Some "New Stretch Goals" Thoughts, Mega-Dungeon

Coming straight out of this thread with some thoughts...

Would you be willing to sacrifice a couple of Mega-Dungeon Levels for more overland exploration?

I did a bit of a head-count and some research in this post as well.

 

This is a guesswork list by the way, but I think it could be close to the actual numbers:

- 30 Areas in TOTAL
- 15 Mega-Dungeon Areas
- 2 Big Cities, 4 or 5 areas each.
- Depending on the 2 Big Cities, that'd make 5 or 7 Wilderness Areas.

So my thoughts are... could some of the levels of the Mega-Dungeon be sacrificed and/or tributed to Wilderness areas?

Because as it currently stands, it looks like Eternity might be a Baldur's Gate version of the first Diablo or Torchlight game. Except that in Eternity's case the Mega-Dungeon is optional and not required to finish.

This means 15 areas to explore, most of them 2 Big Cities (excluding the Mega-Dungeon as it is an optional thing).

On top of my head, I can think of 4 solutions:

1) Donate 5 (or even 6) areas of the Mega-Dungeon to the overland exploration. 9 or 10 levels of MEGA-Dungeon is maybe not "MEGA" but definitely "Mega".

2) This World Map Dream Post (Yes yes self-promotion or whatnot but I haven't followed that thread entirely so I don't know if there are better examples) @Obsidian: If you make World Map Travel simple and interesting at the same time you might not need too many "Wilderness Areas". More Fallout-, Ultima-, and Darklands-esque in a way.

3) Get more funding for Eterntiy to be able to add more content. More wilderness areas and more companions. BUT... would this be wise for Obsidian, as it might push back the release date of the game further? OR, if the "more wilderness areas" and "more companions" does not push back dates but is added as "add-on" content... is that wise for the Eternity Experience?

4) Include the Mega-Dungeon into the story, make it not an optional thing but an "obligatory" thing to complete the game and story. Many games, in my opinion, have used this method with great success. Diablo only had one city and a Mega-Dungeon, Torchlight too and even Legend of Grimrock is using this method (LoG2 is rumored to have outdoors exploration). It is a popular theme that Developers seem to use.

I think that "4)" might be the best solution in my little analysis list here. Because it allows Obsidian to use all extra funding they get (which might otherwise be intended for "more wilderness areas" and "more companions") and put it into Eternity 2 and to make Eternity 2 as big as it possibly can be, and at the same time do just what they want to do, add more wilderness areas and add more companions, except they'd do it for Eternity 2 instead of Eternity 1.

What are your thoughts?

1) Donate 5 (or even 6) areas of the Mega-Dungeon to the overland exploration. 9 or 10 levels of MEGA-Dungeon is maybe not "MEGA" but definitely "Mega".

 

No, this would never fly as it was one of the original promises made during the Kickstarter program.

No sacrifice of Dungeon Levels. Doesn't make sense to do so since Obsidian have already started on the mega dungeon some time ago with story and layouts. Just keep the new stretch goals to companions and wilderness areas as additions without sacrificing other areas of the game.

I don't think that's really an option at all because most backers won't be here to vote and it's unlikely Obsidian will change up what's been promised to all over a handful of forum comments or even a poll with votes from a few hundred.

That would be a great way to piss off a huge portion of the backers.

 

I include myself in that number

This is a guesswork list by the way, but I think it could be close to the actual numbers:

- 30 Areas in TOTAL

- 15 Mega-Dungeon Areas

- 2 Big Cities, 4 or 5 areas each.

- Depending on the 2 Big Cities, that'd make 5 or 7 Wilderness Areas.

 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Well, my thoughts are "your numbers must be off"

 

(But even if they aren't, areas can differ in size. I seriously doubt one megadungeon level will directly be equal to one wilderness area/city area in size and content).

Exactly aluminium. They are not the same size.

I counted 2 maps a month from October 2012 to May 2014. That's 40 by the way. I pulled it down to 30 because Brandon Adler says in Update #67 that it takes 13 man days (that's 17 days, Monday-Friday, unless Obsidian works every weekend~ which I don't think they are) to get it to pass to "borderline alpha".

 

 

Update by Brandon Adler, Literal Task Master

 

So, for those keeping count at home, to get a first pass area that is borderline Alpha (as in no bug fixing or polish work) it costs the project about 13 man days. This is little over one half of a man month of time for a small, simple area. Larger areas with more content take significantly longer to develop.

 

"Small, simple area." I am not overstating this fact too much am I?

