Solving The Rest Problem: Limited resting, or respawning enemies?

[Amentep]

 

 

I wonder how they will indicate in game when you are in a rest spot. Perhaps a conveniently placed campfire along the path? A flashy thing on your map?

I wonder this as well. I'd have to assume you'll have regions of relative "safety" (more rest zones than spots) with smaller areas of... "unrest," (I couldn't resist), and other regions of relative danger (or otherwise-preventing-extended-rest factors) in which the majority of the area will not allow resting, and only small spots will allow it.

 

I highly doubt it'll be just little dots throughout the entirety of the traversable map. I am anticipating more official info on this, in general, though.

 

I figure there will have to be some kind of visual indication. Were already being forced to go to specific areas just to rest, I cant imagine the design would also force us to press the rest button every 10 feet until we get lucky and find the sweet spot.

 

I imagine it'll be on the map, but they could also do it by having it be a "vacant" camp site already visually or have floating test when you hit the area "this looks like a good area to rest if you want to".

[Micamo]

I imagine it'll be on the map, but they could also do it by having it be a "vacant" camp site already visually or have floating test when you hit the area "this looks like a good area to rest if you want to".

Here's an idea: When you encounter a campsite there's a random chance that there's another adventuring party already there, using it.

 

"Piss off, this is our spot! For some reason, it's the only place where you can sleep for hundreds of miles! Our wizard needs to get her spell slots back too, you know."

 

You have to stand there and wait for them to finish, or you can just straight-up murder them and take their campsite.

[Lephys]

I figure there will have to be some kind of visual indication. Were already being forced to go to specific areas just to rest, I cant imagine the design would also force us to press the rest button every 10 feet until we get lucky and find the sweet spot.

Definitely. That's the thing with these kind of changes. The natural (and understandable) tendency is to try to imagine the first-hand experience of a game with these changes, but all we have to immediately call to mind are games that were not built around such design decisions.

 

I think a lot of the "oh no, this is going to be a problem!" alarm regarding things P:E is doing differently from past games stems at least partially from that disconnect. The first thing people think of is BG2 with no combat XP, or BG2 with suddenly extremely limited rest spots.

 

But, the reason I'm so optimistic about such changes is that, P:E isn't limited to being BG2. Obviously, they COULD screw it up with the rest of the game's design not really supporting (or being supported by) a particular design decision very well, but, as you've expressed regarding Obsidian most likely having intuitive indication of where the player can rest and where he cannot, I doubt they're not ferociously considering the potential problems these design decisions could cause and simply designing the rest of the game so that they are never really problems to begin with, much less things to be "fixed" after the fact.

 

*shrug*. Maybe I'm just a crazy optimist, heh.

 

Here's an idea: When you encounter a campsite there's a random chance that there's another adventuring party already there, using it.

 

"Piss off, this is our spot! For some reason, it's the only place where you can sleep for hundreds of miles! Our wizard needs to get her spell slots back too, you know."

 

You have to stand there and wait for them to finish, or you can just straight-up murder them and take their campsite.

Hahaha! No way! Full-contact Rock-Paper-Scissors shall determine the victor! 8D

Edited June 13, 2013 by Lephys

[LadyCrimson]

Can one of the mods move this thread to the Game Mechanics forum? Thanks.

Sure.

[ushas]

Hi,

a nice discussion:)
So we are going to have a rest mechanic in the game (what about a resting-event image? and a wait mechanism?).

 

Players will always complain, if it's too limited/forced/boring... Maybe we look at it for the most part as some mechanical construct, as an obstacle to make the game more challenging and a little more realistic. But it is part of the story too (what about party members' feelings?). Just for fun, an example follows. I haven't thought it through, mainly it's inspired by others (sorry for no citing, there are a lots of interesting posts in both threads). And as a not native speaker, I really apologize for wall of mess...

 

------------------------------------------------------
So let's assume we have a limit -- one rest per 24h (or other limit with diff. mechanism or a story tool*). In addition, if implemented in game, during each rest or a specific period of time, the party will consume specific amount of resources -- water + food + healing stuff; And if possible, refill the resources -- resting/travel near water sources, buying, hunting, picking and stealing possibilities (could be tied to some skills, and made partly automatic or so).

