More Mega-Dungeon Discussion.

[BruceVC]

1) I want fast travel portals on every floor so I don't have to hump up 15 levels to rest.

2) Epic loot and don't be shy dishing it out. Preferably including some item that allows travel from where I was, back to town, then back to where I was. Think D3's portal. This is a carryable item and is different from the static fast travel portals described above. Also should include some mysterious gizmo that allows healing without resting.

3) Megaboss on the last floor.

4) Maybe some puzzles but nothing I have to lookup the answer too.

5) A lever on the first floor that enables kill XP.

 

 

 

1) I want fast travel portals on every floor so I don't have to hump up 15 levels to rest.

2) Epic loot and don't be shy dishing it out. Preferably including some item that allows travel from where I was, back to town, then back to where I was. Think D3's portal. This is a carryable item and is different from the static fast travel portals described above. Also should include some mysterious gizmo that allows healing without resting.

3) Megaboss on the last floor.

4) Maybe some puzzles but nothing I have to lookup the answer too.

5) A lever on the first floor that enables kill XP.

 

1.) Please no. A Megadungeon should be a mega-dungeon, not a playground for loot-fanatics and XP-messies.

2.) Epic lot yes, but please don't give it away like candy. That destroys the value of finding something awesome, also it probably destroys any background the "loot" has. Also D3s portal NO, GOD, PLEASE NO! NO! NOOOOO!

3.) I can live with that.

4.) You don't have to look up anything, you have to simply think. It's been ages since I've had to solve any remotely interesting puzzle.

5.) NO. 

 

 

Sorry Gfted1 but I also disagree with almost all your suggestions. In fact I would say you are joking as you saying things in direct contradiction to what everyone else is suggesting  ( but it is funny  )

[JFSOCC]

1) I want fast travel portals on every floor so I don't have to hump up 15 levels to rest.

2) Epic loot and don't be shy dishing it out. Preferably including some item that allows travel from where I was, back to town, then back to where I was. Think D3's portal. This is a carryable item and is different from the static fast travel portals described above. Also should include some mysterious gizmo that allows healing without resting.

3) Megaboss on the last floor.

4) Maybe some puzzles but nothing I have to lookup the answer too.

5) A lever on the first floor that enables kill XP.

1, yes. I hate being stuck in a dreary place and I want to pop up for some fresh air once in a while

2. Yes on epic loot, no on dishing it out... except perhaps on the last few levels.

3. Could we do something else for a change? I can live with it, but Bosses have become a bit overdone imho.

4. yes, but not because it's too difficult, but rather because despite it being difficult, using your brain will get you the answer.

5. Haha, well, you know what. I feel everyonne should be free to screw up their own game. If there is a menu before you start your game where you can turn on "Mega dungeon kill xp" go for it. I don't need it.

[Gfted1]

In fact I would say you are joking as you saying things in direct contradiction to what everyone else is suggesting  ( but it is funny  )

I would never do such a thing! Good day SIR!

[5ir_Phobos]

I think you can get the best of all worlds: in some levels you can come and go but in others you are locked into hard-core survival / spelunking.

 

Definitely. for the huge mega multileveled dungeon with the 13 levels, I agree that dungeon should be hardcore and have some real challenge too it.  Maybe a couple entrances few exits. Some monster respawns like patrols and such.  Go all out and make that almost a raid dungeon and companions are encouraged to be recruited to help you clear it.  Stock up on pots and such.  Real challenge yields real rewards with recipes, items and rare spawns. 

 

For the normal dungeons I agree with others, some empty, some choked with monsters and mobs.  But give dungeons different dynamics.

Diablo II and III all had the same mechanic.  Monsters,  one entrance, one exit, and one rare monster per dungeon.

 

Eternity needs all kinds of dungeons to explore to add depth and curiosity. If i know that its full of monsters every time and I dont need XP i wont go in.

[Tuckey]

1) I think if portals are involved they shouldn't be a given but be there as a reward for smart players who have figured out a particularly tough puzzle ~ by the 5th level or something. Maybe 5 levels worth of clues/parts.

2) Yes to epic loot, but make it a challenge to acquire. There has to be a reason it hasn't been obtained already by some other adventurers.

3) Megaboss, I would be okay with this. I would expect a twist on this in true obsidian style.

4) I like tough puzzles as long as there is a clear and present means to solve it. Nothing quite like not knowing how to proceed puzzle wise.

