RANDOM VIDEO GAME NEWS

[Monte Carlo]

I personally prefer video games as a medium for story telling. Different strokes for different folks, and all.

trolololol

[alanschu]

 

I personally prefer video games as a medium for story telling. Different strokes for different folks, and all.

I have thought of the best way of convincing folks of my point, so I devised a situation to illustrate why games aren't a good medium for storytelling.

 

I would ask the person what their favorite movie was or what movie they are really excited about, after they answer I would say that we should watch that movie. On said viewing I will place a Simon Game in front of them and I will make sure that I have the remote. After that at any pivotal point in the film I will pause it or stop it and tell them that to keep watching it the must beat the Simon Game a undefined number of times.

 

At least if I can't convince them I will have some fun at their expense.

 

While I didn't mind Fahrenheit, I haven't played any of David Cage's other games. This sounds more like an indictment of his method of delivering story within a game, than a clear cut portrayal of how story is not required for games.

 

 

Planescape: Torment is probably my favourite game, because of its story. The RPG genre is probably my favourite, because I like to immerse myself in a story. Heck, even Fahrenheit is a game that I only really enjoyed (at least the first 80%) because of its story, and more specifically, the subtle ways I can influence it. I certainly didn't enjoy Fahrenheit for its gameplay.

 

I don't enjoy Baldur's Gate because of it's AD&D combat. I don't enjoy Bloodlines for its gameplay. Nor do I really care much for Arcanum for its gameplay. Fallout's gameplay isn't exactly top notch (though I'd probably prefer it over many other RPGs). And I still really enjoyed Telltale's The Walking Dead, moreso than a TV series, simply because for myself putting something in game format is simply a way to make it more appealing to me.

 

You can give me sheet music to teach me how to play guitar and I'll learn. Put it in video game form and suddenly there's that extra, intangible something that motivates me more to pick up the guitar.

 

 

I'd dare say that games like Baldur's Gate 2 would not be as popular as they are if they contained no writing and were akin to a roguelike like Dungeon Hack.

Edited February 8, 2014 by alanschu

[alanschu]

 

I personally prefer video games as a medium for story telling. Different strokes for different folks, and all.

trolololol

 

 

How quaint.

Edited February 8, 2014 by alanschu

[Orogun01]

While I didn't mind Fahrenheit, I haven't played any of David Cage's other games. This sounds more like an indictment of his method of delivering story within a game, than a clear cut portrayal of how story is not required for games.

 

 

Planescape: Torment is probably my favourite game, because of its story. The RPG genre is probably my favourite, because I like to immerse myself in a story. Heck, even Fahrenheit is a game that I only really enjoyed (at least the first 80%) because of its story, and more specifically, the subtle ways I can influence it. I certainly didn't enjoy Fahrenheit for its gameplay.

 

I don't enjoy Baldur's Gate because of it's AD&D combat. I don't enjoy Bloodlines for its gameplay. Nor do I really care much for Arcanum for its gameplay. Fallout's gameplay isn't exactly top notch (though I'd probably prefer it over many other RPGs). And I still really enjoyed Telltale's The Walking Dead, moreso than a TV series, simply because for myself putting something in game format is simply a way to make it more appealing to me.

 

You can give me sheet music to teach me how to play guitar and I'll learn. Put it in video game form and suddenly there's that extra, intangible something that motivates me more to pick up the guitar.

 

 

I'd dare say that games like Baldur's Gate 2 would not be as popular as they are if they contained no writing and were akin to a roguelike like Dungeon Hack.

I'm glad that you thought of Fahrenheit as that is partly where the idea comes from

 

All your points are valid, no one can't or should stop you from enjoying something just because they have a different opinion. 

I think that there should be a balance between gameplay and story so that one doesn't hurt the other (ludonarrative dissonance) but if married well it's near impossible to tell which comes first. All those games you mention have the capacity of allowing you to create and customize your avatar to be a sort of self insert, which is why their stories shone since you are anchored in them directly.

I agree with your point about BG2 requiring a story; although I may say that's because of a weakness on the part of the mechanics, but games have a different form of exposition than movies which requires the story to serve the gameplay or the opposite if it's going to have a wealth of either. I enjoyed The Wolf Among us despite it being a story driven game, on the other hand I didn't like Infinite having binary choices that meant nothing to the story.

