About hate-mail and other online abuse.

[JFSOCC]

Let me put up a disclaimer to say I think this community is awesome, it's seen some of the most intelligent discussions and polite arguments of any forum I've been on, and I've been on a fair few.

 

A few weeks ago, there was a controversial update, about the durability mechanic introduced with crafting.

And under an atmosphere which was at times hostile, the game developers stayed cool under pressure and used to feedback to change the mechanic.

 

Good for the game, good of the developers.

 

I've since also noticed they're not hanging around the forums so much more.

 

Today I read this article, and I think it sums up the problem nicely.

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/swimming-in-a-sea-of-****-the-internets-war-against-creatives

 

And I'm posting this as a sort of public service announcement for civility and friendly debate.

Game developers have to deal with a ton of stress from social interaction. And any single post could be taken with grace.

But we're a social DDOS. When a group of people gets passionate, you're not going to get that negativity once, you'll get it from a lot of sources at once. Often all for the same thing.

 

I enjoy the interaction with the developers, I think it's one of the coolest things about Project: Eternity.

so I hope no-one sent any hate-mail or angry worded letters, off these boards or on it.

 

For the Devs, I'd like to say, everyone here is here because we believe in Project Eternity, and we're passionate. I don;t think anyone would be here otherwise.

For the forumites, I'd say, you're awesome, but stay vigilant, and think about the impact your words might have.

 

And to the Devs, if any of us, myself included, take away from your enjoyment of this project, let us know. A happy dev is a good one

[Kjaamor]

I mentioned in another topic that it often feels wierd just being in some of the more heated debates, because knowing that you're in a public forum with the people involved in creation it often feels that what might otherwise be discussions turn, often as we bounce our opinions off each other, into quite direct attacks upon the work of the developers.

 

Of course I have opinions, of course I have concerns, but I hope I haven't been a **** about it.

 

In another thread, I also mentioned that I find it amazing that the Dev's even read this stuff, because if it was me I would just find it a mountain of stress.

 

Well done and thanks to the developers, however passionate about minor issues I might get.

[Ignatius]

Whatever negativity is sent Josh Sawyer's way is easily counter balanced by Roguey over on the RPG Codex. Yes, I know that's an inside joke.

[Sacred_Path]

As far as ****-flinging goes, the outcry following the crafting update was still very civil. Just sayin

[BruceVC]

Nice article JFSOCC

 

But I have a solution to reduce the level of vehemence and criticism.... avoid Social Media. Its as simple as that. The author says "You can't give up on Twitter, because it's too good of a tool for interaction with your fans". That's nonsense,  people choose to use Social Media as a means to communicate. What did people do 4 years to give updates? If I was a victim of abuse I would just use a website and post weekly comments. There is this real problem where people feel the need to update everyone all the time on what they doing and why they do it. And end of the day you become a victim of a tool that you don't need to use.

 

Of course I'm  not suggesting the level of abuse is acceptable but you won't change people making emotional comments so just remove the mechanism they use from your life and I promise you your stress levels will decrease

[C2B]

While it's true that some hate always gets thrown around you have to learn how to deal with it since you can prevent it. I do think many Obsidian devs are capable of that, as they have been dealing with the codex for years. You just can't let it get too close emotionally. Granted, it would be swell if the population grew up.

 

The case of Phil Fish reflected in the article, though.... is a special one.

 

Because he invented it 100% for himself. He constantly acts arrogant, insults people (openly at a indie panel he (and others) went down on another dev) and acts all scared when someone actually goes after him. He can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

As such I don't actually have much sympathy with the guy. Grow up.

[Hormalakh]

Let me put up a disclaimer to say I think this community is awesome, it's seen some of the most intelligent discussions and polite arguments of any forum I've been on, and I've been on a fair few.

 

A few weeks ago, there was a controversial update, about the durability mechanic introduced with crafting.

And under an atmosphere which was at times hostile, the game developers stayed cool under pressure and used to feedback to change the mechanic.

 

Good for the game, good of the developers.

 

I've since also noticed they're not hanging around the forums so much more.

 

Today I read this article, and I think it sums up the problem nicely.

http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/swimming-in-a-sea-of-****-the-internets-war-against-creatives

 

And I'm posting this as a sort of public service announcement for civility and friendly debate.

Game developers have to deal with a ton of stress from social interaction. And any single post could be taken with grace.

