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Dungeon Crawlers existed before Diablo.

I think most people use Diablo because they know 98% of the gaming population will know the reference.
“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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I hope it is absolutely gigantic.  I hope each floor takes me more than 30 minutes to complete.  And I hope it is about a fallen race or empire or something.  I always thought the Falmer in the Elder Scrolls games were fantastic and I would love it if some subterrainean race that is lost in time is hidden there.

 

I imagine the Mega Dungeon as some sort of underground metropolis from eons past.

 

I also hope it is possible to replay it in the same game.  Respawning traps/monsters or whatever.

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Dungeon Crawlers existed before Diablo.

I think most people use Diablo because they know 98% of the gaming population will know the reference.

 

 

Totally, you hit the point :) A fast reference that don't need argue to be understood.

 

I agree, IWD was in between Diablo and BG. And there were fine stories behind some places like the Severed hand. What i disliked was the never ending whole game dungeon. No variety at all. And when the game is just about killing so many monsters and about loot, i use to make this easy comparison with Diablo because everyone undestand why. (The first Diablo was awesome though). I really prefer more varied games like Planescape, Fallout 1&2, Arcanum, BGate,... The 15 lvl dungeon may be great, i'm just afraid that it could be an excuse to push the player to a boring, never ending and non sense monster bashing.

 

Monster bashing + loot is not "adventures" for me. Just monster bashing + loot. That's why i made the comparison with Diablo and why i made my first post here. No offense.

 

If the dungeon is intriguing, with cool story, and as varied as the Durlag Tower Stun spoke about, i actually may enjoy it. But probably less than the core game. Just my own way to have fun.

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Dungeon Crawlers existed before Diablo.

I think most people use Diablo because they know 98% of the gaming population will know the reference.

 

 

Totally, you hit the point :) A fast reference that don't need argue to be understood.

 

I agree, IWD was in between Diablo and BG. And there were fine stories behind some places like the Severed hand. What i disliked was the never ending whole game dungeon. No variety at all. And when the game is just about killing so many monsters and about loot, i use to make this easy comparison with Diablo because everyone undestand why. (The first Diablo was awesome though). I really prefer more varied games like Planescape, Fallout 1&2, Arcanum, BGate,... The 15 lvl dungeon may be great, i'm just afraid that it could be an excuse to push the player to a boring, never ending and non sense monster bashing.

 

Monster bashing + loot is not "adventures" for me. Just monster bashing + loot. That's why i made the comparison with Diablo and why i made my first post here. No offense.

 

If the dungeon is intriguing, with cool story, and as varied as the Durlag Tower Stun spoke about, i actually may enjoy it. But probably less than the core game. Just my own way to have fun.

 

Although I can see where you're coming from, having Od Nua as a "monster bashing + loot" marathon would be fun for a lot of us, especially people like me who played Diablo and Diablo 2 more than then IE games :)

 

Variety is the spice of life!  Although purposeful adventuring is great, too.

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When they pitched it, I was thinking it'd be like Watcher's Keep. Seeing just how many levels there are in the dungeon really kind of worries me. There's no way it could possibly be that complex and well thought out without basically being a game in itself. I hope they pull this off.

 

 

Although I can see where you're coming from, having Od Nua as a "monster bashing + loot" marathon would be fun for a lot of us, especially people like me who played Diablo and Diablo 2 more than then IE games

Diablo is mechanically designed to support that kind of gameplay. A majority of the fun of the game comes from killing a whole lot of demon spawn. IE games and games of a similar type don't really support that. Icewind Dale tried it, and it manages to get really boring after just a few hours of play. I wouldn't call Baldur's Gate combat light, but its very deliberate approach to encounters kept them feeling fresh (for the most part) while Icewind Dale was just relentless. If this dungeon ends up like that, I probably won't enjoy it at all. I kind of doubt you would either if you prefer Diablo. Different styles of play make those two wildly different experiences.

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I'm sure it won't be like this at all, but I'm hoping for a subterranean environment that borrows ideas and flavor from the Annwn (the Otherworld) from Welsh and Irish myth. A place of dark fey and weird Lovecraftian horrors, where the deeper one delves, the less the rules of the mortal world hold sway - a thing that's as much a living, sentient malevolence as it is a "place."

