Update #63: Stronghold!

[Messier-31]

Then we're all evil, because no one is never selfish. Case closed, I guess. Doesn't matter if you slaughter an entire nation, or don't share gum with a friend. Evil is evil. No point in distinguishing the two. *dusts off hands*

 

"Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling… makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another, I’d rather not choose at all."

[neo6874]

That, and evil is such a broad term in RPGs. I'd imagine many people who swear they don't commit evil acts, actually *do*, they just don't realize it. Selfishness is considered evil, for example. Thus if you ever killed Drizzt in BG1 to get his shiny Scimitars, then you are playing evil. And in BG2, if you refuse to give the silver sword blade back to the Githyanki when they ask you to... then you're playing Evil.

 

etc.

 

 

I'd counter that not returning an evil person's stuff is not necessarily "selfish".  I mean, would a cleric of Ilmater or a Paladin of Tyr be considered "selfish" if they're keeping the holy symbol of Bane from that cleric over there? 

 

What I mean is, that one needs more than just "keeping [item]" to call an act "selfish" ... if that Githyanki blade is returned, what acts would it do with the sword?  Not to mention, you're a bit hamstrung sometimes in the games -- "give us the sword, and we'll kill you quickly".

Edited November 22, 2013 by neo6874

[Stun]

Then we're all evil, because no one is never selfish. Case closed, I guess. Doesn't matter if you slaughter an entire nation, or don't share gum with a friend. Evil is evil. No point in distinguishing the two. *dusts off hands*

 

[/sarcasm]

Yes? Or, more specifically, we all do evil things on occasion. Although, D&D has a classification for people who's actions are all over the place: Neutral.

 

See, this is why I love games that track your moral decisions and tie them to an alignment system. In such games, your "role playing" is put to the test, and it's fun to see the end result. You can learn a lot about your own play habits if you simply let the game judge you, without trying to achieve a specific result.

 

I once did a Playthrough of Planescape Torment with that mindset. By the end of the game, my Nameless One had racked up a Chaotic Good Alighnment.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Stun

[Lephys]

^ Fair enough.

[Mamoulian War]

I am sorry, but I was not paying a lot of attention to this forum, sooo:

 

Any news about possibility of organizing tea parties at the stronghold? Preferably at player defined time each day... Nothing better than a cup of Earl Gray with a drop of milk at 5pm, before kicking some serious butt at the Infinite Dungeon...

[Lephys]

I am sorry, but I was not paying a lot of attention to this forum, sooo:

 

Any news about possibility of organizing tea parties at the stronghold? Preferably at player defined time each day... Nothing better than a cup of Earl Gray with a drop of milk at 5pm, before kicking some serious butt at the Infinite Dungeon...

 

I think if you build/renovate the Tea Time Veranda, you get a Classiness bonus when resting.

[Messier-31]

Jolly good.

[sirchet]

Very well, I'll accept that.

[tazntaylr]

So looking forward to this. Would have loved this in the Baldurs Gate, Fallout, and Forgotten Realms games.

[Ovidius]

Sounds really good and I'm looking forward to this part of the game.

 

Quick question, and I apologize if this has been answered as I haven't looked through the 20+ pages in this thread for lack of time, but these visitors that come to your stronghold that can be beneficial or a hindrance... will you have the option to kill them or take them prisoner instead of telling them to get lost or having them escorted of the premises?

 

Thanks.

[Lokerim]

This looks seriously awesome.  I am so glad I backed this project.

[Nyhilla]

Sounds really good and I'm looking forward to this part of the game.

 

Quick question, and I apologize if this has been answered as I haven't looked through the 20+ pages in this thread for lack of time, but these visitors that come to your stronghold that can be beneficial or a hindrance... will you have the option to kill them or take them prisoner instead of telling them to get lost or having them escorted of the premises?

 

Thanks.

 

Yes ! Yes yes ! YES ! I want this option ^^

[Posbi]

Well, since this is the Stronghold thread I might just as well post this here.

 

So, I'm late to the party. Probably too late. But here's my two cents.

 

Okay, I've thought a bit about what kept me unsatisfied/worried about the player stronghold preview and I think I've been able to pin my worries down by now: the preview, well, it's less than stellar on several levels. Yes, I know that's harsh, and it is not meant as an accusation against the people who do the modeling and rendering, and I apologize if I've just insulted them. However, having said that, here's my reasoning for being so critical. The problems are on the conceptual level.