I guess in the end it comes down to how story is implemented and what place it has within the game, but there are a lot of people in development that still need to figure out that what they're doing is wrong. Thus pioneers are we all.

[LadyCrimson]

I have difficulty with the over-reaching story arcs in a lot of games because of all the player-stuff I have to do in-between the snippets of story that are doled out. By the time I get to the next story bit, my brain is stuffed with side quests, chr. arcs/stories, profession skill/gear/other choices, exploring, beating up dozens of bad guys, etc. that I've practically forgotten there is a story arc.

 

That's just me tho. And it's not that I don't appreciate/want a good story in the game. It's just not my favorite format for getting one (vs. a book/movie).

[AwesomeOcelot]

The only game where I thought "this gameplay is just awful" but still played it because the story was top quality is Grim Fandango, it works better as a Let's Play, that's an example of games not being a good medium for story telling. Fahrenheit's story, every element is bad, the plot, the sci-fi, the dialogue, it's like its written by a complete idiot. Does the gameplay add anything to the story telling? No, there's no meaningful choice, there should be no added feeling of involvement because it is just an overlayed simon says game. TellTale's games are hardly any better, there's better writing but it's only mediocre when compared to the best TV and movies, being a game really doesn't add much to them.

 

RPGs (and rarely some other genres), especially Fallout, use gameplay and game environment to tell the story, in a way that's different and favourable over other medium such as books and video, they're a great medium for telling stories, they're games as a story telling medium. I prefer this over reading a book or watching a movie, It's just a shame that this barely happens, few companies attempt it and most have terrible writers. The problem is that writers of other medium, like TV and novels, can't write games it's a different skill, they don't get it, TV and game writers can write novels (as I suspect writers learn that kind of storytelling first), but there needs to be studying and experience for a novel writer to write for games or TV, lack of opportunity, prestige, pay, it's not conducive to excellence.

 

Other games, most other games have a story that's more about adding context and flavour, easiest way is cutscenes. Not really games as storytelling but not offensive like QTE infested pieces of ****e. They can even have really good stories, Overlord was pretty good in terms of story, Max Payne wasn't bad, Blizzard games often good. Games are justly notorious for bad stories overall though.

Edited February 9, 2014 by AwesomeOcelot

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

I personally prefer video games as a medium for story telling. Different strokes for different folks, and all.

trolololol

 

 

How quaint.

 

 

Don't patronise me. If you post bull5h1t then expect to be called on it.

 

On my side is Tolkien, Shakespeare, Kubrick, Mailer and Twain.

 

On yours is Dave Gaider and the bloke who wrote the ending of Mass Effect 3.

 

Now I know you're an intelligent and articulate man... what other conclusion is there to draw than trolling?

[Orogun01]

Monte, there is at least a 50 year gap in between each of the names that you mentioned. Games haven't been around for so long, give them time to grow and you will get the equivalent of all the great ones.

[Lexx]

Played the TESO Beta for a while. Graphics are good for an MMO, and it does look a bit like Skyrim. Other than that, I find it super boring, just as the Neverwinter MMO. Maybe I am just not open for this type of game anymore nowadays, no idea. In any case, paying 50 dollar for it and then another 15 dollar per month would be a huge no-go for me.

[Nonek]

The one strength for me in computer games is interactivity, whether that's seeing all of the options I can bring to light when I face the Transcendant One. How I can try and shape the Mojave to my wishes, whether I succeed or not. Even simple end game slides telling me the results of my actions are fine, so long as I made a difference. That's why I like Obsidian, they allow one to make choices and suffer the consequences. Sometimes not enough like at the Wall and Malachor, but I think that was somewhat out of their hands.

 

Take away that logical choice and consequence, replace it with "BUT THOU MUST," Deus Ex Machina or even the game not allowing you to progress through a blocked door until you hand over a child (an extremely repulsive none choice,) and I don't feel i'm playing anymore. I feel i'm being played and preached at, all at the same time. At that point I stop and uninstall or continue with an ever growing chip upon my shoulder.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Nonek

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I personally enjoy comics as a story-telling medium. Most are pure ****, but the few good ones manage to combine good pencils and writing in a pleasing manner.

 

Don't patronise me. If you post bull5h1t then expect to be called on it.

[Ganrich]

Monte, there is at least a 50 year gap in between each of the names that you mentioned. Games haven't been around for so long, give them time to grow and you will get the equivalent of all the great ones.

