Update #70: New Year Project Update

[Lephys]

Concentration is similar to Concentration in 3E/3.5 (somewhat similar to Poise in Dark Souls) but it is for everyone, not just spellcasters.  Concentration prevents you from playing hit reactions when you take damage.  If you cannot maintain Concentration, you will play a hit reaction and your attack/reload/spell is interrupted.  We're still defining the system (in fact, I was messing around with the formulae before I sat down), but that's the general idea.

 

In the new scheme, Might affects damage/healing whether it's a single application or over time.  Penetration is something we may or may not use in conjunction with an inherent Penetration value on weapons and other attacks that cause damage.  I'm leaning toward "not" right now.

I know it's not finalized, but I like where it's going.

 

I still have a minor qualm about one stat (Might) making, say, a Wizard both produce quite damaging spells/non-physical effects AND swinging a mace way harder. I'm fine with some physical feat being checked against EITHER mental power or physical power (for that aspect to be shared -- power is power, after all), but I just feel like any potent character now is ambiguously powerful; it kinda tosses out the physical/mental distinction, is all.

 

I get it, though. From a stats-and-effects standpoint. It works really well. I just wish there was a better way to do it, to maintain that distinction. I know, I'm a hopeless idealist.

 

 

i think you missunderstand something 

healing does not mean how much hp or stamina a cleric restores with a spell, it means how much hp you naturaly regenerate when you rest. so it rightfully belongs to might

the ruins screenshot screams DRAGON FIGHT!!!

Really? I was under the impression it was the other way around. Otherwise, NOTHING would affect healing potency from spells/abilities. "Oh, you have 1,000 Might, so you can produce the most powerful lightning bolt ever! But, if you cast a spell that uses healing energy instead of lightning energy, it's still only going to heal for like 6 Stamina!"

 

That just seems weird. Also, why would your physical/non-physical power just cause your cells to knit themselves back together faster than other people's? What does your ability to generate power/force have to do with your ability to regenerate?

Edited January 14, 2014 by Lephys

[Infinitron]

 

i think you missunderstand something 

healing does not mean how much hp or stamina a cleric restores with a spell, it means how much hp you naturaly regenerate when you rest. so it rightfully belongs to might

 

 

It is you who misunderstood

Edited January 14, 2014 by Infinitron

[Jobby]

Looking good love the environmental art as per usual and can't say that i'm too offended by wraith boobies lol, I have slight concerns regarding the Might stat and will hope that magical and physical damage are revised at some point but as the philosopher Jagger once said "you can't always get what you want".

 

I do have a question regarding monster models, can they be scaled to create a greater diversity of models? I remember Marts Monster Mod for Oblivion did this and it really added to the game imo.

[ItinerantNomad]

 

Concentration is similar to Concentration in 3E/3.5 (somewhat similar to Poise in Dark Souls) but it is for everyone, not just spellcasters.  Concentration prevents you from playing hit reactions when you take damage.  If you cannot maintain Concentration, you will play a hit reaction and your attack/reload/spell is interrupted.  We're still defining the system (in fact, I was messing around with the formulae before I sat down), but that's the general idea.

 

In the new scheme, Might affects damage/healing whether it's a single application or over time.  Penetration is something we may or may not use in conjunction with an inherent Penetration value on weapons and other attacks that cause damage.  I'm leaning toward "not" right now.

I know it's not finalized, but I like where it's going.

 

I still have a minor qualm about one stat (Might) making, say, a Wizard both produce quite damaging spells/non-physical effects AND swinging a mace way harder. I'm fine with some physical feat being checked against EITHER mental power or physical power (for that aspect to be shared -- power is power, after all), but I just feel like any potent character now is ambiguously powerful; it kinda tosses out the physical/mental distinction, is all.

 

I get it, though. From a stats-and-effects standpoint. It works really well. I just wish there was a better way to do it, to maintain that distinction. I know, I'm a hopeless idealist.

 

 

i'm actually glad they're moving away from strength. as it stands, a majority of the attributes already describe physical characteristics of the PC (strength, constitution, dex, perception). We need more abstract words like "might" to be used. You can either be a mighty wizard or a mighty barbarian. neither really defines you more than necessary.

 

Josh, any thoughts on whether adding certain party members will affect party reputations just by fact of their joining (for example, eder is a rascal in twin elms and by virtue of him being with you, starts you at a lower reputation) or are the numbers of npcs too small to consider this ideal?