 

Project Eternity and its background try to present a world rooted in what I'd call magical realism (it's fantasy with magic and monsters, but adheres to basic RL logic), a world that's going through a political, economic and technological transition. There's a been a war, there are still tensions, and the placement and design of fortifications and settlements should represent as much. Even if we don't go with the full medieval European design there are a few basic functions any stronghold's placement would come down to, regardless of cultural and/or time period inspiration: border protection, trade route protection, vital landmark protection (river ford, mountain pass, etc.), settlement protection. From this also flows its general design.

 

Example? Crossroads Keep from NWN2. It presides over a crossroads, a junction of trade routes.

 

What it does needs to be represented in the general map layout (what is its basic function?) - is it watching over a river ford, is it controlling a trade route, is it the administrative center over nearby villages, etc. - as well as it needs to show in the keep's own layout (design). What the stronghold has to have is an ingame meta-function that goes beyond player stronghold. It needs a raison d'être, a reason why it's there in the first place!

 

 

What we have here is just an artificial hodgepodge of elements that, by and large, have no right to exist there in the first place. You need to decide what this place's original meta-function was/is and develop it from there on. Because right now it's just a shambles of disparate elements that are placed there because you want them, and not because they make any kind of in-game sense. I know that what we see is a WIP, so my critcism can only be limited and based on the elements we are shown here. And there is one thing that holds true for almost every interpretation of a stronghold: Inside the walls space is a limited commodity.

 

Is it a fortress?

Then where are moat and drawbridge and weapons emplacements? And why does it look more like a theme park? Where are the stables and barracks and forges, and why does everything waste so much space? You do realize how a fortress looks, don't you? It's huge, imposing and uses the terrain to its advantage. This here is a fortress (Krak des Chevaliers):

 

Is it a noble's manor?

Then why is the house we see on the upper right corner so dull and small, and why is the place so heavily fortified? A manor isn't a fortress; it's a place where you live your everyday life in the highest possible amount of comfort.

 

Is it a settlement?

Too few houses spread too far; no obvious craftsmen; no seat of power. Now, settlements don't need to have seats of power, but since it's supposed to be your settlement... Take this here, for example. It's pre-medieval but conveys the idea well enough.

Houses are clustered closely together to save space. The larger the space, the more able bodied men are needed to defend it! Limited agriculture is done inside the courtyards of each house cluster. This holds true to an even greater extent for walled medieval/renaissance-era settlement.

 

A castle/noble's keep?

Too much space is wasted, there's no visible center to it all, and it's not fortified enough. Worst of all - and that counts for all iterations aside from the manor house - there's no visible geographic component that suggest why the thing's been placed there in the first place. Take this here, for example. It sits on an elevated rock formation and guards a small river and a trade route below:

 

 

The thing you have to ask yourselves is "What was this place, and how can it become what we want it to be?" Right now the apparent logic simply seems to be "We want a player stronghold with pre-existing accomodations for different races and classes." What needs to be established, however, is why such a place exists right there in the first place, and why it exists in its current form.

 

So, what does this mean for the general design of the place?

First, lets sum up what we have so far: you have to make up your minds why this place is where it is for what reason BEFORE the player becomes the owner. What was its original function, and does what we have fit that description?

Secondly, how can you achieve what you want without it looking as - sorry guys - ridiculously stupid as the images above?

 

And the most simple and versatile alternative here would be a tower keep sitting on a rock spur above a river ford. You can literally use that for everything. Want a maze? Nearby woods. A place for bards to perform? Your great hall or a tavern at the foot of the hill. You're a mage? Then this is your mage tower. Fighter? Noble. And each of those variants can be mixed, and your stronghold can expand organically to fit them. It also allows for enough accomodation inside to house your companions, and offers enough of a reasonable location to have mini-quests, battles and you doing "administrative" work.

 

This here, for example, would be a decent player stronghold in opinion.

 

Whatever you do, please promise me it'll make more sense than what you have now.

[Stormbold]

Prisoners! Oh this should be interesting

[cresentdark]

Ya I know my post is late however it can be upgraded so we really don't know what it will look like when it's fully upgraded. It may be a massive fort it may be a wall that protects a small town and within your town you have your manor. They said that you can upgrade the stronghold and your house as two separate things both within the same area. So it may start as a small town or look un clustered but overtime may turn into a massive home base really can't say at this moment. Also the only money you will make won't be much at all due to the tax from your soldiers and the like unless you don't have them then your play will be attacked and no one will be there to protect it and it will fall apart meaning all that time wasted. The stronghold will prob have a charter where you say you will have x amount of soldiers and pay them x amount also repairs will spend x amount on and then you will get x amount after each week or so thus leaving you with hardly any cash. The only way I can see you making money is once all the upgrades are done and that depends on how much that will take hopefully it takes a while I want to see a small place turn into a massive for but that's me wishing.

