Almost a quarter of men 'admit to rape in parts of Asia'

[BruceVC]

 

We could slowly fade the topic into the direction of male victims of women who lie about them beeing raped / sexually assaulted. It's a pretty big problem, as men are kind of guilty from the go.

 

How big of a problem is it, actually?  I'm curious about over-representation in the media as well.

 

 

There was an ad campaign in Edmonton that was posters that would say "Don't be that guy" with messaging along how if she is too drunk to consent, it's not okay.  A Men's Rights group put up posters with similar imagery, pointing out "Don't be that girl" with messaging about how just because you regret it doesn't mean you're consensual.

 

 

It's also interesting because the Steubenville case, as well as one in Nova Scotia (which ultimately ended with the girl killing herself) did not really give me the impression that men are seen as guilty from the get go.  In both situations I think there was a lot of support for the young men and in the case of the Nova Scotia girl, plenty of "**** shaming" as news of her exploits went around.  I think part of the problem for this is that people over state the notion of "cry rape because you regret it" and in these cases, so there's still incidents of "women are vindictive."

 

 

A large problem, in that even if it doesn't happen very much, definitely ARE situations where women falsely cry wolf.  Some overly inebriated women (3 of them) in Edmonton wanted to take a taxi, and when they were belligerent the taxi driver kicked them out of the cab.  In response, they started accusing him of touching them and called the police on him.  Fortunately, the cab driver had it all on video and no charges were laid, but man oh man did those women ever do something that is very serious and should never be done because it only undermines the capabilities of legitimate victims to seek help.  Was so frustrating.  I am worried, however, that these incidents while rare get great exposure, leading them to happen more often than not.

 

Especially among later teens and young adults, however, I definitely get the impression that a lot of people feel that rape accusations come from women with regrets/vindictiveness, rather than actual victims.  I don't know if this is a fair interpretation based on actual behaviour, but my gut tells me that it's probably not.

 

 

You make some good points on a relevant topic, the issue I have is with peoples perspective is what you raised. There are cases of men being raped and women crying wolf or being vindictive. But these are very small compared to the actual and continued rape of women by men.

 

In South Africa we have a real problem around rape. We had 64,000 reported cases of rape last year but apparently only 1 in 6 women report the act. So we talking about  nearly 400,000 rape incidents a year. That's 1000 per day !!!!

 

And I can guarantee that all these rapes are not women making it up or being bitter about some man treating them badly

[Walsingham]

Alan: there have been a couple of cases recently in the UK where a woman was provably falsifying a rape claim, and iirc the courts threw the book at them. Because as you say it undermines real victims. Not surprising that they do it, given some people are just full of hate, only shocking.

 

~~

 

Grom: I concede and understand that there are cultural differences in who is the perceived victim. It is good to raise the point, because it will be news to some members, I'm sure. It also informs our understanding of the various societal reactions to the problem.

 

However, knowing victims of rape I would assert without hesitation that the victim is the woman whose body has been violated. They are the ones who lie awake at night. They are the ones who kill themselves, or are the ones who get killed by their supposed fellow victims in order to restore some spurious honour. They are those ones who bleed, or contract HIV, or have forced pregnancies.

 

~~

 

There will be a point in time where we can ask intellectual questions about fine lines when it comes to rape. The reality at present is that Worldwide there is that the fine shades are lost in a solid inky darkness of violent unquestionable coercion and assault. Born - according to the OP research - in a sense of entitlement.

[Gromnir]

rape is... evil. is no recognition o' cultural differences that will make us think otherwise. nevertheless, the thread itself questions how is it possible that 25% o' asian men can possibly be admitting to being perpetrators o' rape. *shrug* am not making excuses so much as we is explaining. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorgon]

The main problem is that the survey skips the question of consent and attempts to ask without asking, in doing so catching more people with that net than rapists. If it asked outright one can assume that most respondents would just lie, but this is a flawed solution.

[alanschu]

 

 

Alan: there have been a couple of cases recently in the UK where a woman was provably falsifying a rape claim, and iirc the courts threw the book at them. Because as you say it undermines real victims. Not surprising that they do it, given some people are just full of hate, only shocking.