Agreed. Also, comparing the writing quality of print (something that showed up and is considered the reason for the start civilization as we know it around 5000ish years ago) to video games (that have only just started coming around as a story telling medium in the last 20-30 years) is pretty disingenuous. Video games are still finding their stride. This will likely change again when and if things like VR headsets take hold as they will have effect on how stories are told in the medium.

[alanschu]

Don't patronise me. If you post bull5h1t then expect to be called on it.

 

On my side is Tolkien, Shakespeare, Kubrick, Mailer and Twain.

 

On yours is Dave Gaider and the bloke who wrote the ending of Mass Effect 3.

 

Now I know you're an intelligent and articulate man... what other conclusion is there to draw than trolling?

 

So what you're saying here is that I don't know what I like, but you do know what I prefer? Like I said, "How quaint."

 

 

If I could choose one story experience to have stripped from my memory so that I could experience it again, it'd be Planescape: Torment. I will say this despite believing that Shawshank Redemption is a better constructed story. Why? Because Planescape: Torment has that intangible aspect of interactivity. It has the advantages of making that story and journey so much more personal, and as such memorable, to myself. Now maybe I'm psychologically maladjusted and immerse myself too much in video games, but to be frank you listing off a series of famous authors accomplishes nothing. Unless your point was a strawman and you've decided to now argue that the entirety of literature, and all of its history (and sheer quantity of authors), has better constructed stories than video games in their 30 year existence, most of which mired by technical limitations (i.e. Wasteland would refer to the manual for full text, since disk space was too valuable)... then I have to ask "are you even paying attention to what was said?"

 

You seem to also fundamentally feel that a video game could never be as good as a book or a movie (how many felt the same about movies...) in telling a story as well. Coming from the guy that seems to think that caves and D&D are essential to good gaming experiences, if you think that my response can only be one of trolling, I can only offer that either you have similar psychological maladjustment that I have, or you just straight up need to get your head out of your rear and start paying attention to the throngs of individuals that aren't Monte Carlo and like different things than Monte Carlo. There's a lot of them and though you often state so, they aren't all idiots. If you can't understand why I might prefer video games as my medium for story telling, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're simply being too rigid in how you break down why someone might prefer to experience a story interactively. It's your problem, though, and not mine, and for all the judgment you pass on other gamers for liking different stuff than you, at this point I'll just conclude that I don't think we have anything more to discuss with each other.

 

 

EDIT: Just as a further point, the other aspect of narrative that I like about video games is the emergent one. There's no scripted storyline in a game like Europa Universalis or Civilization, yet every time I play the game I am presented with a different story that I enjoy connecting the dots between events. This goes for games like FONV and even War in the Pacific. I'm not restricted from what a writer writes in a game, but also what I can imagine as I play the game. So I suppose I also have myself on my side as well, because it's damn fun creating (and sometimes even hilariously rationalizing) narratives for what has happened in my game experiences.

Edited February 9, 2014 by alanschu

[Zoraptor]

Agreed. Also, comparing the writing quality of print (something that showed up and is considered the reason for the start civilization as we know it around 5000ish years ago) to video games (that have only just started coming around as a story telling medium in the last 20-30 years) is pretty disingenuous. Video games are still finding their stride. This will likely change again when and if things like VR headsets take hold as they will have effect on how stories are told in the medium.

 

 

Yep. Cherry picking the best written movies and books also ignores that for every [my favourite book/ movie] that is untrammelled and objective awesome there is an absolute horde of Stephenie Meyer/ Dan Brown/ Michael Bay garbage extruded, year on year. Much like video games. But I do agree- in general- with Monte's basic premise in that if I were to make a list of favourite story tellings there'd be few game ones compared to others- but I'm nowhere near as concrete in it. Plus, per below, in games it really depends on how the story is told as well, and that is difficult to separate from the story itself.