 

In short, a place that creeps you the hell out and haunts you.

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though I would hope that the "depths" would actually be physically locked off*, because I'm the type to go "ooh! stairs!" and go the wrong way.)

 

 

*I don't particularly like the idea of "find a key" on every level, but any hook like the following could be used to open it up (assuming "keep" plus "basement"):

  • The door to the basement (and lower 13 levels) is warded, they drop when you kill BBEG.
  • Upon killing BBEG, you hear a collapse in the lower levels
  • Upon killing BBEG, you find a note talking about there being a secret door in the fireplace in the basement, and you have to find the lost treasure so you can save your home from being turned into a golf course (oh wait ... wrong story ;))
  • Upon returning to the original quest giver, you're told more stories of Od Nua that reference the lower depths of the ruins (go to lowest level, now you can find the secret door)
  • Upon checking out the tavern after finishing the quest, some other adventuring party talks about the depths beneath the keep (same thing - you now find the secret door in the lowest accessible level)
Ugh... No. I don't want that. Padlocking dungeon advancement until "X is killed" Or "Y gives you a revelation" is a bad idea for a few reasons.

 

1) it's an excessive, and even arbitrary, limit to player freedom, all in the name of a plot's deus ex machina (ie. The door or stairs down is forever locked until the Boss is killed. Then it just magically opens once his heart stops beating!) I see this as no different from the modern day developer practice of not allowing a boss fight to occur until the obligatory cut scene has triggered.

 

2)imposing such a rule for every single level will get really old.... really fast. it'll feel gamey and soullessly mechanical.... the opposite of organic and natural.

 

3) Contrary to the notion that getting lost in a dungeon is a bad thing, I like seeing stairs, wings, forks and other elements of choice in my dungeon delving. It IS called the Endless paths of Od Nua, after all, not: "The singular path of Od Nua." I would hope that it lives up to its name, and that each level has multiple ways up, down and out. The alternative is to just promote linearity. And the idea of a linear 15 level dungeon nauseates me.

 

Sorry - I appear to not have been as clear as I thought I was.

 

1. I'm only using that list as a "safety feature" dependent on the design of the dungeon, because your party goes there as part of the storyline too.  If it's possible to accidentally walk into the Endless Paths (which have nothing to do with the storyline) and believe you're following the storyline dungeon, it will be extremely frustrating to players.

 

2. The "Locked/Hidden/Warded Door" is only at the entrance to the Endless Paths.  After that, the only thing blocking your progression will be the things that call the Endless Paths "home".

 

3. Getting lost in a dungeon is fun. Going the wrong way (without knowing it) and believing that you have no other choice is not fun (see: the first/second "Lets Play Arcanum" with Chris Avellone for examples -- he spends like 40+ minutes trying to fight wolves because he's going the wrong way).

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Diablo is mechanically designed to support that kind of gameplay. A majority of the fun of the game comes from killing a whole lot of demon spawn. IE games and games of a similar type don't really support that. Icewind Dale tried it, and it manages to get really boring after just a few hours of play.

 

In your opinion I would say, which of course isn't any more, or any less valid than mine.

And let me tell you, that I have very much enjoyed Icewind Dale (the first) to extent of replaying it 3(?) times and then coplaying it twice (with a friend, via lan on holidays). Sure, not in a row, but I suppose it's not the point here.

So if that mega-dungeon would turn out to be a game inside a game (imagining IWD like megadungeon inside BG2 here) I'd be more than happy.

"There are no good reasons. Only legal ones." - Ross Scott

 It's not that I'm lazy. I just don't care.

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Dunno. Dungeons (even megadungeons) can be engaging. But...

 

"Whenever I design a large dungeon, and whenever I was in a dungeon designed by someone else, the default assumptions are:

-There is a wide variety of monsters in the dungeon.

-It's really big.

-The design is nonlinear so you that you can end up doing the dungeon in any number of different ways.*

-There are traps. These traps make sense considering who built them and what they were protecting.

-There are weird nonstandard tricks--these things are weird but they have a reason they're there. If all else fails its some kind of "test" and if even that fails then maybe it was designed by an insane wizard.

