Non-romance dynamics in games

[Walsingham]

Caught this games blog just now. Raises some -admittedly sleepy - questions about why some successful games use a father-daughter relationship to 'activate' engagement with the characters, and why they seem to work better than romantic ones. Also if there is a dynamic caused by more gamers being female than ever.

 

 

Personally I think they work in the abstract Bioshock sense (as she says), but Fallout 3's dad was one of the least compelling ones I ever encountered. I hated that guy for being a weird freak, and trying to run my life.

 

Which now I think about it is quite realistic.

 

[BruceVC]

Nah, nothing beats Isabela in her pirate boots. That's REAL relationship dynamics

[Tale]

Father/daughter dynamic seems to be popular recently. Nier/Walking Dead/Last of Us, okay that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head.

 

It's probably some combination of the developers getting older and coming into their own families, but also the audience doing the same.

[Orogun01]

I don't have a daughter so if you put a 3d model in front of me and tell me it's my daughter, well then I'll see you in court bitch!

Seriously though, unless they are willing to put massive cutscenes where they establish that relationship (all through which I will be wondering when do I get to the gameplay) I probably won't find it believable. It will kind of be like the kids from Inception where I'm told by the protagonist that they are his main motivation but I spend the rest of my live wondering if they where real.

[Tale]

I don't have a daughter so if you put a 3d model in front of me and tell me it's my daughter, well then I'll see you in court bitch!

 

Seriously though, unless they are willing to put massive cutscenes where they establish that relationship (all through which I will be wondering when do I get to the gameplay) I probably won't find it believable. It will kind of be like the kids from Inception where I'm told by the protagonist that they are his main motivation but I spend the rest of my live wondering if they where real.

Two of the three games I mentioned have it as adopted daughters, with the majority of the development being on establishing that relationship.

[Walsingham]

Father/daughter dynamic seems to be popular recently. Nier/Walking Dead/Last of Us, okay that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head.

 

It's probably some combination of the developers getting older and coming into their own families, but also the audience doing the same.

 

I see what you mean. That the devs are chaps with families.

 

I'd really like to know what 'our' devs think about this.

[melkathi]

 

 

I'd really like to know what 'our' devs think about this.

 

 

 

With the baby keeping them up and the oldest just gotten to the age were she finds boys interesting? I doubt they have the time and unfrayed nerves to think about anything

[HoonDing]

There was some zombie stealth game with a mother-daughter relationship. Forgot the name.

[Amentep]

Father/daughter dynamic seems to be popular recently. Nier/Walking Dead/Last of Us, okay that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head.

 

It's probably some combination of the developers getting older and coming into their own families, but also the audience doing the same.

Aren't there earlier games with father / daughter relationships? (Nier is 3 years old, but would something like Silent Hill count?)

[Tale]

 

Father/daughter dynamic seems to be popular recently. Nier/Walking Dead/Last of Us, okay that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head.

 

It's probably some combination of the developers getting older and coming into their own families, but also the audience doing the same.

 

I see what you mean. That the devs are chaps with families.

 

I'd really like to know what 'our' devs think about this.

 

On some level it makes sense. (in the way that ideas look good on paper) I think we need, and can expect, to see more of this.

 

The average age of gamers is supposedly somewhere around 30. This puts them at late teens/early twenties to play Baldur's Gate II, the game that really kicked off RPG romance. But also at the right age to play games like Lunar and Final Fantasy VIIat the peak. And now they're the same people raising children.

 

I expect in about another decade we're going to see the mid-life crisis as a topic in videogames.

 

Aren't there earlier games with father / daughter relationships? (Nier is 3 years old, but would something like Silent Hill count?)

I'm sure there are. I'm not trying to paint the now as if it's a revolution. But I suspect there's a bigger audience for it than ever before.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Father/daughter dynamic seems to be popular recently. Nier/Walking Dead/Last of Us, okay that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head.

 

It's probably some combination of the developers getting older and coming into their own families, but also the audience doing the same.

 

I see what you mean. That the devs are chaps with families.

 

I'd really like to know what 'our' devs think about this.

 

On some level it makes sense. (in the way that ideas look good on paper) I think we need, and can expect, to see more of this.

 

The average age of gamers is supposedly somewhere around 30. This puts them at late teens/early twenties to play Baldur's Gate II, the game that really kicked off RPG romance. But also at the right age to play games like Lunar and Final Fantasy VIIat the peak. And now they're the same people raising children.

