Mega-Dungeon

[JFSOCC]

 

Dungeon Crawlers existed before Diablo.

I think most people use Diablo because they know 98% of the gaming population will know the reference.

 

Diablo was the first dungeon crawler marketed as an RPG. I blame blizzard for the widespread misunderstanding of what "RPG elements" are.

Hint: it's not levelling up abilities and skills. Hint2: The key is in the name, ROLE PLAYING game.

 

anyway, pet peeves aside.

 

I'd like a dungeon where the top levels (1-3) are fairly generic

then from 4 onwards, there is a visual narrative drawing you in. Something really curious and interesting, which isn't explicitly mentioned, but beckons you on. (what is it I hear lurking in the deep? What is this device which seems to snake itself through several dungeon levels? Why are groups of creatures held up around its outcrops?)

around level 10 that should be mostly resolved. By then, however you are presented with a new mystery flowing forth from the previous.

level 15 could hint that there might be more of this elsewhere in the world.

 

What I think is important, and something that in my experience isn't done right, is pacing. I want tense combat, sure, but I don't want tense combat followed up by tense combat, with a dollop of even more tense combat, maybe interspersed with traps... and combat.

 

I want to have time for wonder. Meaning alcoves with pretty caves, a hot spring where you can rest nearby, underground garden with bioluminescent plants, a pond with bioluminescent fish, an underground library with undecipherable arcane writings, a thriving underground culture near level 3.

Stuff like that.

Intersperse these and I will hold out much longer than I usually do. Often I get filled with dread doing dungeons, because, oh great, another wave of enemies.

 

For me that's decidedly not fun.

 

so TL;DR:

Pacing

Visual Narrative

Mystery

 

Blizzard ruined the term RPG with Diablo.

[neo6874]

I think it would be pretty awesome if the Mega Dungeon were kind of like a derelict city, in function. Obviously not a quest hub, but... you know, kind of like the Mines of Moria in the Lord of the Rings. Sure, there's lots of old tombs and loot, and lots of things to slay that are infesting the place. But, there's also a lot of culture and ties to other things in the world. I mean... people used to live there/operate there. It's not just some treasury where they put a bunch of stuff and then left, then monsters moved in.

 

I like the comparison, but Moria is still "too new" I think -- there is still "active knowledge" of Khazad Dum during the time when Frodo et. al. are forced to travel through it (that is - it's not some forgotten ruin that is only referenced in myth and legend).

 

 

I'd rather see it as something like what was described by Josh (I think?) -- you're pretty much told to stay away, because of the legends that surround the temple (or whatever it was) ... so after you finish off the bad guy (when you're there for the story), there should be a draw to go ever deeper, just for the sake of it.  Don't get me wrong - treasure and traps and puzzles and whatever else they throw down there will be fun too ... but I'd rather see it as "get to level 5, answer one question ... and get two more" rather than "get to level 5, get something cool".

[Lephys]

I wasn't meaning to suggest that we make the dungeon simply "like the Mines of Moria." I was more making the comparison in that it was born as a place with a populous and a culture, and that whatever state it's in now, years and years and years after whatever happened to it initially, it all stemmed from that origin.

 

It's a different animal from just "here are some caves that smugglers used to store stuff in, but then they all died and now it's overrun with baddies."

 

Granted, it's not going to be all a big homogenous thing. It's a bit like layers of the grand canyon. Different causes at different points in time (and stemming from different particular sources -- magic research that was going on in the original civilization, some cult that moved in years later and summoned something in the dungeon, someone sealing away an entire section because they deem it too dangerous, etc.).

 

But, I just mean that, in general, it's kind of a unique animal, like I said. Especially a dungeon of this size. It'd be different if it were just a single labyrinth of rooms beneath a keep or something. There's a lot of room for reactivity and various world lore interactions with the place, is all.

[neo6874]

Yeah, I see where you were getting at now -- I got hung up on your Moria example because it happened "recently" in the history/legends of Middle Earth, whereas Od Nua seems to have been completely lost to time, and people will just refer to it as "an evil place", rather than actually knowing what happened there.

Edited January 3, 2014 by neo6874

[Lephys]

No worries. Those were valid points regarding my example.

 

I try my best to come up with examples that address only the one thing I'm trying to point out, but I find it difficult to do so.

 

Mostly I was just thinking about the layered aspect to something like that.

 

A good example would be if some people initially built the place, but died off due to something. Then, some time later, a different people moved into the "ruins" (still structurally sound, but abandoned and ill-kept) and used them to their own end, not comprehending everything in there (maybe some altar to a specific deity became a meeting table/dining table, etc.). So, there's old, still-unknown stuff about the place now, PLUS whatever the new people bring. Hell, there could be some treasure room that's hidden, and the people living there now never even discover it. Then, they all get killed by some cult/group following some dark-magic users (cliche, I know) who are after the power of that altar that the current people know nothing about. Etc. Now THOSE people move in for a bit and try summoning some dark thing at that altar that taints the... ehh, energy there.