 

I have nooooooo doubt that there are people that do bad bad things that make it worse for all of us.  I'm just curious because, with my own assumptions, I wouldn't be surprised if an event like this is so shocking that it's exposure is higher because it has a lot of good things going for it for a media story.

[Volourn]

"at the same time being a rapist is an accidental effect due to said machismo."

 

By definition, rape can never be 'accidental'.

 

Also, rape is always sexual. Other things can play a role but sex is #1. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

 

 

 

"I'm curious about over-representation in the media as well."

 

I'm sure it is under under represented in the media.

 

 

 

"but apparently only 1 in 6 women report the act."

 

if it is unreported, how do you know this? the illogicalness of this statement is hialrious.

 

 

 

"However, knowing victims of rape I would assert without hesitation that the victim is the woman whose body has been violated. They are the ones who lie awake at night. They are the ones who kill themselves, or are the ones who get killed by their supposed fellow victims in order to restore some spurious honour. They are those ones who bleed, or contract HIV, or have forced pregnancies."

 

I agree but I'll change one thing. The victim is the one was raped. Gender does not matter.

[Walsingham]

rape is... evil. is no recognition o' cultural differences that will make us think otherwise. nevertheless, the thread itself questions how is it possible that 25% o' asian men can possibly be admitting to being perpetrators o' rape. *shrug* am not making excuses so much as we is explaining. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Fair does. I got a bit carried away, in to the bargain.

[alanschu]

I agree but I'll change one thing. The victim is the one was raped. Gender does not matter.

 

This is indeed true.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure it is under under represented in the media.

 

I guess I more meant that I was curious how common false accusations are relative to their rates of reporting, compared to genuine cases of rape/sexual assault and how frequently the media reports on those.

Edited September 13, 2013 by alanschu

[JFSOCC]

There was a documentary on tv a while back here showing that false rape accusations had become part and parcel in some African nations where the UN has instated special courts in places where rape had been common.

 

apparently it was a fairly easy way to get someone convicted, and it was used to deal with perceived sleights and old animosities.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

Story on BBC

 

My emphasis:

 

 

 

In Cambodia, China and Indonesia it ranged from one in five to almost half of all men surveyed.

 

 

 China and Indya  (and other  Asians independent from West) are bad, blah-blah

 

IRL statistics

http://www.statisticbrain.com/rape-statistics/

http://messymatters.com/rape/

http://www.uschina.usc.edu/w_usci/showarticle.aspx?articleID=13037&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

 

The U.S. Department of State reported  31,833 rapes in 2007, though the Chinese government has not released official statistics for that year. In 2005, the last year for which official Chinese statistics are available, the official number was merely 15,000.

 

In other words  31,833 rapes in China = 2,12 rate/100 000. Meanwhile in US 28.0 rate/100 000, in UK 23.1 rate/100 00.  Western states are leaders in Rapes. Welcome to real world.

 

 

This is actually correct. Even with the presumption that under-reporting is more prevalent in asian countries the US far outstrips most, if not all countries in rape. 

 

While rapes do happen everywhere I have a hard time believing that its more common in any traditional society. Not because of morals but because of repercussions. In places were its important for a woman to enter marriage as a virgin, to forcibly take away her virginity is enough reason for serious bloodshed, police or no police. 

[HoonDing]

Asian women need a powerful western man to protect them.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1vPYM1d3wo

[TrashMan]

 

 

Peopel from different cultures can have diffeent views? How is that surprising?

 

Also, rape IS about sex. TI's the entire point.

If rape was just about power, than anyone who is abusing his power over you is raping you.

 

Rape in almost all cases is not about sex and anyone who has spent just a little time researching the reasons behind it would be aware of that. Consider this a free education Trashman. And they say you can't learn anything on the gaming forum 

 

http://www.articlesbase.com/womens-issues-articles/rape-is-about-power-control-and-anger-not-sex-1345819.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/29/rape-about-power-not-sex

 

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/rape-is-about-power-learn-to-wield-it-to-fight-rape/20130823.htm

 

 

You can keep your articles Bruce, I'm not interested.

I don't need a lesson.

Rape is about sex. Not saying there isn't an element of power, because obviously in order to rape one msut overpower the victim. But rape cannot happen wihout sex. It is the prime action.