 

I expect in about another decade we're going to see the mid-life crisis as a topic in videogames.

 

Aren't there earlier games with father / daughter relationships? (Nier is 3 years old, but would something like Silent Hill count?)

I'm sure there are. I'm not trying to paint the now as if it's a revolution. But I suspect there's a bigger audience for it than ever before.

 

 

Nah, I doubt the Father\Daughter relationship is anything more than an experiment that would only work in Zombie apocalypse games. You don't get anything more dramatic and tear-jerking than that type of dynamic (well maybe boy and dog relationships like Old Yeller  ) . Its all about making an impact and appealing to a certain emotion that resonates with most people. Its no different to normal Romance we see in Bioware games. I know you aren't suggesting this but don't expect a paradigm shift in the way relationships are portrayed in RPG or games generally. The "normal" Romance is what most people expect and want

[HoonDing]

I remember now, aforementioned game is AMY

[Drowsy Emperor]

This just brings back memories of rampant daddy issues in Mass  Effect 2. A galaxy far far away, filled with american teenagers.

 

WHY BIO WHY

Edited July 10, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Walsingham]

Nah, I doubt the Father\Daughter relationship is anything more than an experiment that would only work in Zombie apocalypse games. You don't get anything more dramatic and tear-jerking than that type of dynamic (well maybe boy and dog relationships like Old Yeller  ) . Its all about making an impact and appealing to a certain emotion that resonates with most people. Its no different to normal Romance we see in Bioware games. I know you aren't suggesting this but don't expect a paradigm shift in the way relationships are portrayed in RPG or games generally. The "normal" Romance is what most people expect and want

 

 

I don't know, man. The point is to get you to engage with the primary character, right? the writers are using a relationship to make that come alive.

 

The only way romance would be the only option is if romance was the only emotional relationship going, and it isn't. If my mates who studied medieval history are to be believed, romance isn't even a natural emotion. It's a made up emotion invented by shifty lute-players.

 

If you watch the vlog post I linked in the OP you'd see she suggests that another reason romance won't always work is that romance is very personal. We all dig on different things. I like brains and courage, and... well anyway. You get the idea. But good parental traits are pretty stable. You can watch a Zulu mom and child and go 'aw...' just as easily as a Scottish mom and child.

[Agiel]

 

 

Father/daughter dynamic seems to be popular recently. Nier/Walking Dead/Last of Us, okay that's all that comes to mind off the top of my head.

 

It's probably some combination of the developers getting older and coming into their own families, but also the audience doing the same.

 

I see what you mean. That the devs are chaps with families.

 

I'd really like to know what 'our' devs think about this.

 

On some level it makes sense. (in the way that ideas look good on paper) I think we need, and can expect, to see more of this.

 

The average age of gamers is supposedly somewhere around 30. This puts them at late teens/early twenties to play Baldur's Gate II, the game that really kicked off RPG romance. But also at the right age to play games like Lunar and Final Fantasy VIIat the peak. And now they're the same people raising children.

 

I expect in about another decade we're going to see the mid-life crisis as a topic in videogames.

 

Aren't there earlier games with father / daughter relationships? (Nier is 3 years old, but would something like Silent Hill count?)

I'm sure there are. I'm not trying to paint the now as if it's a revolution. But I suspect there's a bigger audience for it than ever before.

 

 

We saw shades of middle-age being a factor in a character like Sam Fisher in Chaos Theory (The much younger techies in Third Echelon kept joking around with him because of his age, and his boss had started looking for his eventual replacement), though Sam Fisher did have a daughter which became a motivation in the following two games. Sadly, this aspect of his character seems to have been forgotten in the latest Splinter Cell.

[Orogun01]

Developers seem to be missing the point of games being an interactive experience, if the child its just there to be an emotion causing ornament then it may as well be part of the background. On of the most basic companionship I've seen done in a game was in Shadow of the Colossus between Agro and the Wanderer. They are bound together on the same quest facing the towering Colossi, Agro proving to be indispensable in defeating some of them.  (Shadow of the Colossus spoilers ahead) So when Agro fell down to the ravine I felt that loss because of all of what I had been through.
Characters that are framing references for the hero are disposable and often forgot after they protagonist has been established, but companions bring their worth and value the hero's journey often engaging on a journey of their own.

Basically, if it bring nothing of value to the story then it has no value.

[Hurlshort]

Wals, I kind of hate you for making me watch that video blog.   