-There are enough traps that PCs look at every single thing in the dungeon sideways. Therefore every detail--even if harmless--is potentially important.

-The culture(s) that built the dungeon aren't the ones who live in it now (that's why there are traps and tricks guarding ancient hidden treasures rather than just guards in front of what amounts to a bank vault.)

-There is more than one intelligent faction living in the dungeon and controlling what goes on there (that's why 3-8 random adventurers have a chance of getting in and out--the enemy isn't inept, they just have to simultaneously deal with other **** besides you.) (That's also why there's more than one kind of trick and trap.)

-The whole dungeon functions together. A lever or key in location A can affect things that happen in location B. You have to go back sometimes to find these things.

-Dangerous features of the dungeon can be used against the dungeon inhabitants by clever PCS.

-The tricks and the traps alternate with monster fights but--more than that--they are integrated with monster fights so that they can work together. You never fight the same monster twice because environmental factors make a difference."

 

Usually, CRPGs end up somewhat lacking in the features that make dungeons fun.

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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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...

 

So if that mega-dungeon would turn out to be a game inside a game (imagining IWD like megadungeon inside BG2 here) I'd be more than happy.

 

 

 I would find that a little sad (though, as you said, to each his own). I never finished either IWD because 'Go over there, anonymous adventurer, and grind up whoever you find; Repeat ad nauseum' isn't enough story for me. (I got a lot further in IWD when I installed the NPC mod, but after a I while still I ran out of steam (I think due to the less than stellar voice acting of an otherwise very well done mod)). 

 

 What I would really like to see is an interesting reason (or reasons) why the character that I'm playing in game would want to go to the dungeon at the times when it (metagame) makes sense to go there. For example, Durlag's Tower (a dungeon that I liked) didn't really have much a of an in-game reason to go there before dealing with Sarevok; there were some good metagame reasons to go, but why would your character go there unless you are roleplaying someone with attention deficit disorder? The sword coast is on the brink of war and only I can save it (plus this guy keeps trying to kill me), but look over there, loot!

 

 I think with the dungeon being included in the original game, rather than an expansion, it should be possible to have a story that makes sense, is somehow connected to the main story (maybe only tangentially connected) in a way that would draw your character into it.

 

 That wouldn't detract from all of the dungeon-y goodness to keep the IWD fans happy and would also make me very happy (well, I'd also like a lot of flexibility in how to explore/solve the dungeon rather than 15 levels of basically running a (tactically complex) meat grinder down one corridor, but I think we'll get that in any case).

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 That wouldn't detract from all of the dungeon-y goodness to keep the IWD fans happy and would also make me very happy (well, I'd also like a lot of flexibility in how to explore/solve the dungeon rather than 15 levels of basically running a (tactically complex) meat grinder down one corridor, but I think we'll get that in any case).

 

You're right - my game wouldn't be worsened in any way by that, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and all those folks you represent.

Peace ;)

 

BTW: anyone enjoyed battlefields in Beyond Divinity? I hoped someone will at least try to defend them, the last time I mentioned 'em  :biggrin:

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"There are no good reasons. Only legal ones." - Ross Scott

 It's not that I'm lazy. I just don't care.

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-The design is nonlinear so you that you can end up doing the dungeon in any number of different ways.*

Oh yes. This is what made Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil's dungeons (the Moat House and the Temple) so wonderfully dynamic, so engaging, and so... ominous. There were multiple entrance points, multiple ways up and down, and even more: Entrance points that didn't even begin at level one. For example, The Temple had a secret outdoor well that took you directly to level 3! So basically you could begin the dungeon experience at the center of the dungeon complex. So right at the outset you were presented with an utterly non linear situation.

 

This is a lost art in dungeon design. Developers simply do not do this kind of thing anymore. But the good news is that Josh Sawyer has said a few times that he's a big fan of multiple dungeon entrance points. The Megadungeon probably won't offer quite the level of open-endedness as the Temple in TOEE, But it will probably be more open-ended and non linear than the standard dungeons we see in today's RPGs. This is a plus.

Edited by Stun
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Diablo is mechanically designed to support that kind of gameplay. A majority of the fun of the game comes from killing a whole lot of demon spawn. IE games and games of a similar type don't really support that. Icewind Dale tried it, and it manages to get really boring after just a few hours of play.