And if Obsidian would release Eternity late 2014 (Winter), which I read someone saying here as a question, it'd add maybe 10 more areas to explore (again, I counted to 17 here, but I'm scaling it down because as you yourself say, areas are different sizes,  and "Larger areas with more content take significantly longer to develop").

EDIT: But outsourcing should make it possible to create more areas faster of course. And I can't count those, but if Obsidian wants to be somewhere between Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2, then I'd guess it'd add... (math math math)... something like 20 areas just from outsourcing to May 2014?

Btw, Josh speaks in several interviews (Update #69, links at the bottom) that they want the scope to be somewhere between Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2, and pretty much states (between the lines) that it's definately not going to be as big as Baldur's Gate 1.

Doing some counting over at Mike's RPG.

 

Baldur's Gate:
- I count 69 Places on the map (and the ones below in blue links)

EDITED IN: On this page (PlanetBaldursGate) I count it to 107 Areas~

Baldur's Gate 2:
- I count 62 Areas in the blue links

EDITED IN: And I have no idea how to count this on PlanetBaldursGate

I know these are not anywhere near the exact numbers because I'm not considering all the sub-maps and such, we do know that Baldur's Gate is bigger in terms of exploration but yeah... just doing a rough estimate basically.

When I count 1 area for Eternity btw, I do mean 1 area with content in it (Houses, Quests, People, Items, Caves, etc. etc.). If Obsidian wants to add new Stretch Goals for "more wilderness areas" I kind of guess that they aren't really where they want to be in their planning (planning which is said to be somewhere between Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II).

EDIT: So I am guessing they want about 60-70 (or as many as possible~) maps for Eternity. And if Obsidian are without outsourced help, they'd get 40 maps til Winter (December) 2014. With outsourcing maybe 30 extra maps (til December 2014). Outsourcing thoughts are purely based on speculation.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Osvir

Btw, Josh speaks in several interviews (Update #69, links at the bottom) that they want the scope to be somewhere between Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2, and pretty much states (between the lines) that it's definately not going to be as big as Baldur's Gate 1.

 

Edit time ran out and I just want to say that this is indeed incorrect (unless I just didn't find it stated in the interviews, I was skimming it and looking quickly cus I wanted to find it fast), but I am sure that Josh has said (somewhere I can't recall) that they want the scope somewhere between Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2... was it at the GDC presentation?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Osvir

No, this would never fly as it was one of the original promises made during the Kickstarter program.

Indeed. The suggestion is nonsense, and portrays a mind that does not grasp even basic commercial practices.

 

 

I'm not sure what corner of the universe Osavir resides, but where I come from, when a company makes a promise in exchange for funds and then the paying public delivers those funds, the negotiation process is OVER. In this case, we've got a game that was kickstarted with a specific set of stretch goals - ie. promises. All were met. A YEAR ago. There's no "undoing" things now. There's no "can we take this back?"

 

At least not unless Obsidian is willing to refund us the money we gave them and then start over. otherwise, as Satanzchild pointed out, you'd be pissing off a huge portion of the backers. 10s of thousands of them, who will never trust you again. (and good luck reaching any new stretch goals if this happens)

 

TL:DR: No, Osavir, I Paid for a 15 level mega dungeon and Obsidian promised to deliver it. I Paid for 2 big cities and Obsidian promised to deliver them. etc. And Obsidian knows full well that failure to deliver on a financial transaction is a Death Knell for any company.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Stun

PS: I'm not sure what this BG1 vs. BG2 discussion is about exactly but I do feel the need to point out that BG2 was, by FAR the larger game. By every definition of the word "Larger". Thus if Sawyer says that the size of Eternity will be between BG1 and BG2, then what he is saying is that it will be bigger than BG1, but smaller than BG2.

 

Personally though, I'd take these comments with a grain of salt. They're only half way through making this game. Any such estimates, even from lead developers, are nothing more than ballpark guesses. They could end up being off by a mile in either direction by the time the game is done and shipped.

 

Brandon Adler says in Update #67 that it takes 13 man days (that's 17 days, Monday-Friday, unless Obsidian works every weekend~ which I don't think they are) to get it to pass to "borderline alpha".

LOL

 

Ok. When the Human resources department cites a measurement like "Man Days" or "Man Hours", they are using a conceptual measuring stick not meant to directly equate to how many weeks it will take to finish an area, or a project. For example, if it takes 12 man days to complete development of 1 area, but you got 4 men working on that area together, then in real world terms, that area will be done in 3 days.

