Mega-Dungeon

[malolis]

So what sort of levels do people want to see in the mega-dungeon? I'm personally hoping for a good 50-50 mix of monster/traps levels with puzzle levels. Maybe with a few good boss fights. What do you guys think?

[Plutone00]

I hope they don't turn it into another one "kill all enemies, find the floor keys, get to the bottom and defeat boss".

 

Each level of the dungeon has to be distict. It does not have to be unique, but there has to be a reason for each floor to exist besides making the dungeon larger. There should be things to do in the megadungeon other then killing enemies and searching for keys. And finally I'd like the megadungeon to have a purpose other then simply single "bonus dungeon adventure". It probably can't  be offered too large of a role in PoE world, but it would be nice to see it expand beyond "just a very big dungeon out there".

[Monte Carlo]

It needs an eco-system of some description, one which is ideally dynamic and re-stocks after you've cleared a level.

 

This is possibly too ambitious for P:E, but the nearer they get to that ideal the better. I would pay for a DLC dungeon of this type.

[Gfted1]

Id like it to be pretty tough but offer some of the best loot in the game as reward. Puzzles and traps and mini-bosses all leading to a mega-boss at the bottom. I don't expect 15 distinct levels.

[Abel]

I just hope It won't be IWD like.

 

One Folk: Here is the 2 lines scenario to give you a soooooooo subtle reason to explore it: "Ancient place. Nobody knows (and even tried to figure out). Monsters, ancient wizard, undead, grooooarrr, looooooooot"

 

*enter the place*

*hard fight*

*trap*

*hard fight hard fight*

*trap*

*hard fight hard fight hard fight hard fight hard fight hard fight hard fight hard fight hard fight*

*trap trap trap trap trap*

...

 

*3 years later*

 

One Folk: "Oh here you again! Had you fun in this so grrrrrrreat storytelling adventure in the world's lore mysteries?"

 

oO

 

Just this.

[neo6874]

I want it to have ~no~ story whatsoever after the first 1-2 levels (or howevermuch is touched in the main storyline).  It's just "there" and calling to us "because adventure, that's why".

 

But I hope they do it [edit -- the "no next quest" thing] gracefully -- e.g. you finish the quest for the necromancer (or whatever BBEG that's the original hook to get you in there), and tell whoever asked you and then you're DONE with the quest chains.  Sure, you'll have a hook to get back to ... uh, I dunno, Twin Elms (Defiance Bay?) ... but not necessarily a big one.  E.G. cleaning out the Nashkel Mines in BG1 and getting the 1000 GP for it -- "well, time to hit up Beregost and get more +1 arrows" (but you didn't read the letter saying there's a mook in one of hte inns). 

 

IMO, feels more "free" that way -- yeah, you know there's more stuff in front of you, but it's not "quest, quest, quest, quest".  

Edited December 23, 2013 by neo6874

[Stun]

I want Durlag's tower x3.

 

Come to think of it, the levels in Durlag's tower weren't all that distinct from one another. Nor did the dungeon have too many puzzles, or any sort of eco-system. It was just.... really cool. It had the atmosphere. And the loot. And a decent story.

 

Edit: it also had rooms and corridors. I hope the Mega dungeon here has that. I'd rather not have it be all cavernous, like IWD's Dragon's Eye.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Stun

[milczyciel]

I need some back-story flavor, but not necessarily another Watcher's Keep epic scale, world threatening drama (which I liked, don't get me wrong). Durlag's Tower (or half-ogre island from Arcanum)  background would suffice here. Without it, I'm afraid I'll end up bored just like I did with Battlefields in Beyond DIvinity.

 

I'm not concerned about anything else (like mechanics, loot amount/type or design) because They already gave us enough info to keep me calm.

[Yellow Rabbit]

I hope I won't be executed for these words, but I think 15-level dungeon is a bit too large. There's gonna be incredibly much fighting anyway, there's just no other options.

 

What would I personally prefer is a good reason to go down there, story of some sort. Not just for loot or experience, and certainly not because "there lives big scary annoying evil that needs to be killed immediately, or WE ALL DOOMED!!!" And maybe it would be good to find some clues about builders of this dungeon. I mean, what kind of insanity would bring any reasonable creature to dig THIS deep?

[Stun]

^It might not be so Deep. The "deepness" of the mega dungeon has not yet been revealed to us. It could be a tower-like structure with mostly above ground levels and only a few subterranean levels.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Stun

[Yellow Rabbit]

^It might not be so Deep. The "deepness" of the mega dungeon has not yet been revealed to us. It could be a tower-like structure with mostly above ground levels and only a few subterranean levels.

