Hidden Experience

[Sir Chaox]

 

Edit: I just read someone suggesting this; we should keep this as a separate gameplay option instead of incorporating it into Expert Mode. This is really more for roleplayers specifically than for expert players; some experts will want to see those numbers.

For what it's worth, Expert Mode is essentially a set of various option values that can be toggled on and off. In other words, apparently, we'll be able to access all or most of those values individually and toggle them as we see fit.

 

I only say that because I wasn't sure if the suggestion you read was mine for the Hidden Experience thing to be an Expert-Mode-type option. I just meant, that style of option, is all.

 

(Basically, this was just in case you didn't know we'd have a lot of individual toggle flexibility on options.)

 

 

I don't think it was your post, Lephys, but I can't remember who's it was, yesterday was so long ago and all...

 

Yeah, I did not know that. I thought Expert Mode was an all-or-nothing deal. Unless you mean in normal mode we can toggle them all on if we wanted but expert mode toggles them on permanently? I guess it doesn't matter really, but doesn't seem much like an expert mode if we can just turn it off whenever we wanted to. Sounds more like a preset of preferences.

[Lephys]

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how it works, technically, but I think "Expert Mode" is simply a group of preferences, set on. But then, many (if not all) of those will be accessible to toggle individually. Josh talked about how they want us to be able to customize individual things, especially things like "display damage numbers on-screen" and how verbose to have journal entries, etc. So... hidden experience seemed to fit in amongst that stuff, as something you could toggle without actually having to turn on all of Expert Mode just to get it. But, it could also be within the Expert Mode preferences group. 8P

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Ultimately, I don't believe it will matter much. I created this thread mostly as a creative discussion on player motivation in cRPGs. Before the IE games, and subsequent NWN 1 & 2, I rarely played games in a role-playing or "in character" fashion. My choices were munchkin and mechanically motivated. Given the spirit and nature of Project: Eternity, I thought it might be intriguing to consider game-play options which would lend gameplay to a more "in-character" play-style.

 

*Lo, I have now ascended to theurgy. I think this is only the third or fourth board I've ever had that many posts. I think that might mean I'm a bit eager for this game.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Mr. Magniloquent

[Sir Chaox]

I think some people should have special blind mode where the game displays only black screen to not reveal anything.

...

[Jumble Murdersense]

I actually really dislike the idea and don't really see why its necessary. It wont stop people from metagaming if they want to, because the xp values are going to be in the game files for people to post on the internet anyway. Making it a toggle isn't as simple of an idea either because its going to add a lot of QA time to make sure that the exp is actually hidden(or not) for every reward in the game, and lets face it QA tends to be Obsidians weak point. I think its just a lot of fussing for no real effect, people who want to metagame will find a way there's no reason to hold everyone's hands to try and stop a few from fretting over their choices.

 

I think you miss the point: Having this optional hurts no one.

 

As someone else mentioned implementing this wouldn't be hard at all; it's just a global toggle—yes show xp, no hide xp. It's not like they have to manually find every instance of xp exclamation and flag it to be hidden if the option is on; that would be ridiculous. Imagine it being no different from the show/hide blood toggle that you get in so, so many games.

[Hassat Hunter]

I think some people miss the point, which is not that surprising really.

 

It's not FOR meta-gamers. It's not MEANT to detract meta-gamers.

It's just for those of us, that like to rollplay to completely take away *any and all* way for XP to sway our roleplaying ways by learning 'hey, I do it my way, but I get severly punished for it, I'm going to switch my ways'.

 

Also, in a well-coded game, it shouldn't take too much effort to do, the "you've gained X XP" would be the same function each and everytime, so only a few lines there need to be added, along with the character overview. It's not like they type 'you've gained X XP" manually in each conversation and all those need to get checks for this kind of function...

[Lephys]

I think some people miss the point, which is not that surprising really.

 

It's not FOR meta-gamers. It's not MEANT to detract meta-gamers.

Oh, didn't you get the memo? If you make a meta-gaming-related suggestion, you're just trying to make the game more accessible... fighting the good fight. But if you make an RP-related suggestion, you're trying to tell everyone how to play their game, even if it's just a suggestion for an option...

 

Why are we so evil, and why can't we change? *stares hopelessly at own hands*

 

[Pipyui]

I like neoxxxx's idea on page one absolutely, where missed xp opportunities are hidden from the player.