 

That said, stop guessing, since you have no idea how Obsidian tasks out its staff for each area, nor are you taking into consideration the fact that some areas (like city districts) take far longer to make than, say, a small dungeon level.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Stun

It is just an idea (there are 3 more in the original post btw). I flip both ways.

15 Level Mega-Dungeon? HECK BLOODY YES!!! GIVE IT TO ME!

BUT....

Does that mean we get like... 5 wilderness areas? HMMMMMM! *researches Brandon Adlers announcement in Update #67 and counts* Maaaaaaaaaaaaaybeeeeee.....?

Do you comprehend?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Osvir

Brandon Adler says in Update #67 that it takes 13 man days (that's 17 days, Monday-Friday, unless Obsidian works every weekend~ which I don't think they are) to get it to pass to "borderline alpha".

LOL

 

Ok. When the Human resources department cites a measurement like "Man Days" or "Man Hours", they are using a broad measuring stick not meant to directly equate to how many weeks it will take to finish an area, or a project. For example, if it takes 12 man days to complete development of 1 area, but you got 4 men working on that area together, then in real world terms, it will take 3 days for them to complete that area.

 

That said, stop guessing, since you have no idea how Obsidian tasks out its staff for each area.

 

Thank you, this was very insightful

 

EDIT: And it also means my OP is wrong and I have no concern either.

 

EDIT EDIT: 

Here's (devtracker) the BG vs BG2 thing btw:

 

In Topic: Stretch Goals?

Posted by J.E. Sawyer on 12/10/2013 10:10 PM

Quote

So are you confident that animations, effects, etc. will have enough time and money as is? Are companions and wilderness the only two stretch goal possibilities because you are satisfied with how everything else is shaping up?

 

Additionally, the number of current companions vs proposed additions is pretty obvious, but what about wilderness areas? Is the current scope close to the in-between-BG1-and-BG2 goal that was originally considered? If so, how much additional wilderness would the stretch goal add?

 

 

 

We have scaled our scope to our budget, which includes animation and everything else.

 

The current wilderness area scope (specifically) is a little under BG2.  The exact number by which it would increase would likely depend on funding.  The goal isn't to turn it into BG1, but to hit that mid-point between the two BGs, so there's good exploration with solid content density.

 

That's a response to how many wilderness areas are scoped to be in Eternity. And counting on this map my OP isn't too far off actually (I count 15 areas outside Athkatla, not all of them are wilderness areas though, does it count? If not, I think I'm counting 7... or 8?). Might mean that the Big Cities are bigger than what I'm speculating/calculating   if that's the case it's pretty exciting to be honest.

 

This is what 40 Areas could give us, purely speculating:

- 15 Mega Level

- 2 Big Cities (5 Areas each, 10 together)

- 6 Wilderness areas

- 3 Other (Village, Keep/Fort, Temple, w/e)

- 1 Stronghold (How could I forget this in the OP?)

 

Then again, maaaybeee I'm forgetting Orlan habitats, Elf habitats, Aumaua habitats and Dwarf habitats... so maybe 45 areas in the scope? Gosh I'm super curious!

Edited December 13, 2013 by Osvir

3rd EDIT: Things we do know for a...uhm... rough fact?
- 15 Mega Level
- 2 Big Cities (none of them the size of Athkatla IIRC, which is 8 areas), maybe 5 and 6?
- Wilderness Areas slightly less than Baldur's Gate 2, meaning it could be 5 or 6, or, 12 or 13 (depending on what "counts" as wilderness areas in Baldur's Gate 2)
- Stronghold, 1 area

32-40 areas. This analysis is not taking into account for various habitats or Temple's or wayside Inn's or whatnot, or the Hommlet shown in one of the updates, or Orlan or Aumaua habitats etc. etc. meaning we could be looking at a total of a rough estimate of 45 areas (maybe).

Edited December 13, 2013 by Osvir

I don't think we should forget that based on the pledge additions, they are planning on making an expansion pack as well, which will no doubt include more overland areas to explore.  Personally, I am fine with the current scope of the game and depending on how the mega dungeon levels are done, they may end up being just as or more satisifying than a few extra overland areas.

PS: I'm not sure what this BG1 vs. BG2 discussion is about exactly but I do feel the need to point out that BG2 was, by FAR the larger game. By every definition of the word "Larger". Thus if Sawyer says that the size of Eternity will be between BG1 and BG2, then what he is saying is that it will be bigger than BG1, but smaller than BG2.

Bg2 was larger than Bg1 in terms of content. However one of the main critics people had was that Bg2 didn't have as many wilderness areas as bg1 did.