Maybe you're right. There wasn't any levels above terrain's surface on the Od Nua concept though. But I don't know how hard devs gonna stick to it.

[Hassat Hunter]

Au contraire to some other posters, the less Diablo (If I want to play Diablo I play Diablo, not Project Eternity) and the more plot and quests and random people to talk to and puzzles the better.

15 levels of only combat... would be the ultimate anti-Baldur's Gate. And... that's kinda not really the point of this Kickstater is it?

[Monte Carlo]

Au contraire to some other posters, the less Diablo (If I want to play Diablo I play Diablo, not Project Eternity) and the more plot and quests and random people to talk to and puzzles the better.

15 levels of only combat... would be the ultimate anti-Baldur's Gate. And... that's kinda not really the point of this Kickstater is it?

 

Wut?

 

Is IWD like Diablo?

[Hassat Hunter]

Is there a 15-level dungeon in IWD where you don't do any talking inbetween in?

Because apparently, that's what some people want...

[Nihiliste]

Yeah if I'm going to slog through 15 levels of something, it better be really interesting.  The atmosphere needs to be intriguing, there needs to be compelling story reasons to keep going, and the levels need to feel distinct from one another. I hope there are a lot of characters to talk to, and that things inside are tied to a lot of quests, and that the levels are full of a lot of wondrous things to discover.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Nihiliste

[neo6874]

^It might not be so Deep. The "deepness" of the mega dungeon has not yet been revealed to us. It could be a tower-like structure with mostly above ground levels and only a few subterranean levels.

 

I think his whole point is "15 levels is too much", regardless of whether it's above-, or under-ground.

 

 

I hope I won't be executed for these words, but I think 15-level dungeon is a bit too large. There's gonna be incredibly much fighting anyway, there's just no other options.

 

What would I personally prefer is a good reason to go down there, story of some sort. Not just for loot or experience, and certainly not because "there lives big scary annoying evil that needs to be killed immediately, or WE ALL DOOMED!!!" And maybe it would be good to find some clues about builders of this dungeon. I mean, what kind of insanity would bring any reasonable creature to dig THIS deep?

Remember, "dungeon" is the catch-all term that we ascribe to most of the "typical" labyrinths that we will get sent to -- regardless of whether it's actually a "dungeon" or not (e.g. crypts, caves, etc).

 

As for "purpose" of the PC exploring this place - because it's there.  

As for the "historical" purpose - who knows, it's in the Ruins of Od Nua though ... so that might have something to do with it.

As for the levels -> remember, just because the thing is "15 levels" doesn't mean that the builders excavated all of them.  Maybe they excavated 10 levels, and then ran into a massive underground cavern (or, like Stun said, maybe there's some stuff above ground too -- though I would hope that the "depths" would actually be physically locked off*, because I'm the type to go "ooh! stairs!" and go the wrong way.)

 

 

*I don't particularly like the idea of "find a key" on every level, but any hook like the following could be used to open it up (assuming "keep" plus "basement"):

• The door to the basement (and lower 13 levels) is warded, they drop when you kill BBEG.
• Upon killing BBEG, you hear a collapse in the lower levels
• Upon killing BBEG, you find a note talking about there being a secret door in the fireplace in the basement, and you have to find the lost treasure so you can save your home from being turned into a golf course (oh wait ... wrong story )
• Upon returning to the original quest giver, you're told more stories of Od Nua that reference the lower depths of the ruins (go to lowest level, now you can find the secret door)
• Upon checking out the tavern after finishing the quest, some other adventuring party talks about the depths beneath the keep (same thing - you now find the secret door in the lowest accessible level)

If it's all "basement", then it could be as simple as "find a letter on the BBEG indicating the ruins go deeper than you currently are" 

 

Edit because of a lot of posts just came up:

 

Remember guys, it's 15 levels overall, but you're not intended to do them in one go.  From the sound of it, you can do only so many levels at any one time, because the dungeon scales WAY faster than your characters.  For the ease of numbers, let's say the following:

 

L1-3 -> the "storyline" levels, built for ECL4 party

L4-6 -> built for ECL7

L7-9 -> built for ECL10

L10-12 -> built for ECL13

L13-15 -> built for ECL16

 

"built for" means that a party of a particular ECL will find it "challenging, but not overpowering". Now, I'm just assuming the "lowest" level of each 3-floor "step" -- maybe L4/5 can be done at ECL5, but there's something on L6 that requires you to be L7 (or lucky, a very good tactician, etc at L6). Going back to D&D "guidelines", a general encounter with the CR matched to the PCs should expend about 20% of their stuff (spells, potions, HP, wand charges etc) by the end of the fight. So a party of ECL 5 can fight 4 CR5 encounters (or 10 CR3, or 20 CR1), or maybe 1-2 CR 6/7.