If possible I would let players try to rest everywhere -- but with that consequences and some story outcomes -- with interesting events happen (why not some minor scripted-events on the rest image?) and with possible changes in the time-sensitive stories/areas/relationships (events not always have to be triggered, or no means to be almost completely random; and I don't see reason to use only those which will act as some sort of punishments/restrictions).  In case of quests and stories and party members --  it could be an addition to the story/personality depth/logic and an alternative to resolve some issues (and I can imagine some nice easter eggs:)). In other words I wouldn't fight against an idea to make it fully integrated part of the story and the world itself. However, lets it be as much as possible an optional part of the game (players decide within limits when a and where to sleep).

For simplicity, areas could be divided into several types (eg. your home, inns and NPC houses, streets, main roads, more dangerous areas)**. Events would be triggered/resolved by your decision to rest there (eg. in the neighborhood of something; resting screen as a scripted-event image?). Skills of party members may play a role. And the party composition itself (all cotravellers) is important...

However, it all depends whether we have flow of time and possibly night/day distinction; and everything really depends on the developers:). In the end, if we have limited number of places where it's possible to sleep, then from the story perspective, it gives developers a lot more power to make the resting mechanism something, which is even more story/background/quests-related.  

And for our parties during resting -- well, when it's natural to get to know each other, discuss main events/quests and what to do next? ...or just share stories (eg. lore and exchange the past adventures before the joining), witness relationships evolvement, hints of secrets etc.?...  When implemented well, the resting mechanism could be used to add more life to the party and be a natural addition to the story depth. So just before sleeping, you may want to decide to speak with others (in case you haven't done it yet during a day or there are more possibilities)...
-- choose what to do before rest in the dialog-like menu on the resting screen/image? (some possibilities mentioned above)
-- and/or as the story teller the game may just tell you on this screen whats going on (and what was the outcome), eg. what you see/hear/feel/taste/sence/smell; and eventually that you told others something (if you wanted to) and how they react...
-- could be connected with the diary?
-- generally I can imagine some skills-based events.
-- more realistically, party members want to contribute to the decisions having something to do with the resting (may ask you to rest or not to rest, want to establish a watch etc.)...
-----------------------------------------

So the point is -- and of course it's just subjective opinion -- if given more story-like reasons (~sensitive events + visually and by telling highlited areas, "looks like a good place to rest", getting some interesting details/info during the rest event itself etc.) -- players would be more willing to submit to the established resting spacetime rules (hard and/or soft limits) without too much outer force pressure feelings...

Personaly, during the Quest for Glory II, every evening I have found myself back at the inn to eat and sleep just because of the possibility to share the midnight tea with Shameen and Shema and to exchange short stories (and see the dance:))

 

u

[ushas]

PS Ad*:

Except other physically limiting resources (eg. amount of food and the weight limit), I find the injures/fatigue mechanism as proposed by others beeing elegant ideas. If implemented to the both extremes (eg. so we feel fatigue too if we rest too much -- doesn't have party of spoilt lazy brats a bad morale and low stamina? ), we can eventually get rid of artifical hard limits like the one rest per 24h (or limit to initiate a rest only during night hours; or one rest per dungeon etc.). I can imagine fatigue (together with the management of the food resources) as a part of the difficulty settings (or it could be one of the difficulty switches).

--------------------------------
Just an example (let's assume that players generally want to rest):

 

On higher difficulty settings:
(type/quality of the area may contribute to the values and possibility to rest)

    (a) not having rest:

         -- after 48h fatigue factor will rise to something like f~50%, party members complaining;

         -- after 72h f~75% + casually story driven hallucinations? (microsleep, let sleep depraved heroes experience something special;)),

         -- after 96h may fall unconscious, so in the end, game force you to rest, or party members may force you earlier; (yes I know people can endure even 11 days: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-long-can-humans-stay)

    (b) too much rest:

        -- if 2x in 24h -> f~30% (but eventually prior injuries may lower factor); party members complaining (about both extremes); you or other companions can have nightmares (=not effective sleep); if to some extend logical having a higher probability of weather & ambush events etc...;

 

On normal settings (a lower sleep deprivation):
   (a) no rest: 48h f~20% and 72h f~40% etc.;
   (b) too much rest: 2x in 24h f~15%...
 
On easy settings: ...do not use the fatigue factor (f==0%)

--------------------------

 

u

[Lephys]

Well, to start simply... what if you just couldn't FULLY recouperate in a non-rest area? You know, you're trotting along through a dungeon/dangerous area, and you can only take brief "emergency rests." Maybe only when you're at-or-below 10% health and/or 10% of your per-rest ability "ammo." *shrug*. I'd hafta do some more thinking on the specifics of that (the general idea is, what's most likely is probably that the last combat encounter got you pretty close to death, but not quite there. I doubt if the last encounter took you down to 40%, you're going to be incapable of getting through the next one. (Keep in mind, here, that Health is the thing that's supposed to last you the duration of travel between rest areas, by the game's own design and balancing, and that Stamina is meant simply to last through one bout of combat at a time).