 

Anyone who sez otherwise is delluding themselves. Then again, we all have our theories we want to push as the Ultimate Truth

 

 

 

 

 

 

Disney tends to put forward a misogynist and old-fashioned world view in which women are objectified. This child starlets are as unprotected and exploited as any victim is. No wonder then that they help perpetuate such foolishness.

 

It's not a problem specific to Disney OR women.

Showbuisness, marketing, captialism, greed and desire for fame and fortune.

Toddlers and Tiaras anyone?

Fame and showbuisness destroys people on a regular basis. It just does worse damage to kids.

[TrashMan]

There are 3 kinds of lies:

Lied, damn lies and statistics.

 

Keep that in mind folks.

 

 

 

 

rape is... evil. is no recognition o' cultural differences that will make us think otherwise.

 

Of course it won't. That statement is kinda redundant.

Regardless if people believe in objective or subjective morality, they have one thing in common - they all belive that their morality is the "right" one.

[Bartimaeus]

I don't need a lesson.

You can keep your articles Bruce, I'm not interested.

 

Rape is about sex. Not saying there isn't an element of power, because obviously in order to rape one msut overpower the victim. But rape cannot happen wihout sex. It is the prime action.

 

Anyone who sez otherwise is delluding themselves. Then again, we all have our theories we want to push as the Ultimate Truth

 

I don't need a lesson. You can keep your opinion, TrashMan, I'm not interested.

 

Arguing against people who show complete contempt of what you're saying and refuse to even *consider* your point of view seems like a total waste of time on everyone's end to me, but maybe that's just me. What kind of crappy discussion/argument involves people just ignoring the opposition's supporting details/arguments? What's the point of even saying your piece when they could retort with the same exact cop out thing you just said?

 

Hurray for insulated thinking. 

Edited September 13, 2013 by Bartimaeus

[Malcador]

Also, rape is always sexual. Other things can play a role but sex is #1. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

You clearly have not written some Engineering exams.

[Walsingham]

I was just about to rattle off a number of studies, and illustrative narratives on rape being a power play as much as sexual, but then I thought "why ****ing bother?"

 

"Lies, damned lies and statistics" does NOT mean that all statistics are lies. It means some of them are. But the neat - and very important - thing is that when those statistics are compiled by reputable researchers in a peer-reviewed study, the lies are falsifiable. Either mathematically or by derivative studies.

 

That's the difference between good science, and standing on a box shouting about how you're right and everyone else is deluded.

[Volourn]

 Sometimes the obvious is the correction answer. It is obvious rape is about sex more often than not.  I don't know any study/reaearch/poll will ever to be genuinely be able to actually 'prove' it one way or the other so I find all studies on the issue highly suspect.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

To get out of the inevitable downward spiral that happens everytime someone takes Trashy seriously, I would like to discuss the rate of rape in Western nations. I've read some explanations that rape stats will generally be higher in nations where 1) rape is not seen as shameful for the victim 2) rape is considered more than a violent act of violation and 3) rapists are more likely to be punished and the victim will not be. Do any of you think this has any merit?

[Walsingham]

That rather depends on how the stats were collected. If they are official police stats then I would anticipate a higher recorded rate when police are trained, equipped, and able to successfully prosecute.

 

EDIT: To clarify, rape victims do not always come forward immediately. Meaning that there has to be some tendency to just want to hide and pretend it wasn't all that bad or maybe you asked for it, or maybe it was etc etc. To consider filing charges there must be some perception that you are going to be treated professionally and sympathetically by the cops. AND that they are going to follow up and investigate thoroughly.

 

This is why the police (at least in the UK) talk at the conclusion of cases about the courage and integrity of the victims in giving evidence. They believe it leads to a greater willingness by victims to speak out.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Walsingham

[Oerwinde]

As an aside, the 4 indian men who gang raped and murdered the girl on the bus andbeat her male friend half to death have been sentenced to death.

[kgambit]

“Note though that comparison of crime rates across countries needs to be taken with a grain of salt, since in some countries the population may be reluctant to report certain types of crimes to the police.”