Edited December 23, 2013 by neo6874

[Yellow Rabbit]

Because apparently, that's what some people want...

Just read through whole topic again. Twice. Started it third time, but got bored on the middle. Found no opinions you're talking about, except, maybe, one, which was not completely clear to me. Most responders either voted no for endless fights or didn't speak about fights at all. Is it something wrong with my eyes?

Edited December 23, 2013 by Yellow Rabbit

[rjshae]

The dungeon I'm not too concerned about, as long as it's fun. I'm sure the designers will make it interesting.

[Plutone00]

The dungeon I'm not too concerned about, as long as it's fun. I'm sure the designers will make it interesting.

 

That's a little too vague, don't you think?

Edited December 23, 2013 by Plutone00

[Stun]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a "BBEG"?

 

though I would hope that the "depths" would actually be physically locked off*, because I'm the type to go "ooh! stairs!" and go the wrong way.)

 

 

*I don't particularly like the idea of "find a key" on every level, but any hook like the following could be used to open it up (assuming "keep" plus "basement"):

• The door to the basement (and lower 13 levels) is warded, they drop when you kill BBEG.
• Upon killing BBEG, you hear a collapse in the lower levels
• Upon killing BBEG, you find a note talking about there being a secret door in the fireplace in the basement, and you have to find the lost treasure so you can save your home from being turned into a golf course (oh wait ... wrong story )
• Upon returning to the original quest giver, you're told more stories of Od Nua that reference the lower depths of the ruins (go to lowest level, now you can find the secret door)
• Upon checking out the tavern after finishing the quest, some other adventuring party talks about the depths beneath the keep (same thing - you now find the secret door in the lowest accessible level)

Ugh... No. I don't want that. Padlocking dungeon advancement until "X is killed" Or "Y gives you a revelation" is a bad idea for a few reasons.

 

1) it's an excessive, and even arbitrary, limit to player freedom, all in the name of a plot's deus ex machina (ie. The door or stairs down is forever locked until the Boss is killed. Then it just magically opens once his heart stops beating!) I see this as no different from the modern day developer practice of not allowing a boss fight to occur until the obligatory cut scene has triggered.

 

2)imposing such a rule for every single level will get really old.... really fast. it'll feel gamey and soullessly mechanical.... the opposite of organic and natural.

 

3) Contrary to the notion that getting lost in a dungeon is a bad thing, I like seeing stairs, wings, forks and other elements of choice in my dungeon delving. It IS called the Endless paths of Od Nua, after all, not: "The singular path of Od Nua." I would hope that it lives up to its name, and that each level has multiple ways up, down and out. The alternative is to just promote linearity. And the idea of a linear 15 level dungeon nauseates me.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Stun

[Plutone00]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a "BBEG"?

 

Big Bad Evil Guy/Gal

[Abel]

 

Au contraire to some other posters, the less Diablo (If I want to play Diablo I play Diablo, not Project Eternity) and the more plot and quests and random people to talk to and puzzles the better.

15 levels of only combat... would be the ultimate anti-Baldur's Gate. And... that's kinda not really the point of this Kickstater is it?

 

Wut?

 

Is IWD like Diablo?

 

 

The only difference between them is the active pause. I didn't like this aspect of IWD, really...

[LadyCrimson]

So don't do the mega dungeon if you don't like the way it ends up. IIRC it was stretch goals that made it get to that many levels. I'd rather they focus story-aspects on the main plot/game and am fine if the mega dungeon is basically a long 'dungeon crawl' for some phat lewt.

Also, Diablo doesn't have self-party options. But IWD was largely about combat vs. story. And I like the pause. When I used it. I didn't always.

[Stun]

The only difference between them is the active pause. I didn't like this aspect of IWD, really...

Well, there was nothing in Diablo comparable to, say, the Severed Hand, or Lower Dorns Deep, as both of those dungeons had whole levels of totally non-hostile content. But yes, the two games shared similar Philosophies (and in fact, IWD1 and Diablo 2 were released on the same day and the intention WAS for them to compete with one another for the hack & slash lover's attention)

 

I think Icewind Dale was designed to hit that sweet spot in between Baldur's gate and Diablo. And it succeeded. I doubt, though, that this will be the intent with Eternity. I think Obsidian is trying to be more Baldurs Gatish.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Stun

[C2B]

Dungeon Crawlers existed before Diablo.