 

The idea of hiding all experience feedback from the player I'm less keen to.  I'm not against the idea of having an option for it, and I think I can understand the intentions behind it, but the thought of not having an xp bar frightens - and frankly, baffles - me.  It feels like I'm throwing away the game for the RP.

[Ffordesoon]

This seems to me like a solution to a nonexistent problem. I mean, if there are really people who don't want to see their XP gain for some reason, it seems easy enough to implement a toggle for that, so I'm for pleasing those folks. But wasn't the whole point of lashing XP gain to quest completion to prevent metagaming? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get the same amount of XP no matter how you finish a quest? If that's the case, where's the temptation to metagame?

 

Literally the only reason for this I can imagine is to discourage completionist behavior, and I'm not sure it would accomplish that goal. Inveterate completionists will be completionists no matter what, and I'm not sure folks who aren't completionists would act any differently than they already do.

 

If non-completionists feel the need to do quests they don't care about just to get XP, either they're attempting to beat optional encounters earlier than they should, or the difficulty of the main quest isn't balanced correctly. If it's the latter, the main quest needs rebalancing. If it's the former, there could be an error in player messaging, or there needs to be another way to earn XP (e.g. New Vegas' repeatable challenges), or the design is working as intended and the players have decided that beating an optional encounter is worth a little metagaming. In none of those cases would hiding XP gain solve any problems.

 

Again, I'm abstractly for this toggle. I just don't see what having it would accomplish.

 

EDIT: That being said, hiding missed XP opportunities from the player is absolutely a good idea. I can't be the only one who was a little bit irritated by all the "Quest Failed" notices that appeared when you killed someone important in New Vegas.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Ffordesoon

[Lephys]

This seems to me like a solution to a nonexistent problem.

See, I don't even think it's claiming to be a solution to anything. Any more than having the color blue in the armor/clothing dye-color options is solving the problem of the absence of blue.

 

It's just something that could actually be interesting. I honestly can't say exactly how I'd feel about it, and would be curious to try it out to see how it affects my gameplay. The idea is very interesting, as simply an option for the sake of interest. Especially since it'd probably be quite easy to implement (it's not a matter of changing calculations and such, but rather, information display/conveyance.)

[Sir Chaox]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get the same amount of XP no matter how you finish a quest?

 

Good question, one that has been in debate over here.

 

But basically it is more what Lephys just said; it is an interesting way to play the game. I mean, you'd never know when you're about to level up. So you end up not caring at all about when it happens (at least I wouldn't). Maybe it would focus you more on the characters and quests or maybe it will have no real effect at all. I can't really tell until I try it! 

[Ffordesoon]

Fair enough, then. I do agree that it's an interesting idea, and I am all for anything that makes the content the point.

[Pipyui]

It does seem easy enough from a programmer's perspective, it seems fairly interesting, and I have no argument against it.  I just fear that my life is empty without an xp bar.

 

I must confess that I'm a little confused.  I like to imagine that I'm fairly adept at extricating my own predispositions from an issue in order to understand it from multiple perspectives, even when I find myself attached to one side in particular.  And yet despite understanding the appeal of completely hidden xp, I find I cannot fit myself into the mindset personally.  There's something about it that rejects my mind, rather, there's a part of it that my mind rejects - like a rock rejects the pull of a stream, diverting thought around it subtly and almost unconsciously, trying to convince me it isn't there.  But lo, if I look closely, I think I see what deflects my imagination: an RPG without experience, without a gauge by which to measure my PC's personal developement and success, remindes me sorta of ... of ...... real life, and my insecurities associated with it.

 

Glad we got past that hurdle.  I'm gonna need a drink.  A stiff one.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Pipyui

[Sir Chaox]

It does seem easy enough from a programmer's perspective, it seems fairly interesting, and I have no argument against it.  I just fear that my life is empty without an xp bar.

 

I must confess that I'm a little confused.  I like to imagine that I'm fairly adept at extricating my own predispositions from an issue in order to understand it from multiple perspectives, even when I find myself attached to one side in particular.  And yet despite understanding the appeal of completely hidden xp, I find I cannot fit myself into the mindset personally.  There's something about it that rejects my mind, rather, there's a part of it that my mind rejects - like a rock rejects the pull of a stream, diverting thought around it subtly and almost unconsciously, trying to convince me it isn't there.  But lo, if I look closely, I think I see what deflects my imagination: an RPG without experience, without a gauge by which to measure my PC's personal developement and success, remindes me sorta of ... of ...... real life, and my insecurities associated with it.