But we're a social DDOS. When a group of people gets passionate, you're not going to get that negativity once, you'll get it from a lot of sources at once. Often all for the same thing.

 

I enjoy the interaction with the developers, I think it's one of the coolest things about Project: Eternity.

so I hope no-one sent any hate-mail or angry worded letters, off these boards or on it.

 

For the Devs, I'd like to say, everyone here is here because we believe in Project Eternity, and we're passionate. I don;t think anyone would be here otherwise.

For the forumites, I'd say, you're awesome, but stay vigilant, and think about the impact your words might have.

 

And to the Devs, if any of us, myself included, take away from your enjoyment of this project, let us know. A happy dev is a good one

 

they aren't on the forums as much because they're working on the vertical slice. it's ok to be critical of their decisions because that is what they wanted. some people are obnoxious but there are still enough good people out there that realize that obsidian is awesome at what they do for people like Sawyer and co to realize we appreciate their efforts.

 

these guys are professionals. the amount of bile they have to deal with when dealing with scum that are publishers is NOTHING compared to a few dummy comments from puerile children about a specific game mechanic. someone saying "wahh I hate crafting skill" isn't going to take food away from the mouths of the dev's family; bonuses based on obnoxious metacritic scores does.

 

 

While it's true that some hate always gets thrown around you have to learn how to deal with it since you can prevent it. I do think many Obsidian devs are capable of that, as they have been dealing with the codex for years. You just can't let it get too close emotionally. Granted, it would be swell if the population grew up.

 

The case of Phil Fish reflected in the article, though.... is a special one.

 

Because he invented it 100% for himself. He constantly acts arrogant, insults people (openly at a indie panel he (and others) went down on another dev) and acts all scared when someone actually goes after him. He can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

As such I don't actually have much sympathy with the guy. Grow up.

 

I suspected as much. it's a rare case for a person to have enough hate against him from a group and for him to have done no wrong. doesn't excuse the treatment. although the COD comments were particularly crazy: that's a special kind of moron.

 

also what is this about the codex? a lot of the most interesting discussions about RPGs and P:E specifically occur on RPGCodex. It seems some of you guys are projecting your own feelings about the Codex onto the devs from Obsidian. 

Edited July 30, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Gorgon]

It seems to me that one can have a professional online presence with the simple adherence to a few ground rules. Do not take youtube comments to heart for instance.

 

As a public persona trying to get something out of that presence in the form of word of mouth, promotion etc. you are also going to take abuse. That's just the nature of the beast.

It's all a show though. They aren't your friends and the persona you share isn't the real you.

 

It's potentially dangerous to become addicted to the buzz around your persona, and if you start confusing that buzz with real sentiment you could get hurt. So, maybe stepping back from the whole thing for a while is a good idea.

 

So, basically Boo Hoo cry me a river.

[C2B]

 

Let me put up a disclaimer to say I think this community is awesome, it's seen some of the most intelligent discussions and polite arguments of any forum I've been on, and I've been on a fair few.

A few weeks ago, there was a controversial update, about the durability mechanic introduced with crafting.

And under an atmosphere which was at times hostile, the game developers stayed cool under pressure and used to feedback to change the mechanic.

Good for the game, good of the developers.

I've since also noticed they're not hanging around the forums so much more.

Today I read this article, and I think it sums up the problem nicely.http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/swimming-in-a-sea-of-****-the-internets-war-against-creatives

And I'm posting this as a sort of public service announcement for civility and friendly debate.

Game developers have to deal with a ton of stress from social interaction. And any single post could be taken with grace.

But we're a social DDOS. When a group of people gets passionate, you're not going to get that negativity once, you'll get it from a lot of sources at once. Often all for the same thing.

I enjoy the interaction with the developers, I think it's one of the coolest things about Project: Eternity.

so I hope no-one sent any hate-mail or angry worded letters, off these boards or on it.

For the Devs, I'd like to say, everyone here is here because we believe in Project Eternity, and we're passionate. I don;t think anyone would be here otherwise.

For the forumites, I'd say, you're awesome, but stay vigilant, and think about the impact your words might have.

And to the Devs, if any of us, myself included, take away from your enjoyment of this project, let us know. A happy dev is a good one

 

 

they aren't on the forums as much because they're working on the vertical slice. it's ok to be critical of their decisions because that is what they wanted. some people are obnoxious but there are still enough good people out there that realize that obsidian is awesome at what they do for people like Sawyer and co to realize we appreciate their efforts.