[CoarseDragon]

A fantastic idea and a great preview of the Stronghold. Awesome!!

[rjshae]

What we have here is just an artificial hodgepodge of elements that, by and large, have no right to exist there in the first place. You need to decide what this place's original meta-function was/is and develop it from there on. Because right now it's just a shambles of disparate elements that are placed there because you want them, and not because they make any kind of in-game sense. I know that what we see is a WIP, so my critcism can only be limited and based on the elements we are shown here. And there is one thing that holds true for almost every interpretation of a stronghold: Inside the walls space is a limited commodity.

 

Well the easy answer is: this is a fantasy setting so the purpose was unique.

 

But, in trying to rationalize it, perhaps the original reason for constructing the walls no longer exists and the interior buildings were added later, then abandoned? It would be intriguing to find some almost completely ruined structures inside the curtain wall, implying a violent past when the stronghold was invested, captured, and the interior structures razed.

[Elshara]

very excited for strongholds! 

ALSO - wanted to ask - if you can own more than one pet - then will the stronghold have a place to let your pets relax when they are not traveling with you  ? (sorry if this has been asked before- I dont have time to read 21 pages of comments ! )  

Edited April 21, 2014 by Elshara

[Linkamus]

Assuming there is an alignment similar to that of 'chaotic good', will there be an option to NOT tax the surrounding lands of your stronghold? As typically a chaotic good character would not believe in coerced taxation (legalized theft).

 

I'm also wondering if you take a unique NPC as prisoner, if you still get his uber loots before you take them in?

[JFSOCC]

I don't know if it will be in or not, but it will not be based on alignment, as those are not in the game.

[Linkamus]

I don't know if it will be in or not, but it will not be based on alignment, as those are not in the game.

Aw, I didn't realize that. Well I would still want to role play as a certain alignment. I typically role play as chaotic good, and I just wouldn't feel right stealing from a bunch of innocent farmers trying to make a living .

Edited May 6, 2014 by Linkamus

[Lephys]

I'm going to make an all-Rogue party. They're going to "tax" the entire realm, with or without a stronghold. *wink wink*...

[Mor]

Looking at the slideshow with supposed ingame map, I just realized that our stronghold isn't in Dyrwood, its in Eir glanfath side of border. So its probably an abandoned relic from the time Ayder Empire was in charge, built as forward operating base or for defense during its drive into the area and the two wars that followed.

[PrimeJunta]

Only noticed @Posbi's excellent post now, and I gotta say I concur. There's nothing wrong with having disparate elements there but the whole should make sense. It wouldn't even be all that hard to rearrange them for that.

 

Have a village surrounded by a stockade with the craftsmen and services, nearby the manor with the topiary maze, surrounded by a hedge, overlooked by a tightly-packed, walled keep at a higher location. The amphitheater can be an ancient ruin nearby that you can rehabilitate if you want. The hedge and stockade are enough to keep occasional bandits away, the keep is big enough to hold the villagers, lord, and entourage in case of a full-scale military attack, and in peacetime it all works together.

 

Although it probably is far too late for that. If so, a pity; bit of a missed opportunity there, especially considering Josh is a history and warfare nerd.

[diabeetus]

I apologise if this has already been asked, but as I'm at work I can't risk being seen trawling through all the replies! 

Will there be class-based strongholds? What I mean by this is will there be a different type of building/area depending on class. For example, Baldur's Gate II had a castle for your fighter-types, the planar sphere for the magic-types, and the druid's grove/temple for the hippy/religious-types!

I ask because as an avid mage, reading "you cannot build your Training Grounds (and get your Strength bonus after resting at the stronghold) until you have repaired the inner bailey of the stronghold." filled me with trepidation as I'm a musty old sorcerer who just wants a tower and a library.

 

Of course, I understand time and money constraints of adding these sorts of things, but they could perhaps be considered for expansions if not vanilla. Otherwise, I shall mod them in!

 

As this is my first post, I'll also add: Thanks for all the hard work bringing us back to the golden age of RPG gaming! It looks awesome and I wish I had caught it on Kickstarter.