 

Glad we got past that hurdle.  I'm gonna need a drink.  A stiff one.

 

So... We're cool?

[Jobby]

I don't actually see the point, surely ur char sheet will display experience therefore it will simply be a case of looking at the char sheet after every quest/dialogue to see how much exp you gained, besides, surely it makes sense for it to be transparent as to when and for what you gained exp for?

 

Again I'm not hugely fussed one way or the other it just seems like a bit of a superfluous feature.

[Hassat Hunter]

Ehm, that's hidden too. Or the entire point is moot.

 

And yes, there is no problem, just a RP-option request. Features, not fixes.

 

As for XP, I think resolutions give the same XP (whichever means to resolve them) however choices can mean several different resolutions. Quest A can give 500, opposing quest (which cannot be done with A) B gives 600. The meta-gamer will obviously go to B, but with this you simply don't know and choice based on which you want to do, or think your character will do. And the disrepency might be made up later along the line, or be because it's a longer quest, or have a 100XP bonus.

Objective XP is good, but that doesn't mean all resolutions of quests should give them same reward (see also; Deus Ex, Vampire Bloodlines), albeit without the V:B stealthbonusses.

[teknoman2]

in IWD2 when you get xp for quests it just says "the party has gained experience" but not how much. it did not bother me in the slightest.

as for power players, even if you dont have a message saying "you get this much xp", they will just look at their character sheet and see how much it was, since this king of players keep a constant track of the character's xp

[JFSOCC]

If I don't know that I'm 20xp away from getting a level which allows me to do something I intend to do more easily, I might choose to solve my problems differently, rather than use game knowledge and wait for a small bit till I get the level. In this way, knowledge of experience affects my in-game behaviour. I think it would be interesting (though I'd have to try it first) because I will have to do more roleplaying and less rollplaying.

Edited January 28, 2014 by JFSOCC

[IndiraLightfoot]

I think it would be interesting (though I'd have to try it first) because I will have to do more roleplaying and less rollplaying.

Very elegantly put! I'd love to have try it too. I reckon, this option of hidden experience should be in as a toggle in a mode or something, just because I'm curious how it all plays out.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It does seem easy enough from a programmer's perspective, it seems fairly interesting, and I have no argument against it.  I just fear that my life is empty without an xp bar.

 

I must confess that I'm a little confused.  I like to imagine that I'm fairly adept at extricating my own predispositions from an issue in order to understand it from multiple perspectives, even when I find myself attached to one side in particular.  And yet despite understanding the appeal of completely hidden xp, I find I cannot fit myself into the mindset personally.  There's something about it that rejects my mind, rather, there's a part of it that my mind rejects - like a rock rejects the pull of a stream, diverting thought around it subtly and almost unconsciously, trying to convince me it isn't there.  But lo, if I look closely, I think I see what deflects my imagination: an RPG without experience, without a gauge by which to measure my PC's personal developement and success, remindes me sorta of ... of ...... real life, and my insecurities associated with it.

 

Glad we got past that hurdle.  I'm gonna need a drink.  A stiff one.

 

Hahahaha! Thank you for this. A telling quip of introspection, no doubt.

 

If I don't know that I'm 20xp away from getting a level which allows me to do something I intend to do more easily, I might choose to solve my problems differently, rather than use game knowledge and wait for a small bit till I get the level. In this way, knowledge of experience affects my in-game behaviour. I think it would be interesting (though I'd have to try it first) because I will have to do more roleplaying and less rollplaying.

 

Precisely.

[Jobby]

Meh, let the metagamers metagame I say, If your Rping will isn't strong enough to play the game how you'd like because there's information on screen.. well then you're not a very good RPer

[Sir Chaox]

Meh, let the metagamers metagame I say, If your Rping will isn't strong enough to play the game how you'd like because there's information on screen.. well then you're not a very good RPer

 

Although I would agree that XP numbers should not necessarily sway a person from RPing, I think it would be helpful to have the option for those that might be (myself included).

 

in IWD2 when you get xp for quests it just says "the party has gained experience" but not how much. it did not bother me in the slightest.