 

these guys are professionals. the amount of bile they have to deal with when dealing with scum that are publishers is NOTHING compared to a few dummy comments from puerile children about a specific game mechanic. someone saying "wahh I hate crafting skill" isn't going to take food away from the mouths of the dev's family; bonuses based on obnoxious metacritic scores does.

 

 

 

While it's true that some hate always gets thrown around you have to learn how to deal with it since you can prevent it. I do think many Obsidian devs are capable of that, as they have been dealing with the codex for years. You just can't let it get too close emotionally. Granted, it would be swell if the population grew up.

 

The case of Phil Fish reflected in the article, though.... is a special one.

 

Because he invented it 100% for himself. He constantly acts arrogant, insults people (openly at a indie panel he (and others) went down on another dev) and acts all scared when someone actually goes after him. He can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

As such I don't actually have much sympathy with the guy. Grow up.

 

I suspected as much. it's a rare case for a person to have enough hate against him from a group and for him to have done no wrong. doesn't excuse the treatment. although the COD comments were particularly crazy: that's a special kind of moron.

 

also what is this about the codex? a lot of the most interesting discussions about RPGs and P:E specifically occur on RPGCodex. It seems some of you guys are projecting your own feelings about the Codex onto the devs from Obsidian.

 

Phil Fish said "suck my ****. Choke on it" upon winning a award. It nearly does. The guy's terrible himself.

 

And I didn't say anything about the codex discussions. In context I was referring to the codex rough nature/environment.

[JFSOCC]

Nice article JFSOCC

 

But I have a solution to reduce the level of vehemence and criticism.... avoid Social Media. Its as simple as that. The author says "You can't give up on Twitter, because it's too good of a tool for interaction with your fans". That's nonsense,  people choose to use Social Media as a means to communicate. What did people do 4 years to give updates? If I was a victim of abuse I would just use a website and post weekly comments. There is this real problem where people feel the need to update everyone all the time on what they doing and why they do it. And end of the day you become a victim of a tool that you don't need to use.

 

Of course I'm  not suggesting the level of abuse is acceptable but you won't change people making emotional comments so just remove the mechanism they use from your life and I promise you your stress levels will decrease

I think it's not as easy as you think to give up a tool which may in the end help your sales. Because for all of the vitriol, social media does have a strong impact. I don't think it's as easy to avoid, especially once you've started using it.

 

 

 

While it's true that some hate always gets thrown around you have to learn how to deal with it since you can[sic] prevent it. I do think many Obsidian devs are capable of that, as they have been dealing with the codex for years. You just can't let it get too close emotionally.

From the Article:

'Someone on Twitter told Jonathan Blow that you can just ignore these messages.

 

“This is false,” he replied. “We can't choose to ignore it. As soon as the words are read, they have already hit emotionally.”'

 

The case of Phil Fish reflected in the article, though.... is a special one.

 

Because he invented it 100% for himself. He constantly acts arrogant, insults people (openly at a indie panel he (and others) went down on another dev) and acts all scared when someone actually goes after him. He can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

As such I don't actually have much sympathy with the guy. Grow up.

That is victim blaming. Phil Fish acting outside of social mores doesn't give people the right to send abuse his way. Nor do we know if it's cause or consequence. I've seen it happen before recently that someone blew up after suffering abuse for hours on end, and then got seen as the ****. It's important to know the context.

 

 

they aren't on the forums as much because they're working on the vertical slice. it's ok to be critical of their decisions because that is what they wanted. some people are obnoxious but there are still enough good people out there that realize that obsidian is awesome at what they do for people like Sawyer and co to realize we appreciate their efforts.

 

these guys are professionals. the amount of bile they have to deal with when dealing with scum that are publishers is NOTHING compared to a few dummy comments from puerile children about a specific game mechanic. someone saying "wahh I hate crafting skill" isn't going to take food away from the mouths of the dev's family; bonuses based on obnoxious metacritic scores does.

You don't get to see all the feedback, so it's not possible to get an accurate image for us, but I hope you're right.

And yes, of course we should be able to field criticism.

 

 

I suspected as much. it's a rare case for a person to have enough hate against him from a group and for him to have done no wrong.