 

In your opinion I would say, which of course isn't any more, or any less valid than mine.

And let me tell you, that I have very much enjoyed Icewind Dale (the first) to extent of replaying it 3(?) times and then coplaying it twice (with a friend, via lan on holidays). Sure, not in a row, but I suppose it's not the point here.

So if that mega-dungeon would turn out to be a game inside a game (imagining IWD like megadungeon inside BG2 here) I'd be more than happy.

 

 

I didn't hate Icewind Dale (I'm replaying it right now), but it's not well suited to the Infinity Engine at all. There are very good areas in the game, like the bottom two levels of Kresselack's tomb, the bottom 3 levels of Dragon's Eye, pretty much all of the Severed Hand, and others. However, the upper levels of most of the dungeons and even the more open areas are basically all combat. There's no other elements to get lost in. There's no NPC character interaction, there's no side quests, there's no exploration outside of the main areas. All you do is fight. That's very draining in a role playing game.

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All of the things you mentioned never had any lasting impact over my enjoyment of IWD. I can't say why - maybe because I didn't had any expectations for IWD (BG didn't made me a fan of a genre), maybe because I learned about it existence from prehistoric printed magazine and knew from the very beginning what not to expect, maybe because I'm not a die-hard fan of only one crpgs design* and can be satisfied as long as the game in question knows it's limitations and doesn't try to be something more.

Maybe something completely else, dunno. All I know is - it didn't affected me.

 

Sure, I immediately noticed all those differences between GB and IWD (like that npc interaction), but I don't feel that it has anything to do with just how much IE suits dungeon crawling genre.

 

I honestly recall only two issues I had with IWD - speed spell/boots/potions and sleeping abuse I felt forced into. But they were back there in the first IE installment, which proves IMO that no matter if it's fully fleshed rpg or just a dungeon crawler, some things will stay the same: a nuisance, without any meaningful impact over the overall satisfaction.

So all I can do here, is acknowledge your opinion and drop it here :)

 

Oh - and there were sidequests in IWD. Sure, nowhere near BG numbers, but still they were there.

edit:  internet says there are +/- 17 sq

 

*or am I? Fallout 1 and 2 are to this day my "how it should be done"

Edited by milczyciel

"There are no good reasons. Only legal ones." - Ross Scott

 It's not that I'm lazy. I just don't care.

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-The design is nonlinear so you that you can end up doing the dungeon in any number of different ways.*

Oh yes. This is what made Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil's dungeons (the Moat House and the Temple) so wonderfully dynamic, so engaging, and so... ominous. There were multiple entrance points, multiple ways up and down, and even more: Entrance points that didn't even begin at level one. For example, The Temple had a secret outdoor well that took you directly to level 3! So basically you could begin the dungeon experience at the center of the dungeon complex. So right at the outset you were presented with an utterly non linear situation.

 

This is a lost art in dungeon design. Developers simply do not do this kind of thing anymore. But the good news is that Josh Sawyer has said a few times that he's a big fan of multiple dungeon entrance points. The Megadungeon probably won't offer quite the level of open-endedness as the Temple in TOEE, But it will probably be more open-ended and non linear than the standard dungeons we see in today's RPGs. This is a plus.

 

 

I suppose it's worth a mention for the new kids that Troika sort of nicked their design from Gary Gygax's Pen and Paper module of the same name.

 

But your point stands that developers (for vidya games or tabletop) have gotten much more "rail roadie" as the years have gone on when it comes to dungeon design. When I look at the Durlag's Tower in Baldur's Gate and compare it to the so-called dungeons Bioware created for Dragon Age II it's startling to think that the same company made both of those games. As you say, Mr. Sawyer seems to get the non-linearity aspect of dungeon design, hopefully they nail the atmospheric bit too.

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Dunno. Dungeons (even megadungeons) can be engaging. But...

 

"Whenever I design a large dungeon, and whenever I was in a dungeon designed by someone else, the default assumptions are:

-There is a wide variety of monsters in the dungeon.

 

-It's really big.

 

-The design is nonlinear so you that you can end up doing the dungeon in any number of different ways.*

 

-There are traps. These traps make sense considering who built them and what they were protecting.