 

Here's the point: The problem with no resting except at certain locations? "What if I get really close to death and am pretty far from both locations (the one ahead AND the one behind)?" Am I right? Well, you could "emergency rest" (only when in dire need, so as to keep it from being "Oh no, I need a bandaid for this cut and I used 1 spell! *rest* YAY! Back up to full! ^_^" every 10 seconds) and regain something like 25% of your Health, and a handful of per-rest uses of abilities/spells (or maybe even none, since you'd still have your per-encounter AND infinite-ammo abilities/spells at your disposal). So, further combat encounters can still be quite tough, since you can't just comfortably get back up to full, and get rid of all persistent status ailments, etc. which you CAN do by going to a rest-location and having a proper camp/rest and take the time to gather water, food, and herbs and such and treat wounds, etc (automatic stuff, for the most part, when you rest. It's just understood that that's WHY resting recouperates you so well).

 

Would something along those lines be pretty nice? I mean, I still say that if you're playing on the appropriate difficulty setting for your cRPG tactical combat skill level, and the game's even remotely balanced well, you shouldn't have to use emergency rests very often. Maybe we'd see more use of them in harder difficulties where people are really ramping up the challenge against themselves. Of course, in those difficulties, they might even be less useful. But, people intentionally playing on "You're Going To Beg For Mercy" difficulty probably aren't going to be complaining about the challenge of making it between rest points without dying. *Shrug*

 

Thoughts? (totally change whatever you want about the whole "emergency rest" notion. All the numbers and such were just example stuff for the general idea of what it could accomplish.)

[radioactivelullaby]

i don't know if this has been mentioned before, but how fast will the characters regenerate stamina? fast enough to fully recuperate between encounters? will it make poison and similar effects useless? or will poison tap directly from health? is the "natural" regeneration perhaps only present between encounters? and is it governed by an attribute?

[TrashMan]

People who complain about limitatiosn are crappy rolepalyers (IMHO).

 

You should be able to rest everyhwere? Technicly, yes. Jsut like you should be abel to kill everyone and place their corpses in hillarious sexual positions..like players often do in Skyrim. Or just like you could strip a NPC of his clothes and send him packing in his birthday suit to attack a dragon alone.

 

Neither of those actions make sense. Seems to me that players forget that from a perspective of a living, breathing person in the setting, the PC is a grade A lunatic.

 

So let the player dowhatever he wants - BUT. Give him realistic consequences. Have your party hate you or try to murder you in your sleep if you are constantly, needlesly brining them into danger or do stupid stuff.

 

PC: "lost 10 HP. Let's Sleep here."

Party NPC: "Here? You got to be kidding! It's not safe. We haven't cleared any of the tunnels, there could be goblins and all kinds of nasties everywhere."

Party NPC2: "yeah. And we've been only exploring for an hour. Nobody is tired yet. We could stop for a few minutes tough."

PC: "No, we sleep. Now."

Party NPC: "I can't sleep on command.... Look, if you're that sleepy we can go back to that secluded romm a while back. We can barricade ourselves there and I think there were beds there."

PC: "No, we sleep here!"

 

Party: ......

 

*PC is murdered in his sleep*

[Lephys]

People who complain about limitatiosn are crappy rolepalyers (IMHO).

 

You should be able to rest everyhwere? Technicly, yes. Jsut like you should be abel to kill everyone and place their corpses in hillarious sexual positions..like players often do in Skyrim. Or just like you could strip a NPC of his clothes and send him packing in his birthday suit to attack a dragon alone.

 

Neither of those actions make sense. Seems to me that players forget that from a perspective of a living, breathing person in the setting, the PC is a grade A lunatic.

 

So let the player dowhatever he wants - BUT. Give him realistic consequences. Have your party hate you or try to murder you in your sleep if you are constantly, needlesly brining them into danger or do stupid stuff.

 

PC: "lost 10 HP. Let's Sleep here."

Party NPC: "Here? You got to be kidding! It's not safe. We haven't cleared any of the tunnels, there could be goblins and all kinds of nasties everywhere."