I'm reminded of a quote by Patrick Stewart, fairly recently, about victim blaming:

 

"As a child, I heard in my home doctors and ambulance men say, 'Mrs Stewart, you must have done something to provoke him', 'Mrs Stewart, it takes two to make an argument'," he said.

 

"Wrong, wrong.

 

"My mother did nothing to provoke that and even if she had, violence is never, ever a choice that a man should make."

I think it can be applied broader. Just because Phil Fish isn't very good at dealing with the pressure, doesn't give people the right to send hate filled messages his way under the pretence of "he had it coming"

 

 

It seems to me that one can have a professional online presence with the simple adherence to a few ground rules. Do not take youtube comments to heart for instance.

 

As a public persona trying to get something out of that presence in the form of word of mouth, promotion etc. you are also going to take abuse. That's just the nature of the beast.

It's all a show though. They aren't your friends and the persona you share isn't the real you.

 

It's potentially dangerous to become addicted to the buzz around your persona, and if you start confusing that buzz with real sentiment you could get hurt. So, maybe stepping back from the whole thing for a while is a good idea.

 

So, basically Boo Hoo cry me a river.

I repeat:

Someone on Twitter told Jonathan Blow that you can just ignore these messages.

 

“This is false,” he replied. “We can't choose to ignore it. As soon as the words are read, they have already hit emotionally.”

You simply can't not take it to heart. 

 

 

Phil Fish said "suck my ****. Choke on it" upon winning a award. It nearly does. The guy's terrible himself.

 

And I didn't say anything about the codex discussions. In context I was referring to the codex rough nature/environment.

I don't know the context in which that happened, but two wrongs still don't make a right.

[Nonek]

I know from personal experience how depressing and hurtful some abusive and downright scathing e-mails and comments can be, I wish the wife and kids would stop sending me them.

 

But seriously, though i've made a few complaints over certain issues I still believe Obsidian will make a cracking game suited to my tastes: They enthralled me with The Sith Lords when I despise Star Wars, they enchanted me with NWN2 when I was very wary following the first games awful campaign, Alpha Protocol was an innovative revelation, New Vegas especially with Mr Sawyers mod a delight, its dlc a model all of the industry should be following, Dungeon Siege 3 one of the best arpg's i've ever experienced and a world away from the distasteful automated combat of the first game.

 

I know it sounds blinkered and fanboyish, but the gentlemen seem to be right up my proverbial alley. Keep on buggering on.

[Sarex]

As for the whole Phil Fish thing, I will just leave this here and you can judge for your selves.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPIcV6zsPw

[C2B]

 

The case of Phil Fish reflected in the article, though.... is a special one.

 

Because he invented it 100% for himself. He constantly acts arrogant, insults people (openly at a indie panel he (and others) went down on another dev) and acts all scared when someone actually goes after him. He can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

As such I don't actually have much sympathy with the guy. Grow up.

That is victim blaming. Phil Fish acting outside of social mores doesn't give people the right to send abuse his way. Nor do we know if it's cause or consequence. I've seen it happen before recently that someone blew up after suffering abuse for hours on end, and then got seen as the ****. It's important to know the context.

 

 

 

I think people here do not realize all the things Phil Fish did over the years

 

Here's some context in video form

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPIcV6zsPw

 

Yeah, Fish insulting a video developer in the face in front of tons of other people is just not a problem compared to being insulted in a twitter discussion. Totally.

 

Or how about his former co-worker that stated that he was impossible to work with. That guy sure has no context.

 

 

Or

 

Or

 

Or

 

Or

 

Or

 

Or

 

Or

 

 

Or a thousand other things. Phil Fish is acting like this CONSTANTLY. They aren't isolated incidents at ALL. If they were, I would have nothing against that guy.

 

 

 

What I'm saying here is. I agree with the topic's intent. There's too much vitrol about game developers. What I DON'T agree on is the article. Being a creative guy is NO JUSTIFICATION to being a ****. And it sure as hell isn't if you can't take it yourself.

 

How about if Chris Avellone suddenly started acting like an ass and insulting people left and right?

 

Edit: Another well overlooked fact. FEZ wasn't Fish's idea. He got in the project after the original creator searched for a artist. Then the orginal creator left the project after.

Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[Brannart]

From the Article:

'Someone on Twitter told Jonathan Blow that you can just ignore these messages.