 

Or, maybe people set up experiments there that backfired, resulting in all their deaths and some "mutated" (for lack of a better word) souls ended up forming and populating the place.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that, unlike with a much simpler location (like a cave), to which it would be mildly silly to tie a bunch of other stuff into ("Oh, it turns out 17 different world quests/stories throughout the game center around this one cave!"), there's a lot more room for something like a 15-level ruin to actually have affiliation with various other things in the world, from various sources and various time periods. Which is pretty awesome, to me.

[Failion]

I'm thinking the mega dungeon could have a reason for why it is so deep. A experiment gone wrong. Something that should of not been touched by anyone or thing. Like time travel or deep rock mining. Or there could be no reason why its so deep. This leaves its more open to art and design choices. 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I want an updated Durlag's Tower. Lethal traps. Lots of lethal traps. Coherence and plausibility for both the contents of each floor and their connection to eachother. Riddles. Puzzles. I'm looking for equal parts awe and terror.

[neo6874]

I'm thinking the mega dungeon could have a reason for why it is so deep. A experiment gone wrong. Something that should of not been touched by anyone or thing. Like time travel or deep rock mining. Or there could be no reason why its so deep. This leaves its more open to art and design choices. 

 

They delved too deep and greedily in their pursuit of Mithra... oh wait, wrong creepy endless dungeon .

 

Actually, "it was a city" is a pretty good reason to make it deep from the get go -- I mean, Baldur's Gate is what, 5 or 6 areas? So these guys built their city vertically rather than horizontally for some reason... 

[redneckdevil]

tbh I wouldn't mind of the bottom of the dungeon was something akin to a ruby weapon from ff7. And hold on and let me explain lol. What I mean is that its something of a higher challenge than the vanilla bbeg at the end of the main quest. It could be an ingame something for to do after the main quest (if they let u continue on) or something for people doing everything and need that extra challenge.

It could be gold stuff for at the bottom is some bbeg that was famous in the past that people use that persons name in bedtime stories to scare children to act right. Said person could have been sealed or in a suspended stance that atm they are of no threat but can be a major major threat in said future. It could be us that actualy freed this bbeg feom his sealed prison in which he had no chance of escaping or soooo many other things.

 

I want this place to give us a closer ties to the lore of said world like how morrowind gave us the dwermer ruins to explore and such.

[PIP-Clownboy]

Don't want: Durlag's Borefest. Watcher's Keep wasn't much better.

 

Want: TOEE. Non-linearity (entrances and quests/story) especially. 

[Dark Elf]

You sometimes wonder what creatures in dungeons do all day besides standing in strategic positions battle axe in hand. Now, dungeons come in many flavours, but many serve as the living quarters for goblinoids and whatever creatures. So let there be merchants, non-player characters whose ideas of interacting with you go beyond trying to bash your forehead in, different factions tied into the world at large and all that jazz.  

[Bhallspawn]

 Id rather have short interesting lvls than massive labyrinth full of traps and trash mobs.

[BillyCorgan]

Not a huge fan of this...

 

Ok, sometimes it's good, but the best part of a rpg is the story and the quests. The fights are part of the quests, ok, but just a monster-bashing without other idea... no way or i just play Diablo.

 

So i hope that this "mega dungeon"  will keep a good place in the story line with lot of surprises.

[Jobby]

I love the idea of some sort of ancient location of power that has been colonised and re-colonised over and over again over the millennia, perhaps at some point some dwarfs dug too deep and let in some ancient evils (cliche i know, Tolkien, Arcanum), but the re-colonisation suggestion at least allows for a mosiac of cultures/histories and environments.

 

perhaps simply the power itself was enough to corrupt all living things (not suggesting that the power is evil just that it inherently corrupts), perhaps some levels/locations have relatively recent inhabitants, i.e. necromancers lair, dragons lair, goblin fortress built around the relics of an ancient elven civilization.

 

Perhaps underground lagoons/rivers influenced by the power become "fountains of youth", perhaps the elves are merely decendants of an ancient race that has been touched by this immortality, maybe we could have races/species who still live there who have evolved differently under different conditions..

 

Perhaps it could be the source of all life (garden of eden) or a site of godly wrath (tower of babel).

 

I could go on and on and on lol, the point is it doesn't need to be a boring cave crawl but could be a place of wonderment/amazement/horror all at once and regarding the story thing I'm sure the devs have stated that there will be a self contained story arc within the deeper levels.