5) Okay I'll pull the lever for xp, but I didn't realise the cost until later dum dum duhhhh!

 

Some amusing mega-dungeon tactics:

=============================

-For creatively clearly dungeon traps I heard one d&d player rounded up a herd of cattle and ran them through the dungeon. No more traps but the farmer wasn't happy.

-Some parties who rest spammed in an area found that their equipment was disappearing due to thieving goblins. Needless to say facing goblins attacking with your weapons and armour upped the challenge somewhat.

 

@Gfted1 what game is your avatar from?

 

[5ir_Phobos]

1) I want fast travel portals on every floor so I don't have to hump up 15 levels to rest.

2) Epic loot and don't be shy dishing it out. Preferably including some item that allows travel from where I was, back to town, then back to where I was. Think D3's portal. This is a carryable item and is different from the static fast travel portals described above. Also should include some mysterious gizmo that allows healing without resting.

3) Megaboss on the last floor.

4) Maybe some puzzles but nothing I have to lookup the answer too.

5) A lever on the first floor that enables kill XP.

 

1. Instead of fast travel, have a ladder leading to the top every couple of floors that you have to find.

2. Epic loot for bosses on certain levels, and at least 1 drop before the bottom level

3. Yes, of course

4. like maybe to last floor, but like a lever nothing fancy

5. that works, I understand that if you want to do it and not gain XP.

[BruceVC]

@ Motorizer

 

While I sympathize with your position; I too would love to try and take on the whole dungeon in one shot, I don't see how Obsidian can allow a straight run without either completely screwing up game balance or watering down the experience (both in terms on xp points and exploration).  

 

One question for you is would you be okay with choke points ( a trap or a puzzle) that were only passable with items that had to be sought out in the outside world?  This might mean that the party would have to leave the dungeon in order to find the object or research the puzzle (maybe it's in a dead language).  Or possibly there is a type of energy trap that teleports you out of the dungeon, so to get past the trap, yocu have to find an expert in that type of energy or soul magic who is only available by freeing him or her from a prison that is also part of the main quest.

 

I ask because, I'm curious how Obsidian is going to make the dungeon plot-involved and how they plan to break it up so that people who want to do it in one pass can enjoy it that way.

 

Of course, the easiest way to implement this is to make the entire dungeon part of the end-game with levels that can be entirely or mostly skipped, (as I pointed out in the post I made about the dungeon having branching levels in vertical section), but I'm not sure that is the way Obsidian will approach the problem.

 

You have raised some good points, I like the idea of the mega dungeon being the source of several quests that start outside it. For example you meet a group of gnomes living in caves who want you to retrieve an important ancestral artefact for them. The artefact is kept on level 8 of the Dungeon in a sealed off area that requires a key that they only give you if you agree to the quest. This concept has loads of potential

[cyberarmy]

Kraken or GTFO.

There you go,

 

[Gfted1]

@Gfted1 what game is your avatar from?

None that Im aware of. I found it on the internet back in 2004 and have never changed it.

[Sarex]

Tbh, I want the Watchers Keep 2.0.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Sarex

[curryinahurry]

You have raised some good points, I like the idea of the mega dungeon being the source of several quests that start outside it. For example you meet a group of gnomes living in caves who want you to retrieve an important ancestral artefact for them. The artefact is kept on level 8 of the Dungeon in a sealed off area that requires a key that they only give you if you agree to the quest. This concept has loads of potential

 

 

 

 

I would hope that this is is something that can work both ways.  The reason I brought up the points with what Motorizer wrote was actually to give the party a reason to leave the dungeon.  I am expecting Obsidian to give us reasons to explore the Old Paths, and as you stated, the more the better.  I think that if Obsidian provides roadblocks to progress that are narrative driven in such a manner to make us leave the dungeon and the return with the correct solution to the problem of moving forward, it works better than a simple impassable lock or portal to elsewhere type solution.  

 

The funny thing about the 15 level dungeon, is that we know how many levels down we need to go to reach the end.  If that wasn't the case, then leaving and coming back with some new information that extended the dungeon (like there is a path down behind a particular statue if you have a particular rune stone) would be less of an issue.  Of course this could be handled with a "fake bottom" of sorts; you go down 15 levels and beat the big bad only to fine out that this was only a portion of the total dungeon and there is an entirely different area that is accessible from the 8th level that takes you to the real mega boss.