So when they were talking about the game being between bg2 and bg1, they meant the number of wilderness areas only.

I don't think anyone said how big the actual game content will be, however they did say in an interview that they are worried that people are expecting a bg2 size game in terms of content, so it will probably be lower than that.

I would pay for a few things, including crafting 2.0, more non plot-critical content, better mod support, and expanded/customizable stronghold. stuff already considered in the original kickstarter.

Is the mega dungeon really going to be over a third of the game? Where's that coming from? When the Mega Dungeon was announced as 15 levels I'd assume each of those levels would be many times smaller than a city area and the whole thing would be less content than one of the big cities. If it really is that big then for gods sake tone it down, what were they even thinking? If after 2 hours I'm still on the first level of a 15 level dungeon then the dungeon is effectively smaller because I'm going to give up that much faster.

Is the mega dungeon really going to be over a third of the game? Where's that coming from?

I think it comes from the fever-dreams of a dying preacher. I wouldn't worry too much.

 

Is the mega dungeon really going to be over a third of the game? Where's that coming from?

I think it comes from the fever-dreams of a dying preacher. I wouldn't worry too much.

 

 

@Rack: Not over a third of the game, but possibly a little bit less than a third of the game. That information comes only from my speculation and some analysis/research too. The numbers are just estimates based on Obsidian's numbers.

 

@Tamerlane: And I think I spent a great deal of time and research into this and that I don't deserve your condescending, mean, and rude tone for it. I'm not preaching, I'm researching and presenting findings.

 

Again, what we know (Or rather... what I have researched):

- We do know that Eternity's wilderness areas are slightly less than Baldur's Gate 2 (estimated: 5 or 6 areas, or, 12 or 13, depending on what counts as "wilderness" in BG2)

- We do know that the Mega Dungeon is 15 levels

- We do know that Big Cities are Big, but not as Big as Athkatla (IIRC), and Athkatla had 8 areas. I consider 5 or 6 to be "big".

- We know there's a homlet type of village

- We know there's a Stronghold

 

That estimate is about 40-45 areas without the new stretch goal thingy taken into consideration. With the new stretch goals, maybe 50~

Edited December 13, 2013 by Osvir

About the original question:

 

No, I would not want to sacrifice Megadungeon levels for wilderness areas. Even if I thought breaking the stretch goal promise was justifiable, I don't find wilderness areas that interesting. My priorities go city > dungeon > wilderness

 

However, I would possibly back a Kickstarter project "PE Wilderness Add-On", since I like big worlds in games as a rule.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Ieldra

The mega dungeon is already finished. It is too late for this.

Personally I prefer my dungeons to be in wilderness areas...like Firewine or Cloakwood.  Wilderness areas do not necessarily have to be just a field with some trees and a river running through it.

 

For example the journey to Durlags Tower and the outside area to enter it are half of what makes it awesome, I felt Watchers Keep was a loot piñata in comparison.

@Rack: Not over a third of the game, but possibly a little bit less than a third of the game. That information comes only from my speculation and some analysis/research too. The numbers are just estimates based on Obsidian's numbers.

But that's... not the way you measure size or scope Osavir!

 

I've got 209 bones in my body. My niece also has 209 bones in her body. But I'm 5'11 and weigh 200 lbs, while she's about 25 inches tall and weighs about 30 lbs. I'm much MUCH bigger in size than she is. See how that works?

 

I can't imagine the mega dungeon being bigger than one of the game's cities, let alone 1/3rd the size of the entire game. Using just the # of areas and drawing 'estimates' of game size from that, and nothing else, is a completely erroneous way of coming to a conclusion.

 

Why in the world are you doing such a thing?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Stun

I think the planning should not change! So, please, make the Mega-Dungeon and big Cities.

The Mega-Dungeon is more or less finished, and I personally found the wilderness areas to be the weakest part of the IE games, so for me that rules out suggestion #1.

 

For suggestion #2: Are you saying that if Obsidian made the wilderness more interesting, then we wouldn't miss more areas, or are you saying they should scrap the areas, and make it more like random encounters?

 

While I am looking forward to delve into the Mega-Dungeon, I don't think it should be mandatory. And while I have only played the first one, weren't Diablo, Torchlight and Legend of Grimrock all three different takes on the Dungeon Crawl genre? While the IE games did include Dungeons Crawl components, they were much more than that. So I would say that suggestion #4 is out as well.

 

Suggestion #3 would seem like the most likely scenario if you would like more wilderness areas - so if you want more wilderness areas, you will have to dig into your wallet, and hope that it won't impact the schedule too adversely.