Edited January 14, 2014 by ItinerantNomad

[coffeetable]

With the character screen, the records column doesn't seem to be near as important as the rest of the information displayed. Something like a minimal inventory screen would make better use of the space, so you could instantly see how different loadouts affected your stats.

[LordCrash]

The screenshot of the ruins fills me with even more anticipation than I already had. The level of detail and the realistic but still absolutely consistent look gives me a warm feeling inside. The stats UI looks just plain beautiful. The font is on the point, the style is on the point, the layout is on the point....what should I say more? 

 

Man, you guys are pulling all the right strings right now. You couldn't have made a lifelong fan of oldschool RPGs and the BG saga more happy today evening....thanks. 

 

 

And I just can't stop watching at these screens.....

[keiichimorisato98]

 

Josh, please describe the stats if possible. I don't know what concentration is, whether healing is based on spells/abilities that case healing, per-time unit healing for stamina/health or both, etc. is penetration different from the DT piercing? interrupt is what exactly, spell interruption?

 

Concentration is similar to Concentration in 3E/3.5 (somewhat similar to Poise in Dark Souls) but it is for everyone, not just spellcasters.  Concentration prevents you from playing hit reactions when you take damage.  If you cannot maintain Concentration, you will play a hit reaction and your attack/reload/spell is interrupted.  We're still defining the system (in fact, I was messing around with the formulae before I sat down), but that's the general idea.

 

In the new scheme, Might affects damage/healing whether it's a single application or over time.  Penetration is something we may or may not use in conjunction with an inherent Penetration value on weapons and other attacks that cause damage.  I'm leaning toward "not" right now.

 

may i ask, can you make a auto level thing? you know, a system that automatically assigns stat points to base stats based on your class? i ask this because in MMORPG's i always manage to find a way to screw myself over by not properly allocating my stats in the proper places at the proper time to get the most out of the class that i am playing, this got so bad that i stopped play WRPG's altogether. think sort of like JRPG's, like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest (Dragon Warriors) i am not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to choose their own stat builds, but give the option for the computer to do it for the player who really doesn't understand a thing about stats, and doesn't want to pull a bunch of wiki's trying to learn all of the nuances for each class in order to do well in the game. i don't know if i am saying this right, and i know a lot of WRPG purists are going to get angry and the idea of this, but i really want to enjoy the game, and i won't be able to if i am constantly worrying if i allocated my points properly. skill points i don't need any help with, as i generally tend to know what i want in terms of skills.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I still have a minor qualm about one stat (Might) making, say, a Wizard both produce quite damaging spells/non-physical effects AND swinging a mace way harder. I'm fine with some physical feat being checked against EITHER mental power or physical power (for that aspect to be shared -- power is power, after all), but I just feel like any potent character now is ambiguously powerful; it kinda tosses out the physical/mental distinction, is all.

 

A normal wizard with a high Might marching onto the front line to try to dish out damage and take hits like a rogue or a fighter is on a road to Crytown.  Don't get me wrong: if you want to have your wizard do some melee gish mix-ups, Might's a good stat to pump, but you still need a) to hit b) to avoid being hit and c) to roll with it f you do get hit.  Wizards are generally bad at all three of those things.  It's not an insurmountable thing, but if your wizard has a choice between casting a damaging spell (which they are accurate/good at) or swinging a mace while standing toe-to-toe with a barbarian (which they are not good at), it's usually going to be more advantageous use of time to do the former.

[ItinerantNomad]

With the character screen, the records column doesn't seem to be near as important as the rest of the information displayed. Something like a minimal inventory screen would make better use of the space, so you could instantly see how different loadouts affected your stats.

 

a great idea. A sort of mini-inventory. Derived stats like defenses, concentrations, damage output and anything else to help deliver the information quickly without having to switch over multiple screens would be ideal. that way you can make informed decisions quickly without having to hunt for the information you need.

[LiK]

Are the servers down? I'm trying to get into the Backer Portal but it's not loading. 

[Lephys]

i'm actually glad they're moving away from strength. as it stands, a majority of the attributes already describe physical characteristics of the PC (dex, perception). We need more abstract words like "might" to be used. You can either be a mighty wizard or a mighty barbarian. neither really defines you more than necessary.

You're completely avoiding the fact that both things (brute strength and magical/mental potency) are still represented in the game, in the form of physical punches/weapon swings as opposed to magical spell energies/forces. Thus, I'd say define "necessary." You can be a mighty Wizard or a mighty Barbarian, and they're basically the same thing, with the exception of class.