[BruceVC]

 

You have raised some good points, I like the idea of the mega dungeon being the source of several quests that start outside it. For example you meet a group of gnomes living in caves who want you to retrieve an important ancestral artefact for them. The artefact is kept on level 8 of the Dungeon in a sealed off area that requires a key that they only give you if you agree to the quest. This concept has loads of potential

 

 

 

 

I would hope that this is is something that can work both ways.  The reason I brought up the points with what Motorizer wrote was actually to give the party a reason to leave the dungeon.  I am expecting Obsidian to give us reasons to explore the Old Paths, and as you stated, the more the better.  I think that if Obsidian provides roadblocks to progress that are narrative driven in such a manner to make us leave the dungeon and the return with the correct solution to the problem of moving forward, it works better than a simple impassable lock or portal to elsewhere type solution.  

 

The funny thing about the 15 level dungeon, is that we know how many levels down we need to go to reach the end.  If that wasn't the case, then leaving and coming back with some new information that extended the dungeon (like there is a path down behind a particular statue if you have a particular rune stone) would be less of an issue.  Of course this could be handled with a "fake bottom" of sorts; you go down 15 levels and beat the big bad only to fine out that this was only a portion of the total dungeon and there is an entirely different area that is accessible from the 8th level that takes you to the real mega boss.

 

 

Yeah leaving  the dungeon to complete a quest would also work, I like it

[Monte Carlo]

Tbh, I want the Watchers Keep 2.0.

 

Yes and no, but I see where you are coming from. I want Dragon's Eye from IWD with a healthy dash of Durlag's tower with some WK sprinkles.

[okkoko]

well i just hope that this mega dungeon will be my home from away home

[rjshae]

A world with cannon that can knock down castle walls and magic that can excavate earth and rock provides a reasonable motive for building underground structures. Perhaps earthen excavation is one of the primary economies of wizardly magic? Those who can shape and harden rock, or can summon earth moving brutes, may be much sought after by the wealthy and powerful.

[JFSOCC]

A world with cannon that can knock down castle walls and magic that can excavate earth and rock provides a reasonable motive for building underground structures. Perhaps earthen excavation is one of the primary economies of wizardly magic? Those who can shape and harden rock, or can summon earth moving brutes, may be much sought after by the wealthy and powerful.

it's all about this magical stuff called unobtanium, found deep in the earth's crust, or occasionally under oversized trees.

[rjshae]

 

A world with cannon that can knock down castle walls and magic that can excavate earth and rock provides a reasonable motive for building underground structures. Perhaps earthen excavation is one of the primary economies of wizardly magic? Those who can shape and harden rock, or can summon earth moving brutes, may be much sought after by the wealthy and powerful.

it's all about this magical stuff called unobtanium, found deep in the earth's crust, or occasionally under oversized trees.

Yes, that could be another motivator. It was called Lyrium in the Dragon Age series, which had some interesting properties and effects.

[Lephys]

Except Lyrium, in DA, actually played a part in the lore, beyond "It was worth a lot of money and its name fibbed a lot." Lyrium was tied to magical functionality, as well as The Fade.

 

But, they are both pretty similar,

[ultimis]

They could make the Mega-Dungeon a money sink. Such as much of the dungeon is inaccessible without paying for a group of miners/engineers to clear the way or dig new holes. Something similar to the haunted mansion in Chrono Trigger. This would limit early game exploitation of the dungeon, while still allowing those who want to do it all in one go to just do it when they have the money.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Durlag's Tower was pretty fantastic, but Watcher's Keep, not so much.

 

First of all, I hope Obsidian skip the dungeon format that they use for the Kickstarter dungeon level advancement graphics.

I don't want some towerlike structure boring its way down to one megaboss, and I especially not with a lootfest along the way.

Nor do I want some dug-out pointed mountain, Grimrock-style.

 

Instead, I'd like to see much more of caverns and underworlds with an ecology that makes sense (at least for a fantasy setting), and the same goes for communities for creatures down there. The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth did that pretty well. They need culture, history and a reasonable sociology, instead of being cannon fodder for my party (like in an arcade game or in the latest Diablo). Also, there should be many wrong turns to be taken, and plenty of mazes and dead-ends. Think of the dungeons in FF-books! Those books also had great stories for those few intelligent, but often mad, individuals that had made those dank places their home or seat of power or horrific lab... You get the picture. So, several worthy opponents would be the best. Not just waves upon waves of critters and then a dragon.