 

Not sure if this was the original intention or already suggested in this thread, but this would be nice to see in PE as well; the game will tell you when your party has received experience, and only the numbers are omitted (from both the bottom log and the character screens). It would be nice to know when the game is rewarding XP during quests and encounters (since the XP system is accomplishment-based, we won't be seeing a ton of these messages all the time). I guess I'm only asking for this because I want to know how intelligently designed their XP system is.

[JFSOCC]

Meh, let the metagamers metagame I say, If your Rping will isn't strong enough to play the game how you'd like because there's information on screen.. well then you're not a very good RPer

That's a tired old argument. Let's name it "The Willpower" argument. And call it for what it is: a fallacy.

 

The Willpower fallacy states that a design shouldn't be better, options shouldn't be available, because the issue at hand can be solved by having a superior mindset. All you need a strong backbone, and you won't succumb to degenerate behaviour of any kind.

Let's ignore the large body of evidence suggesting that people aren't as in control of their behaviour as they like to think. The large body of evidence showing people will pick less enjoyable strategies if they know these lead to better or easier results.

We don't need a feature where players can opt-out the subconscious incentives, because really what they need is more willpower.

 

What bull****.

The less meta-gaming information I have, the better I can roleplay. That has nothing to do with willpower or a strong backbone. Better yet, including the feature makes the argument moot; If you believe that willpower is all you need, you don't have to turn off anything. If you don't mind the meta-gaming information, you don't have to turn off anything. But if you, like me, want to play out a story as you imagine you would without knowing you just passed an intimidation check, you can.

[Jobby]

I'm very surprised that my tongue in cheek point appears to have riled you but at the end of the day its true, whats the point in evening attempting to RP if that requires everything being hidden from you so you can't "subconciously re-load" and try again for a better reward.

 

Sorry dude but it is definitely a case of willpower (or desire to stick with the personality you are RPing over reward), to add to this it's not like your going to get 300XP for completing a quest in a certain way and the game will say "this is what you could have had!"

 

Don't get me wrong I have no issues with this being implemented I'm just quite shocked at how passionately people feel about hiding info from the player, which for me personally is a bad thing.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Jobby

[milczyciel]

 

Meh, let the metagamers metagame I say, If your Rping will isn't strong enough to play the game how you'd like because there's information on screen.. well then you're not a very good RPer

That's a tired old argument. Let's name it "The Willpower" argument. And call it for what it is: a fallacy.

 

The Willpower fallacy states that a design shouldn't be better, options shouldn't be available, because the issue at hand can be solved by having a superior mindset. All you need a strong backbone, and you won't succumb to degenerate behaviour of any kind.

Let's ignore the large body of evidence suggesting that people aren't as in control of their behaviour as they like to think. The large body of evidence showing people will pick less enjoyable strategies if they know these lead to better or easier results.

We don't need a feature where players can opt-out the subconscious incentives, because really what they need is more willpower.

 

What bull****.

The less meta-gaming information I have, the better I can roleplay. That has nothing to do with willpower or a strong backbone. Better yet, including the feature makes the argument moot; If you believe that willpower is all you need, you don't have to turn off anything. If you don't mind the meta-gaming information, you don't have to turn off anything. But if you, like me, want to play out a story as you imagine you would without knowing you just passed an intimidation check, you can.

This... so much! I'm puzzled by just how strong I feel about things You just said. I'm aware I'm overacting, but if I would be a lesser man, then I'd create another 5 accounts just so I could give it another 5 likes, for what You just pointed out, and what it made me realize.

In times before internet, when I could rely only on information exchanged with a friend or two and not 100% accurate and complete walkthrough in printed magazines were the times, when my gaming experience and roleplaying was more satisfying. 

 

Fallout 2, BGII and Arcanum are probably the last titles I played without using overwhelming, spoiler heavy intel from "teh internetz" thanks to which those games kept higher replay value even with my stupid habit of quicksaving before any dialog (and then reloading it until I knew every possible -at the moment- outcome). And after thinking about JFSOCC arguments I must question my nostalgia and rethink at least few charges I brought against nowadays cRPGs (not necessarily here).

 

But before I leave to ponder those questions with a cup of fine tea, I have to ask for a basic clarification, because somehow I missed that one and it's kinda fundamental (yes, I'm ashamed of my ignorance). Does experience points reward vary, depending on picked skill checks, stats and different dialog lines? Because if so, I'll still feel conditioned to do them in most "rewarding" way. Obviously there's some serious mismanagement with my "Will Power" level.

 

Thanks in advance

Edited January 28, 2014 by milczyciel