 

Or, to put it another way, any time you make a brutishly powerful Barbarian, you're ALSO making the most magically/non-physically powerful Barbarian there is. And any time you make a magically phenomenal Wizard, you're ALSO making the most physically powerful/damaging Wizard there is. You cannot make a Wizard who is less damaging with spells, but more damaging with a sword (like a battle-mage hybrid), or vice versa.

 

Furthermore, if the Barbarian simply can't use any non-physical/magical attacks, because of his class, then the whole thing's kind of lopsided unless the Wizard also can't use physical attacks (which we know isn't true). It could be said that "well, because of his class, the Wizard's always going to be less capable/deadly with a physical weapon than other classes, anyway." But then, what's the point in allowing the versatility of allowing your Wizard to be more focused on physical arms and armor, or more focused on magic, in the first place?

 

It's... a little strange, really. It's like an unwanted side effect, because I'm pretty sure the main purpose of having a single stat affect damage is not to marry together physical and magical capabilities.

 

I'm very much in agreement with Valorian's proposal:

 

I prefer the new attribute (effects), although I'd rather see strength than might.

 

I'd shuffle effects a bit:

 

Strength (or Might): +damage for physical attacks, area of effect and duration for magical attacks

 

Intellect: +healing and damage for magical attacks, area of effect and duration for physical attacks

 

And even:

 

Dexterity: +accuracy for physical attacks, +penetration and interrupt for magical attacks

 

Perception: +accuracy for magical attacks, +penetration and interrupt for physical attacks

 

 

 

This way everything is covered and some diversity is achieved.

 

An "iconic" wizard with high Intellect and Perception, but mediocre Strength and Dexterity, will deal lots of damage and be very accurate with his spells.

Once he switches to fighting with weapons.. he will be bad.

In the current system he needs Might and Dexterity for magical damage and accuracy, but these attributes also affect damage and accuracy with weapons.

 

I guess I'd just like attributes to differentiate physical and magical attacks and reflect their uniqueness.

It's not even changing the stats to do different things for different classes. They simply affect attack types in different ways. Basically, you're always dealing with the same set of stat effects, and all the stats are useful in some way to every character type, and yet the distinction between physical and magical capabilities is maintained, instead of your 20 Might Wizard hitting like a Mack truck with a mace WHILE hurling Thor-quality lightning at everyone around.

[DaWu]

very nice update. love the graphics and the ui. keep it coming!

[roguefrog]

Ahhh,  that character sheet brings me back.

[Sensuki]

I like the new attributes. Good job.

[Osvir]

Amazing!! Loving it! <3

Do I spot re-usable set-pieces in the ruins scene (pillars)? I have to wonder if that could play a part in potential modding?   

The architecture is 3D objects/constructs?

The character sheet looks great as well, like all them numbers and reputation and titles and the whole layout. But I have to admit, I get inspired and get ideas.... scroll bar or tabs (with animated page turning) for different aspects of the character? (purely immersive, scroll bar looks odd on a stacked sheet of papers, I really like the concept but the scroll bar looks ill-placed).

EDIT:

OR each piece of paper is a character sheet ofc! And when you switch to another character sheet you get page turning? (Start off with 1 page, 1 character. 2 pages, 2 characters etc.etc.)

Edited January 15, 2014 by Osvir

[Gumbercules]

 

i'm actually glad they're moving away from strength. as it stands, a majority of the attributes already describe physical characteristics of the PC (dex, perception). We need more abstract words like "might" to be used. You can either be a mighty wizard or a mighty barbarian. neither really defines you more than necessary.

You're completely avoiding the fact that both things (brute strength and magical/mental potency) are still represented in the game, in the form of physical punches/weapon swings as opposed to magical spell energies/forces. Thus, I'd say define "necessary." You can be a mighty Wizard or a mighty Barbarian, and they're basically the same thing, with the exception of class.

 

Or, to put it another way, any time you make a brutishly powerful Barbarian, you're ALSO making the most magically/non-physically powerful Barbarian there is. And any time you make a magically phenomenal Wizard, you're ALSO making the most physically powerful/damaging Wizard there is. You cannot make a Wizard who is less damaging with spells, but more damaging with a sword (like a battle-mage hybrid), or vice versa.

 

Furthermore, if the Barbarian simply can't use any non-physical/magical attacks, because of his class, then the whole thing's kind of lopsided unless the Wizard also can't use physical attacks (which we know isn't true). It could be said that "well, because of his class, the Wizard's always going to be less capable/deadly with a physical weapon than other classes, anyway." But then, what's the point in allowing the versatility of allowing your Wizard to be more focused on physical arms and armor, or more focused on magic, in the first place?