 

And I'd love to see some sense of hopeless endeavour to it all, a bit like Dante's Inferno; "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." I don't want a single loophole getting back, well perhaps one, a well-hidden one, but no more than that. And backtracking is more than fine, it's the norm, as you will be lost. Repopulation should happen at times, and the inhabitants of caverns and dungeons will be different. Going down the dungeon should be a huge risk for the party, and getting back should turn into a dim hope, and efforts of doing so should be futile. Rather, the party will have to adapt to an underworld life and try to survive in their new abode by any means. Obviously, there should be places where the party gets a chance to recuperate and stock up a bit, but going back to the surface should be feeling like a distant dream after a while. Several party members should refer to and regret the decision to enter the mega dungeon, some maybe even whine and nag about it incessantly. At odds with this, there will be one or two companions that like or even love this new netherworld, where they really get to shine - a subterranean rogue character, for instance, with a special interest in ancient cultures and precious minerals. Oh, did I mention that undead are likely to abound in such forlorn milieus?

[tajerio]

And I'd love to see some sense of hopeless endeavour to it all, a bit like Dante's Inferno; "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." I don't want a single loophole getting back, well perhaps one, a well-hidden one, but no more than that. And backtracking is more than fine, it's the norm, as you will be lost. Repopulation should happen at times, and the inhabitants of caverns and dungeons will be different. Going down the dungeon should be a huge risk for the party, and getting back should turn into a dim hope, and efforts of doing so should be futile. Rather, the party will have to adapt to an underworld life and try to survive in their new abode by any means. Obviously, there should be places where the party gets a chance to recuperate and stock up a bit, but going back to the surface should be feeling like a distant dream after a while. Several party members should refer to and regret the decision to enter the mega dungeon, some maybe even whine and nag about it incessantly. At odds with this, there will be one or two companions that like or even love this new netherworld, where they really get to shine - a subterranean rogue character, for instance, with a special interest in ancient cultures and precious minerals. Oh, did I mention that undead are likely to abound in such forlorn milieus?

 

It would be pretty tough to give the party a good motivation for going down the dungeon, though, if they didn't think they had a reasonable chance of making it back.  That level of necessity would almost demand that the dungeon be tied into the main storyline.

[Chrononaut]

Hopefully it has a puzzle or two, and it isn't too much of a straight dungeon crawl. Perhaps some trapped chests that can be disarmed before opening, traps that let monsters etc out of hidden areas if you trigger the trap, give the Rogue something to do outside combat. Also the fountain things in Wizardry 6 would be a good idea, ie you find a fountain you can select a party member to drink from it, the water either can do something bad (like poison) or have a good effect.

[Stun]

Maybe 5 levels can be accessed in one location, while another 5 levels require some sort of portal stone, which you can only acquire some point later in the game. etc

 

At least that way there is pacing so the dungeon won't drag.

I agree with the reasoning behind this, but I'm against any sort of thinly veiled "limiting" or "corralling" of this mega dungeon experience, be it for "balance" purposes or story.

 

IMO, The best way to prevent low level characters from doing the entire dungeon all in one go straight after the prologue is to do it *naturally*. Let them try, then fail, with great amounts of pain. At say, dungeon level 5, place a boss-level opponent that a low level party simply cannot beat, or a deadly trap they do not have the skills to disarm, or hell, make the door to level 6 require a lock picking skill check that is a bit too high for a low level rogue to reach.

 

In other words, Let the player figure out for himself, the hard way, that he's probably not ready for the rest of the dungeon and that he should come back later, after he's experienced more of the world. But to ruin the immersion/plot flow in such a hamfisted manner by flat out telling the player that he cannot go further down until "chapter 3", or until he completes part X of the main plot is just.... bluh.

 

 

 

Edit: And on a semi-related note, I have a serious request to Obsidian Devs. Can you please, pretty please, make this dungeon self contained? By self contained I mean, don't overly intertwine it with the main plot or the greater politics of the world. I don't want to have to search this dungeon for a plot item that I need for the main quest, nor do I want to have to leave the dungeon, and go to another part of the world to grab a plot item required to advance further down in the dungeon.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Stun

[Tuckey]

@Stun I think your suggestion of a high level lock or monster is probably better for the player than mine. I can see searching for a portal stone causing frustration for the player now that I think about it some more.

[Malekith]

Clearing Watcher's Keep straight out of Irenicus dungeon is one of the most satisfying ways to play it. I hope Obsidian just makes the dificulty imposible for a low level party instead of artificialy blocking progress, unles there is a strong story reason to do so