 

“This is false,” he replied. “We can't choose to ignore it. As soon as the words are read, they have already hit emotionally.”'

 

 

Boy does he have that right.  I keep telling myself things like do not feed the trolls, do not respond to youtube comments, and all that.

 

But man it is really hard because something is sure to get to you somehow and these are not even personal attacks on me.

[Malcador]

This forum has had a problem with abusive comments that led you to take it on yourself to post this ? Heh.

 

As for Fish, let him cry. But good laugh at mentioning 'victim blaming' for the douchebag throwing a tantrum over getting flak back.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Malcador

[Amentep]

As for the whole Phil Fish thing, I will just leave this here and you can judge for your selves.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPIcV6zsPw

Maybe its just me, but nothing Fish said in that video is any worse (or better) than what a lot of people here say about Japanese games (or say the RPG Codex which tends to take a fairly dim view of Japanese RPGs) all the time.

 

So is the problem that he said what he thought to someone asking a question at a con, or that he's not some random poster posting to a forum but a "developer" and therefore he shouldn't express negative feelings about others games?

[C2B]

So is the problem that he said what he thought to someone asking a question at a con, or that he's not some random poster posting to a forum but a "developer" and therefore he shouldn't express negative feelings about others games?

 

 

 

That someone is a fellow video game indie developer and japanese. *They suck* to his face isn't exactly not dickish. Just look at the other guy. There's a difference between a online forum and real-life.

 

Aside from these complaints applying to western games as well. (Which is funny that you mention the codex, because a comment there mentions that things like forced tutorial sections are common in modern western games too)

Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[Sarex]

Maybe its just me, but nothing Fish said in that video is any worse (or better) than what a lot of people here say about Japanese games (or say the RPG Codex which tends to take a fairly dim view of Japanese RPGs) all the time.

So is the problem that he said what he thought to someone asking a question at a con, or that he's not some random poster posting to a forum but a "developer" and therefore he shouldn't express negative feelings about others games?

 

 

If it was you there in the crowd, I think you would be singing a different tune now. That is no way to talk to anyone, least of all to a fan.

[Amentep]

 

So is the problem that he said what he thought to someone asking a question at a con, or that he's not some random poster posting to a forum but a "developer" and therefore he shouldn't express negative feelings about others games?

 

 

That someone is a fellow video game indie developer and japanese. *They suck* to his face isn't exactly not dickish. Just look at the other guy. There's a difference between a online forum and real-life.

 

Aside from these complaints applying to western games as well. (Which is funny that you mention the codex, because a comment there mentions that things like forced tutorial sections are common in modern western games too)

 

Would it have been better/worse if the guy wasn't an indie developer? Or if he wasn't Japanese?

 

Now, don't get me wrong I find Fish's comments to totally lack tact (which I feel is pretty common these days where people would rather keep things short and pithy rather than offer even handed but lengthy commentary), but if that's how he feels wouldn't he have been disingenuous to say otherwise?

 

My biggest problem with Fish's statements besides that it could have been handled better is he adds no context. Blow tries, but as the Codex has mention most of the problems he mentions - hand holding, showing players where to do what action - are in western games as well. Which is kind of the problem in talking about any segment of gaming as if its a monolithic entity.

 

So tactless, yes.

 

But that's my point, how is what he said any different from, a non-developer saying very similar tactless things? And does lacking tact warrant someone attacking you? To be clear while Fish could have handled things better, so could have Beer.

 

But it does also open up a much wider view of gaming culture and how people - particularly driven by anonymity - believe that its perfectly okay to insult other people (which seems to be the general thrust of this thread). We see it here from time to time and this is a fairly strongly moderated board.

 

 

 

Maybe its just me, but nothing Fish said in that video is any worse (or better) than what a lot of people here say about Japanese games (or say the RPG Codex which tends to take a fairly dim view of Japanese RPGs) all the time.

 

So is the problem that he said what he thought to someone asking a question at a con, or that he's not some random poster posting to a forum but a "developer" and therefore he shouldn't express negative feelings about others games?

If it was you there in the crowd, I think you would be singing a different tune now. That is no way to talk to anyone, least of all to a fan.

 

Maybe, I can't say with certainty how I'd react; until yesterday I'd never heard of Phil Fish, Fez or FezII.