 

It's... a little strange, really. It's like an unwanted side effect, because I'm pretty sure the main purpose of having a single stat affect damage is not to marry together physical and magical capabilities.

 

I'm very much in agreement with Valorian's proposal:

 

I prefer the new attribute (effects), although I'd rather see strength than might.

 

I'd shuffle effects a bit:

 

Strength (or Might): +damage for physical attacks, area of effect and duration for magical attacks

 

Intellect: +healing and damage for magical attacks, area of effect and duration for physical attacks

 

And even:

 

Dexterity: +accuracy for physical attacks, +penetration and interrupt for magical attacks

 

Perception: +accuracy for magical attacks, +penetration and interrupt for physical attacks

 

 

 

This way everything is covered and some diversity is achieved.

 

An "iconic" wizard with high Intellect and Perception, but mediocre Strength and Dexterity, will deal lots of damage and be very accurate with his spells.

Once he switches to fighting with weapons.. he will be bad.

In the current system he needs Might and Dexterity for magical damage and accuracy, but these attributes also affect damage and accuracy with weapons.

 

I guess I'd just like attributes to differentiate physical and magical attacks and reflect their uniqueness.

It's not even changing the stats to do different things for different classes. They simply affect attack types in different ways. Basically, you're always dealing with the same set of stat effects, and all the stats are useful in some way to every character type, and yet the distinction between physical and magical capabilities is maintained, instead of your 20 Might Wizard hitting like a Mack truck with a mace WHILE hurling Thor-quality lightning at everyone around.

 

 

Keep in mind that the distinction between magical and non-magical is less absolute in PoE than in many RPGs. Every class uses soul powers, and although some may be more traditionally "magical" than others, everyone will be doing larger than life things that wouldn't necessarily feel right if you tried to classify them as purely mundane. With that kind of granularity, a binary magical/non-magical only system would feel at least as artificial as lumping everything together, plus it would be a pain to sort and balance.

[TRoar]

It's looking seriously great!

 

At this point my only graphical polish concern are animations. We haven't seen much of the animations, so I may be concerned about nothing, but please maintain the high standards. I say this, not because I'm a graphics type, but because of the lack of consistency between animations in the IE games. BG2 reused animations and models from BG while introducing new and much improved ones, and it really stood out. You guys, I hope, have the opportunity now to follow the 'do it right, do it once' way of thinking. I think this game is going to age very well!

 

Well done, Obsidian.

 

 

 

With the character screen, the records column doesn't seem to be near as important as the rest of the information displayed. Something like a minimal inventory screen would make better use of the space, so you could instantly see how different loadouts affected your stats.

 

a great idea. A sort of mini-inventory. Derived stats like defenses, concentrations, damage output and anything else to help deliver the information quickly without having to switch over multiple screens would be ideal. that way you can make informed decisions quickly without having to hunt for the information you need.

 

BG:EE and BG2:EE incorporated that kind of info into the inventory screen. Probably would be nicer if it was integrated into the record screen to save doubling up the info, but an idea nevertheless... Maybe it would be less busy if it was shown in the inventory? Food for thought...

Edited January 15, 2014 by TRoar

[Lephys]

A normal wizard with a high Might marching onto the front line to try to dish out damage and take hits like a rogue or a fighter is on a road to Crytown.  Don't get me wrong: if you want to have your wizard do some melee gish mix-ups, Might's a good stat to pump, but you still need a) to hit b) to avoid being hit and c) to roll with it f you do get hit.  Wizards are generally bad at all three of those things.  It's not an insurmountable thing, but if your wizard has a choice between casting a damaging spell (which they are accurate/good at) or swinging a mace while standing toe-to-toe with a barbarian (which they are not good at), it's usually going to be more advantageous use of time to do the former.

I understand that. I didn't mean to suggest that high Might makes the Wizard too combat viable. But, that sort of supports my point, err... qualm? It seems to serve even less of a point for Might to boost the Wizard's physical damage, since it doesn't really make him any more viable.

 

Like I said, the sheer fact that Might affects both attack types at the same time for every character is a lot more of an unwanted, quirky side effect than it is a problem. I don't think it screws up the system or is super unfair. It just seems really... arbitrary. Again, if each class could only use one or the other (physical or non-physical attacks), then the quirk would cease to exist.