Party NPC2: "yeah. And we've been only exploring for an hour. Nobody is tired yet. We could stop for a few minutes tough."

PC: "No, we sleep. Now."

Party NPC: "I can't sleep on command.... Look, if you're that sleepy we can go back to that secluded romm a while back. We can barricade ourselves there and I think there were beds there."

PC: "No, we sleep here!"

 

Party: ......

 

*PC is murdered in his sleep*

Haha! YES! Or, they just go on without you, handle the situation, and you miss out on the rewards AND the XP. Not to mention beneficial reputation.

 

"Oh, we rescued the king's daughter all right. But HE didn't! *points to main character* Ohhhh no, he got a little scratch on his knee, and decided it'd be best to take a 4-hour nap and bust out the poultices, because it's not like this little girl could be slain at any moment by crazed bandits, or that we could accomplish our task WITH A SCUFFED KNEE! >_<"

 

Then the kingdom puts you in the stocks for 3 days and pelts you with rotten fruit and refuse.

[Micamo]

People who complain about limitatiosn are crappy rolepalyers (IMHO).

 

You should be able to rest everyhwere? Technicly, yes. Jsut like you should be abel to kill everyone and place their corpses in hillarious sexual positions..like players often do in Skyrim. Or just like you could strip a NPC of his clothes and send him packing in his birthday suit to attack a dragon alone.

 

Neither of those actions make sense. Seems to me that players forget that from a perspective of a living, breathing person in the setting, the PC is a grade A lunatic.

Maybe: I'd say the problem is that the system rewards crappy (or at least boring) storytelling. In a game that's all about resource conservation anything that allows you to get your resources back is something you wanna do as often as possible. Resting whenever you can is the optimal strategy, period. You can patch up the problem with "consequences" all you like but there's a fine line between "logical consequences for your actions" and "you did something I don't like so I'm going to punish you for it."

[TrashMan]

Except resting doesn't have to give yo back all of your resurces...or at least not qihout cost. Thus you have a balance. You get something, you loose something. To do resting justice, one needs to look at what makes resting a unviable course of action in  real life.

 

1) You CAN'T physicly sleep whenever you want to. In fact, too much sleep can be bad for you.

 

2) For sleep to be truly beneficial, you need 8 hours of it. It removes mental and body fatigue.

 

3) Sleep doesn't "really" heal you - time does. And proper medical care. Atlough sleep has a positive effect on healing.

 

4) Sleeping/resting costs time and that is a "resource" too. Also, food and medical supplies and other odds and ends are finite too.

 

5) Some locations are just too unwise to rest in. You party members *WOULD* object if they had any brains.

 

 

 

So, where does this put us? Simple.

Woulds often cause bleeding. Bleeding can be stopped by bandaging, but HP lost in battle is NOT easily regained. There is no instant HP restoration inside of battle. HP are restored naturally over time, but slowly.

 

There are two kinds of resting: a  short break to mend wounds and cath your breath (let's call ti rest rest), and making camp and sleeping (let's call it sleep or better yet, camp).

 

The first one can be taken anywhere at any time. It takes away an hour or less of your time.

During that times wounds are mended and basic healing applied, and small amoutns of medical resources are expended (possibly food too, mostly water).

A small amount of HP and stamina is restored, but a full restoration requires proper care and rest.

Spamming rest won't work to fully restore your stamina or HP, as traveling, fighting and wounds reduce your MAXIUMUM stamina/mana/HP/whatever, and only camping restores it.

Camping can only be done on secure locations and after a certain time period (once per day) and it takes more medical and food resources, but it also ramps up the rate of healing. Resting in inns/cities ramps it up even more.

 

So while resting can keep your party going for a while, the overall effectiveness drops with each battle.

 

Think of something similar to the JA2 system. A wounded NPC will heal over time. With minimal resting/campaing it might take a heavily wounded NPC days to fully recover. With more resting that time might be cut in half. Resting in a town may cut that down even futher (while not using any of your resources..other than gold)

[Lephys]

Maybe: I'd say the problem is that the system rewards crappy (or at least boring) storytelling. In a game that's all about resource conservation anything that allows you to get your resources back is something you wanna do as often as possible.

Which is exactly why "as often as possible" is limited to "only so often." If it wasn't, "conservation" would literally be moot. Imagine if, in a first-person shooter, you had limited ammo, but, whenever you ran out, you could simply click "replenish ammo" and you were full again. Well, you really just have unlimited ammo, with the added, pointless middle-man step of having to actually manually replenish it. "I better worry about not running out of ammo, 'cause them I'd have to click a button and get more, and that would be awful."