 

But yeah, I think it's an obvious sign that many game developers are now in their 30's and 40's and struggling with parenthood, where in the previous two decades they were mostly in their 20's.

 

Also I hope I don't die when my daughter is 15 because that might cause her to go get terrible tattoos that distract from her natural beauty.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Hurlshot

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Wals, I kind of hate you for making me watch that video blog.   

 

But yeah, I think it's an obvious sign that many game developers are now in their 30's and 40's and struggling with parenthood, where in the previous two decades they were mostly in their 20's.

 

Also I hope I don't die when my daughter is 15 because that might cause her to go get terrible tattoos that distract from her natural beauty.

While I don't mind a woman with tattoos, those do not look very good.

[Maria Caliban]

If you watch the vlog post I linked in the OP you'd see she suggests that another reason romance won't always work is that romance is very personal. We all dig on different things. I like brains and courage, and... well anyway. You get the idea. But good parental traits are pretty stable. You can watch a Zulu mom and child and go 'aw...' just as easily as a Scottish mom and child.

You care about something in a story because you've come to identify with or like the main character and it's meaningful to them. WALL-E made me care for a ****roach, creatures that illicit disgust from me in the real world.

 

If game writers and cinematic types can’t get me to buy into a romantic relationship, that’s just lack of skill on their part.

[BruceVC]

 

Wals, I kind of hate you for making me watch that video blog.   

 

But yeah, I think it's an obvious sign that many game developers are now in their 30's and 40's and struggling with parenthood, where in the previous two decades they were mostly in their 20's.

 

Also I hope I don't die when my daughter is 15 because that might cause her to go get terrible tattoos that distract from her natural beauty.

While I don't mind a woman with tattoos, those do not look very good.

 

 

She is really pretty and clearly someone intelligent which is generally a must for me when I meet ladies when I am sober but those tattoos also don't do it for me at all.

 

And as Hurlshot said it does detract from her natural beauty

[AGX-17]

I remember now, aforementioned game is AMY

The difference being that Amy was terrible, even without being compared to The Last of Us.

[Monte Carlo]

I am father to a marvellous son. I enjoy an excellent relationship with him and love him dearly.

 

This is why, in games, I couldn't give a toss about excellent relationships and want to drive tiger tanks, slay dragons, enslave nations with necromancy and lead mighty armies across continents.

 

Next.

[BruceVC]

 

Nah, I doubt the Father\Daughter relationship is anything more than an experiment that would only work in Zombie apocalypse games. You don't get anything more dramatic and tear-jerking than that type of dynamic (well maybe boy and dog relationships like Old Yeller  ) . Its all about making an impact and appealing to a certain emotion that resonates with most people. Its no different to normal Romance we see in Bioware games. I know you aren't suggesting this but don't expect a paradigm shift in the way relationships are portrayed in RPG or games generally. The "normal" Romance is what most people expect and want

 

 

 

 

If you watch the vlog post I linked in the OP you'd see she suggests that another reason romance won't always work is that romance is very personal. We all dig on different things. I like brains and courage, and... well anyway. You get the idea. But good parental traits are pretty stable. You can watch a Zulu mom and child and go 'aw...' just as easily as a Scottish mom and child.

 

 

I hear you but that's what I am sort of saying and its also what the lady in the video is suggesting. The father\daughter relationship does resonate with almost  everyone on some level. Its easier to implement on some games than Romance, but it will only work in some games.

 

I also don't buy the view that we are seeing a resurgence in this type of dynamic because the developers are in the 30's and 40's as this is something that they can identify with as they have families. The decision to include Relationships is not up to the developers but rather the Game Producer and the company that ultimately owns the IP. They will make a game and include features that will ensure the game sells the most copies and is popular with fans.

 

It's like saying Todd Howard from Bethesda who is married with kids should have included the whole Father\Daughter dynamic in Skyrim but instead you got these arguably silly marriage options which was what  most people preferred and made sense in the game setting

 

I am not saying that father\daughter doesn't have a place but it won't replace standard Romance as its not the best option for what people want who do care about these things

Edited July 11, 2013 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

I am father to a marvellous son. I enjoy an excellent relationship with him and love him dearly.

 

This is why, in games, I couldn't give a toss about excellent relationships and want to drive tiger tanks, slay dragons, enslave nations with necromancy and lead mighty armies across continents.

 

Next.

 

Monte I find myself agreeing with you 100%...is something wrong with me? 

[Monte Carlo]

No, by  process of osmosis, you are absorbing some of my wisdom, padawan.