 

Then, there's the matter of non-combat stat checks. If there's a scripted interaction, and a character has to hold up a collapsing door, for example, and it just checks Might, then even the arcanely powerful Wizard passes, even though he has no telekinetic-type spell prepared or anything (or couldn't cast one that quickly, etc.). Either the check seems to represent that he's automatically super-beefy and physically capable just because he's magically mighty, OR you forgo such situations/checks and we lose that little aspect of things.

 

The only way to fix that particular thing is to add in something that distinguishes the two aspects of power once again, or simply split the stat effect (which doesn't result in any additional entities.)

[Starburst]

Hmm, did anyone else try to scroll the stats in the UI screenshot?

 

It's all looking great, guys!

[keysersoze]

Great job on the Character UI, great to see the information directly without having to push an unnecessary button / tooltip 

[Lephys]

Keep in mind that the distinction between magical and non-magical is less absolute in PoE than in many RPGs. Every class uses soul powers, and although some may be more traditionally "magical" than others, everyone will be doing larger than life things that wouldn't necessarily feel right if you tried to classify them as purely mundane.

Then there's a class distinction. Either way, the game is representing that a distinction exists, so you still end up with a stat affecting both aspects, rather than the game just merging them into one aspect.

 

I mean, everyone uses their soul powers in different ways. Fighters directly augment their physical capabilities resulting in soul-powered, though still physical in type, attacks. Everyone doesn't just run around doing everything with ambiguous Soul-Magic telekinesis. The Wizard manifest his power via specific spells from his grimoire, so he can't just throw a tree without casting a "Throw Tree" spell, or an "Augment Strength" spell. But then, if he casts a spell that just boosts his "strength" stat, then it just boosts his Might. So, he'd be simply boosting his ability to boost his ability, because Might = magic potency. But then, he's still not capable of throwing a tree, without casting a spell to do it, because he's not a Fighter who just manifests his energy into physical ability enhancements.

 

If Might just affected soul power, then that would mean no one ever does anything without using soul power. In other words, you could not have a traditional "Strength" check, even though people still obviously have physical bodies and non-soul-powered capabilities. Does a Wizard swing his weapon with soul-power, or does he just use his arm? If so, Might wouldn't apply, and would only apply to a Fighter. So then, you might as well have per-class specific effects for each stat.

 

Do you see the imbalanced equation, there? The little bit that's always left floating around where it doesn't really belong, either way you go?

 

Sure, it's not the end of the world if it stays, but I don't think it's the intent of the system for that particular quirk to exist. It's more like an unwanted side effect. I simply have an interest in eliminating it, if possible, without detrimenting the rest of the system (which is pretty great). I don't expect everyone to be so interested in this little puzzle, but I'm fairly certain that the puzzle at least exists.

[Sensuki]

I'm also okay with percentile modifiers and I like the Character Record UI.

 

Any updates to UI scaling ? Will it just stay the same size or will it scale up ?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

 

A normal wizard with a high Might marching onto the front line to try to dish out damage and take hits like a rogue or a fighter is on a road to Crytown.  Don't get me wrong: if you want to have your wizard do some melee gish mix-ups, Might's a good stat to pump, but you still need a) to hit b) to avoid being hit and c) to roll with it f you do get hit.  Wizards are generally bad at all three of those things.  It's not an insurmountable thing, but if your wizard has a choice between casting a damaging spell (which they are accurate/good at) or swinging a mace while standing toe-to-toe with a barbarian (which they are not good at), it's usually going to be more advantageous use of time to do the former.

 

 

One of the advantages of having different attributes governing physical and magical accuracy/damage, apart from important RP reasons, is to be able to fine-tune balance between physical and magical attacks.

 

If all damage is affected by Might and all accuracy by Dexterity, you can't adjust attribute-enhancing spells/talents/items with specifically physical or magical damage/accuracy in mind.

[fortuntek]

All this stat theory talk sounds like a whole lot of jargon to me, lacking context (me no understandy!) but I will say this: the idea that my Clobbermonster BruteFace guy gains magical damage (regardless of whether or not he can use it) along with physical damage relative to his Might stat, and that my Bearded SpellSlinger McFrail also gains a beefier sword arm (however clumsily squishy he remains) as his spellcasting gets stronger... is just weird. 

That said....

I grudgingly support it anyway if it makes sense from a gameplay perspective and is better in playtesting, even if my brain twitches at all of my character concepts it ruins.

Edited January 15, 2014 by fortuntek

[gandalf.nho]

Nice UI

 

 

And noted I not received my KS badge yet