Source: http://geocurrents.info/geography-of-crime-and-punishment/misleading-murder-and-rape-maps-and-the-the-sweden-rape-puzzle#ixzz2eVf1nKKu

 

 

The recent statistics comparing India and the U.S. imply higher rates here in the U.S., but the actual facts don’t quite add up. In 2012, over 24,000 cases of rape in India were reported, calculating approximately two rapes per every 100,000 people. In the U.S., the chance of a person being raped is reported to be 13 times more likely. But the severe discrepancy between the two countries isn’t exactly a mystery, as local surveys in Indian through the past 25 years revealed approximately 1 to 4 percent of Indian women acknowledged having been raped–which brings the rate of rape in India to between 50 and 200 times greater than reported by the Indian government.   http://guardianlv.com/2013/09/rape-statistics-much-greater-than-reports-reveal/

 

[Note:  I think the 50 to 200 times is gross exaggeration.  If you assume a total of 1 to 4% of the female population spread over 50 years (ages 15 to 65), you end up with between 10 and 40 per 100,000.], So the under-reporting port is still valid imo.

 

Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm. She says you cannot compare countries’ records, because police procedures and legal definitions vary widely. In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics,” she says. “So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record – one victim, one type of crime, one record

Source: http://geocurrents.info/geography-of-crime-and-punishment/misleading-murder-and-rape-maps-and-the-the-sweden-rape-puzzle#ixzz2eVeSdFdv

 

 

Kaine, I think those sources all lend a little support to your arguments. 

 

The under-reporting issue also rears it's head in murder rates: 

 

There is a long and inglorious tradition of under-reported crime rates in Russia. In part, this sometimes reflects the state’s unwillingness to admit the scale of the problem; in part, the police themselves choosing to ignore crimes or report them as being less serious than they really are; and in part, ‘latent crime’ resulting from public unwillingness to turn to the authorities, whether out of mistrust or simply because they don’t think there is any point.

 

To take the example of the murder rate, which officially had fallen to 18,200 in 2009, [or a rate of 11.15 per 100,000] the report notes that this only reflects murder investigations, and accounting for reported murders where no cases were opened brings that year’s figure to 46,200. In addition, though, 77,900 unidentified dead bodies were found that year and another 48,500 people were reported missing.

http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/bad-news-official-russian-crime-data-are-under-reports-good-news-russian-academics-are-digging-out-the-real-data/

 

This discussion also reminds of this phrase:  "Don't let the truth intrude upon my reality."

Edited September 13, 2013 by kgambit

[JFSOCC]

thanks kgambit for making the argument I was too lazy to make.

[kgambit]

Correction: 

 

In the second quote above, this line: 

 

" If you assume a total of 1 to 4% of the female population spread over 50 years (ages 15 to 65), you end up with between 10 and 40 per 100,000.] "

 

should read as follow:

 

" If you assume a total of 1 to 4% of the female population spread over 50 years (ages 15 to 65), you end up with a rate 10 to 40 times greater or a rate of 20 to 80 per 100,000.], "

 

apologies for the error ......

[Zoraptor]

From the BBC House of Cards series I presume?

 

Yep. I presume the US version had an equivalent to Maddy Storin- intrepid girl reporter, well known gerontophile, mortal enemy gravity- as well as Francis U/ Frank U but the series has not arrived here yet and netflix has geoIP locking.

[Zoraptor]

"Lies, damned lies and statistics" does NOT mean that all statistics are lies. It means some of them are. But the neat - and very important - thing is that when those statistics are compiled by reputable researchers in a peer-reviewed study, the lies are falsifiable. Either mathematically or by derivative studies.

Yeah, with statistics it's all about knowing the limitations of the statistics and the uses those statistics are put to. I have little doubt that the initial study here is flawed, but just about every statistical study is unless it's based on unimpeachable objective fact. Even statistics for reported and solved crimes don't qualify for this status since they're open to manipulation by police wanting to look better than they are and systematically under or over reporting or downgrading offences, may include both false complaints and genuine complaints that are withdrawn under direct or implied duress and a host of other factors. The only thing that can be done is to approach the question at hand as honestly as possible and to note potential sources of error and bias, something that any study with scientific pretensions ought to do. In this case you're dealing with two very large problems, human intentions and interpretations, and human memory.

 

Even if you do take a good scientific approach there's still the risk of the media- or interested parties- embiggening the story for their own purposes. That doesn't really effect the validity of the statistics themselves though.