 

You can most definitely prefer games as a medium for story telling without necessarily thinking the stories being told are themselves good in an absolute sense. Most of the people I've seen that like Oblivion don't argue that the story itself is good, but that the way of telling it is good- they're able to put themselves into the story and world in a way that is literally (heh) impossible for other media. In video games the story is not just what is said and done, it is also the interaction with a world, the immersion and the feeling of being part of the action yourself- something that movies and books and other such 'art' cannot do. I love Stalker, its story, if separated from the game itself, is pretty mediocre. Its way of telling the story is, at least in SoC, absolutely brilliant as it oozes atmosphere and especially immersion that a movie (yes, my eastern european friends, I know) or book (ditto) can only dream of. And that way of telling the story makes up for a lot of the story's shortcomings.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Zoraptor

[LadyCrimson]

If they get to a VR point where I actually feel as tho I am an actor playing a role in a movie - but without having the embarrassment of having to have anyone see/hear what a terrible actor I am (haha!) then I may end up loving games as a story medium.  I mean, if I'm alive at the time, games with tactile sensory imput, total 3d immersion and picking up a stick means reaching out to pick up a stick that would be pretty awesome. eg, a holodeck.   Also, it'd get rid of the couch-potato syndrome.

 

...but unlike alan, I feel the interactivity of a sit-at-keyboard computer game actually takes away from the flow/pace of story, and to me, uninterrupted flow is everything. Whether this is because of current methods of integration/implementation in games I have no idea, but I'd guess it's pretty likely.

[Humanoid]

What might put a dampener on things is that by the time VR gaming becomes a thing, it'll also be at the point in time when Google watches, records, and forever stores your every move.

 

 

 

Oh wait, that's already happened.

[Ganrich]

Don't get me wrong.  I don't know if we will ever get story telling on the same level as some books, plays, or TV/movies in games.  However, I don't think the medium is quite mature enough to handle it.  I liken it to comic books of 40 or so years ago.  They told stories, and decent ones at times, but then the Watchmen came out and it told (what I consider but YMMV) an incredible story.  The reason I am using the Watchmen is for one reason:  They use every comic book trick to convey the story.  You have the tone of each scene set by The Tales of the Black Freighter clips.  You have insight given from Hollis Mason's book clips.  You have newspaper headlines cast throughout that give you tension, news, and the like.  You even have a difference in chat bubbles between the Rorschach of yesteryear (regular bubble), and the Rorschach of today (jagged bubble) that is there to show you he has gone full sociopath.  Watchmen does what no comic/graphic novel had done previously and used every trick comics had to tell the story.  I expect video games will inevitably hit that level.  They may go further than that, but that isn't something I am sure about. 

 

For instance, I could see an Elder Scrolls type game with an open world, fully VOed, with history books to explain the past that led to the current story, a system of dialogue using keywords (not unlike Wasteland 2 was going to have, but is activated by the player speaking into a microphone) that initiated player Dialogue similar to a Bioware title, that uses in game graphics and colors to convey moods and tone, etc etc.  All of this supporting the Rift or some manifestation of VR headsets, something akin to the OMNI, and some sort of motion type controls (maybe VR gloves).  The trouble is we haven't even solved how to tell a better than serviceable story in an open world.  Video games don't really need to go as deep as a book on story telling, but they need to learn how to use the game to tell the story in a way that only a game can and rely less on cinematic sequences set up in chunks throughout the game.  Pacing may always be an issue in games though. 

 

I am not saying that games are telling anywhere near the stories that the written word has, but I will say that we are looking at a medium that is heavily inhibited by technology and money.  This is something that Books don't have any more.  It takes 1 author to write a book, and after editing, marketing, etc it still took 1 person to craft the book.  Games suffer from writers being contracted for financial reasons at the moment.  Very few companies get, and keep, a writer worth his salt.  It is ironic that I am posting this one Obsidian's forums as they are one of the few that try to keep their writers.  If money wasn't an issue, game companies tried to get the best writers they could, and keep them on staff then we would probably be looking at a different industry.  Story is very low on the totem pole at most companies whether they are AAA or indie.  When something like RPG Maker is able to make a game in an engine like Cryengine and most money can be used for VO, Story, Music and general audio, etc we may see better story telling in games.  However, as long as games cost as much as they do to make then we will see stories that are just serviceable and a lot of Michael Bay-splosions. 

 

Until then, games that use written dialogue will still have the best of stories IMHO.  They may suffer pacing issues, and may not be as fluid as Shakespeare, nor as nuanced as many books.  They need to do what games can only do, and allow the player to interact with the world and see repercussions from those actions.  At present they don't do this, or they don't do it well enough when using VO.  My main point is that with VO you lose reactivity, but with text you lose immersion and possibly pacing.  When we can get the same, or close to it, reactivity with VO that we do with text in games... we will see something new and interesting.  It may never happen, but I will keep dreaming. 