 

That said, having been at conventions and panel discussions and occasionally asked questions, I also go into it accepting that when asking questions its very possible to ask questions about things that the other person hates. I'd rather them be honest than soft-ball the answer. But that's just me.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Amentep

[C2B]

 And does lacking tact warrant someone attacking you?

 

Nope.

 

What it does though, is if you insult people you also have to be prepared to take it yourself. Actions have consequences. Fish doesn't and in return acts like the victim. It's also not the only example of Fish using insults. He even does so casually, having no problem calling people cheap.

 

Two things regarding that

 

- I'm not defending Beer either (I don't like the guy any more than I do Fish. Probably even less.)

 

- Discussions on an internet portal are never the same as in real-life. Having someone say *You suck* to your face is a completly different situation. How would you like it, if I insulted your work, or anything that's important to you. Not in a discussion, but by throwing insults around directly in your face with maybe your friends around to listen. In many social situations this even ends physically.

 

 

I do think Fish will come back to games. Hopefully more grown up. Because in a work enviroment that attitude can hurt you badly.

Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[rjshae]

I suspect they're just busy actually building the game. 

[Amentep]

Nope.

 

What it does though, is if you insult people you also have to be prepared to take it yourself. Actions have consequences. Fish doesn't and in return acts like the victim. It's also not the only example of Fish using insults. He even does so casually, having no problem calling people cheap.

So he seems to be a tactless jerk. Doesn't mean you have to be a tactless jerk in return. There's definitely a "give as good as you get" philosophy in play on the internet.

 

 

- Discussions on an internet portal are never the same as in real-life.

I disagree with this. This is why people think they can post rape threats, death threats and other things to social media because they don't get that this communication is part of real-life.

 

And what people don't realize is that it spills over into communication face to face.

 

If BIGJGAMINGDUDE (who just happens to be a Japanese indie game developer) had asked a question on a message board about the influence of Japanese games on western indie gaming and FEZFAN3000 had replied (just happening to be a indie developer) that Japanese Video game sucked...

 

...well that kind of response is expected these days. I'm not saying its right - I bemoan this state of affairs. But I also acknowledge that a lot of people don't realize that being a jerk on the internet and being a jerk in real life aren't mutually exclusive or acceptable in one situation but not the other.

 

Which is kind of what I'm getting at, being tactless in real life or online is the same and doesn't warrant being attacked, threatened or insulted in kind. It also shouldn't be a free pass either; point out the tactless behavior but don't allow "well he's a jerk" to be a cause to dismiss someone else's actions.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Amentep

[C2B]

What I forgot to mention was that Fish is bipolar.

 

Which is why I also hope he uses the occasion to get himself some help.

[C2B]

 

Nope. What it does though, is if you insult people you also have to be prepared to take it yourself. Actions have consequences. Fish doesn't and in return acts like the victim. It's also not the only example of Fish using insults. He even does so casually, having no problem calling people cheap.

So he seems to be a tactless jerk. Doesn't mean you have to be a tactless jerk in return. There's definitely a "give as good as you get" philosophy in play on the internet.

- Discussions on an internet portal are never the same as in real-life.

I disagree with this. This is why people think they can post rape threats, death threats and other things to social media because they don't get that this communication is part of real-life.And what people don't realize is that it spills over into communication.If BIGJGAMINGDUDE (who just happens to be a Japanese indie game developer) had asked a question on a message board about the influence of Japanese games on western indie gaming and FEZFAN3000 had replied (just happening to be a indie developer) that Japanese Video game sucked......well that kind of response is expected these days. I'm not saying its right - I bemoan this state of affairs. But I also acknowledge that a lot of people don't being a jerk on the internet and being a jerk in real life aren't mutually exclusive.Which is kind of what I'm getting at, being tactless in real life or online is the same and doesn't warrant being It also shouldn't be a free pass either; point out the tactless behavior but don't allow "well he's a jerk" to be a cause to dismiss someone else's actions.

I disagree, but for that last part I didn't? In the same post I even mentioned I'm not defending Beer. that's not even remotely my point. My point is, if you're acting like a **** don't expect to not get the same in return. Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[Malcador]

So he seems to be a tactless jerk. Doesn't mean you have to be a tactless jerk in return. There's definitely a "give as good as you get" philosophy in play on the internet.

Nothing wrong with that idea, pretty much how real life works - insulting people constantly will probably get you that in return, no ?

 

Also, wow, the panel in that video is teeth-gratingly hispterish