see: BioWare). Outside of a story the progression is awkward, combined with the story there's not much optional, and being forced is, well, bad. Also, I seriously doubt without romances we wouldn't get flirty stuff to say (just without leadup to SEX like with that other developer), and will enjoy awesome one-liners like; Just because I saved her doesn't mean I was going to charge up her loading ramp. It's a bit forebaring that your PC will just completely avoid sex or passions just because there are no "bone-buddies" in this time... ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee
Archaven Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 As i see it, announcing romance DLC could instant profit for Obsidian.. Perhaps that's their plan?
FlintlockJazz Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 As i see it, announcing romance DLC could instant profit for Obsidian.. Perhaps that's their plan? PE Day 1 DLC: Bone Them All!! Followed by DLC Season Pass to gain romances with all future companions. Calling it now. 3 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams
Cultist Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Absolutely and I also think that any forum that is in the public domain should have forum rules and etiquette that is enforced. You can't ask some people to do and say the right thing and assume they do it, that's why in some cases we need Moderators. You still do not understand - a lot of people on Codex who shocked you with "rude and bigoted Sexist comments and jokes about rape" ARE moderators.
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