 

@LadyCrimson - I expect we may see some very interesting stories told in the next 5-10 years when VR has a chance to mature a bit, and developers learn how to truly use it effectively.  We will see.  I sure am excited and hopefully about the advent of decent and affordable VR headsets though.  Whether anyone cares or not... I have a theory that Valve is holding off on Half Life 3 until VR is ready for primetime.  I could just be hoping VR is what helps Valve count to 3. 

[Orogun01]

Nice bit about Watchmen, I also like how Moore puts music lyrics to set mood and develop characters. Bit Phantom of the Opera at times though.

On subject of the Elder Scroll, now that you touched upon it I can properly illustrate one of the reason why I think of video games as a bad storytelling medium.
Everything on games is subject to being ignored with no consequence (except maybe the game rules) you can run through a game without giving the level design a second thought, or reading the notes and books. So even if there is a brilliant story in a Video Game the player still has a chance of missing bits of it.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think Watchmen's real strength is the splendid use of panels. I'll have to dig out my trade, but I remember being very impressed with how the most seemingly random elements were either foreshadowing or played a part in the story.

 

A shame that Moore's recent work is such dreck.

[alanschu]

It takes 1 author to write a book, and after editing, marketing, etc it still took 1 person to craft the book. Games suffer from writers being contracted for financial reasons at the moment. Very few companies get, and keep, a writer worth his salt.

I think it's also that writing for a game is not the same as writing for a book (which from what I understand also is not like writing for a movie).

 

You'll get talented novelists that come in but struggled with any sort of concept of divergence or anything like that. When writing for a game (depending on the type of game), you don't have complete control over all of the actors, and the player is often the most important actor. So the skills also aren't completely transparent, and even then the idea of focusing on story in video gaming is still relatively new, with technologies constantly in flux that alter how it's done.

 

Video games also have different workflows and pipelines, especially from novels. Stuff that has been written (which can usually be written early) gets cut due to time and/or tech challenges (which accent time issues). This workflow will either need to be refined or altered to help mitigate how often story ideas get kyboshed by things that the game's tech just cannot allow. Although tech is allowing writing to be done more collaboratively, and probably closer to movies than books, in that scenes can be written but their execution is done by a designer that knows how to architect the scene in the engine, complete with all the emotive and animation abilities that the writer can only provide consultation on.

 

 

I think good writing in video games is still a large challenge in large part due to tech cycle and just relative inexperience. But I am very curious (and hopeful) at how it will improve going forward.

[Agiel]

Great games are a potent combination of gameplay and storytelling. Though if you must be without one, do without the story.

[Ganrich]

@Orogun01 - Very true that you can completely overlook sections of story in games, but those that do that are rarely there for the story to begin with but there just to play the game. Those sorts of things are definitely an issue though.

 

@KaineParker - The Watchmen definitely had amazing use of panels as well. That was something I forgot to mention, but another one of those "comic book tricks".

 

@alanschu - When, and if, the game industry supports writers the way the book industry does we may see more writers with the appropriate skill sets for writing in games. Until then we will see the same mediocre story telling as a norm in most of our games.

 

@Agiel - I don't disagree with that mentality personally, but the popularity of Telltale's Walking Dead says it isn't necessarily a Law of game development. Not to start the "it is an interactive story not a game" debate, but (like PST) gameplay isn't the strong point of their games. So I would say if you forgo story for gameplay you hit one demographic while going the other way you would hit another. While in the current climate of the industry focusing on the game more so than the story may be more profitable, but that climate could change at some point. Not likely, but possible.

[C2B]

Forget this post.

Edited February 9, 2014 by C2B

[mkreku]

I CAN'T, IT'S ETCHED ITSELF ON MY BRAIN!!1

[WDeranged]

Chris Avellone once said (and I paraphrase) that PST's story was great for a computer game but pretty mundane when compared to some of his favourite novels and comics.  He's quite right in my opinion, the narrative goals of a computer game are vastly different to a novel.  The difference is that I'm the one who met Ravel, I'm the one who slew Dagoth Ur, I'm the one who convinced the Master to kill himself, I don't expect these things from a novel because there I'm entirely at the mercy of another person's soul, I'm an observer.

 

Still, computer game narratives are mostly awful, I'd have fingers and toes left to spare if I counted up the number of games that have moved me in any real way, which isn't to say that I haven't really enjoyed blowing stuff up but I'd appreciate a bit more care going into the stories, I'm not keen on this "show, don't tell" philosophy, I'd prefer show and tell.