 

-There are weird nonstandard tricks--these things are weird but they have a reason they're there. If all else fails its some kind of "test" and if even that fails then maybe it was designed by an insane wizard.

 

-There are enough traps that PCs look at every single thing in the dungeon sideways. Therefore every detail--even if harmless--is potentially important.

 

-The culture(s) that built the dungeon aren't the ones who live in it now (that's why there are traps and tricks guarding ancient hidden treasures rather than just guards in front of what amounts to a bank vault.)

 

-There is more than one intelligent faction living in the dungeon and controlling what goes on there (that's why 3-8 random adventurers have a chance of getting in and out--the enemy isn't inept, they just have to simultaneously deal with other **** besides you.) (That's also why there's more than one kind of trick and trap.)

 

-The whole dungeon functions together. A lever or key in location A can affect things that happen in location B. You have to go back sometimes to find these things.

 

-Dangerous features of the dungeon can be used against the dungeon inhabitants by clever PCS.

 

-The tricks and the traps alternate with monster fights but--more than that--they are integrated with monster fights so that they can work together. You never fight the same monster twice because environmental factors make a difference."

 

Usually, CRPGs end up somewhat lacking in the features that make dungeons fun.

 

If the mega dungeon in PoE has even 50% of these features, I'd be a pretty happy bunny. 

 

When playing a dungeon, the thing which tends to put me off the most is the feeling of a linear, modular progression through it, no matter how well designed the traps and encounters are. I'd prefer to have a well fleshed out atmospheric dungeon rather than one which is just a series of shallow, barely related challenges.

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Consider that the individual who built the dungeon was insane...

This is best. There's nothing quite so drab and boring as an attempt to make "fungeon" ecologies sensible and logical like its some architect or modern engineer who designed the thing -the thing I hated most about second edition advanced dungeons and dragon's design sensibilities.

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I haven't finished reading all the posts in this thread yet, but I read in the big big update in one of the interviews they just finished creating the whole mega dungeon. So it's already completed. Saying that however and to answer the OP question, I would prefer a mixture of fighting and puzzle/riddles for the possibility of finding really nice lore related epic drops. Possibly extremely rare artifacts that can be used to combine with a weapon of my choice to add some kind of perk to it for example. I would like a lot of hidden doors, or a lot of things like cryptic messages you have to find stuff for to decipher it from the main game to know how to progress. Unless you just like trial and error until you make it through. One thing I would've liked to have in it was a combination of interior and exterior spaces. Also I want a few rooms I can just drop nuke types of attacks to do massive AOE damage.

Edited by Falkon Swiftblade
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My biggest hope for that mega-dungeon is that they somehow managed to give it a feeling like entering a huge, ancient place that will never be fully explored. I don't want it to be a 20-floor meathouse with monsters getting stronger as you advance and I don't want to be able to clear it 100 percent (only if I can do something with it afterwards, like founding a dungeon-city in it or stuff like that). 

I want that feeling of having to sneak through it, because it's ****ing huge and ****ing insane and powerful. The mines of Moria feeling. 

 

That would be great, however the devs would manage to create that. 

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-Dangerous features of the dungeon can be used against the dungeon inhabitants by clever PCS.

Does anyone know if traps will be triggerable by monsters?

 

 

Probably not, but it would be a cool feature, when it makes sense.

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Does anyone know if traps will be triggerable by monsters?

I sure hope so. In the IE games you didn't want to see enemies getting chunked by a dungeon's traps because it meant you got screwed out of exp for the kill.

 

But since you won't be getting exp for killing things in Eternity, I wouldn't mind at all if you got the chance to draw an enemy into a situation where they trigger a dungeon's traps and get fried for it.

Edited by Stun
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I think it would be pretty awesome if the Mega Dungeon were kind of like a derelict city, in function. Obviously not a quest hub, but... you know, kind of like the Mines of Moria in the Lord of the Rings. Sure, there's lots of old tombs and loot, and lots of things to slay that are infesting the place. But, there's also a lot of culture and ties to other things in the world. I mean... people used to live there/operate there. It's not just some treasury where they put a bunch of stuff and then left, then monsters moved in.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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