 

So, the very existence of a limitation is what facilitates the significance of resource conservation. And that brings us to now. Here, on this forum, discussing the best way to take into account all factors involved so that the resting system actually gives value to the game and adds a layer of positive depth, rather than simply adding frustration (or adding more trouble than it's worth).

 

Simply saying "well, it requires more effort, and that's just plain bad" is just as silly as saying "Well, it's kind of interesting to think about, so therefore it's definitely good and can't possibly cause any problems." The only way to look at this is to look at both at the same time, and that's what we're doing. So, it'd be really fantastic if we could actually skip to brainstorming and evaluating the possibilities and their pros and cons, and give up on the pointless "discussion" of whether or not an unspecified resting mechanic is inherently good, or inherently bad. P:E already did away with its black-and-white morality system, so I think we can do the same with our mechanic discussions.

 

I think Trashman's described system, above, is an EXCELLENT start, at the very least. Commence the constructive criticism! 8D

 

I'm going to go ahead and suggest that, perhaps, the time-limitation on resting (of once per day only) be slightly abstracted into a "cooldown" for a given campsite. The reason being that you're probably going to go through areas (between campable sites) that really only take about 4-or-so hours worth of trekking (maybe a couple more with your proposed minor resting), tops, to get through, but are quite tough areas (for lack of a better word) and will basically have you begging for full healing when you emerge at yet another campsite.

 

Or... to put it more simply, I'd hate to see you go through a cave system, get all scuffed up, emerge on the other side to find a campsite, and say "Great... we hafta wait like 6 more hours before we can legitimately rest again." Or... I'm not sure balancing everything so that it DEFINITELY takes you at least 24 hours (game time) to plow through a dangerous area wouldn't kinda trample on the lore, if that makes any sense.

[TrashMan]

 

I think Trashman's described system, above, is an EXCELLENT start, at the very least. Commence the constructive criticism! 8D

 

I'm going to go ahead and suggest that, perhaps, the time-limitation on resting (of once per day only) be slightly abstracted into a "cooldown" for a given campsite. The reason being that you're probably going to go through areas (between campable sites) that really only take about 4-or-so hours worth of trekking (maybe a couple more with your proposed minor resting), tops, to get through, but are quite tough areas (for lack of a better word) and will basically have you begging for full healing when you emerge at yet another campsite.

 

Or... to put it more simply, I'd hate to see you go through a cave system, get all scuffed up, emerge on the other side to find a campsite, and say "Great... we hafta wait like 6 more hours before we can legitimately rest again." Or... I'm not sure balancing everything so that it DEFINITELY takes you at least 24 hours (game time) to plow through a dangerous area wouldn't kinda trample on the lore, if that makes any sense.

 

 

Well, there doesn't have to a be a FIXED once per 24 hours limit.

I see it more as a function that checkes how often you sleep and applies penalties for "overresting".

 

I'd also propose that RESTING (not sleeping/camping) at a campsite is better than resting anywhere. ..if we are to duscuss the system I proposed, then differentiating between resting and camping/sleeping is critical to having a fruitfull discussion.

[Mico Selva]

Resting does not equal sleeping, although it may (and should) involve it. You can't really sleep for 72 hours straight, but you can rest for that amount of time, essentially doing nothing but eating, sleeping and relaxing around the campfire.

 

Artificial limitations on resting will always be... well, artificial. If the game is supposed to be a BG/IWD/PST spiritual successor, limiting resting to designated areas is more than enough.

 

If I had any say in this matter, I would probably divide areas into three cathegories: dangerous, unsafe and safe. Resting in dangerous areas would be impossible, resting in safe areas would always work without interruption. Unsafe areas would have a (varying) probability of being attacked while resting, which would increase with longer resting times.

[Rahelron]

I would not enjoy to be compelled to find an inn every time I needed to sleep. To be honest I wouldn't enjoy to be compelled to rest to recharge my spells and my "one day only" talents too. If that was the case I would have to "rest-spam" as I did in BG and that was not a funny thing to do, it was just a hassle.

 

I am all for the need to sleep and eat in project eternity, but I think it should be managed in a new way. A good way to implement such a feature would be to give a "soft" penalty to those who refused to sleep at least once a day. An example: the playing characters should be able to stay awake 16 hours without any penalty. If they stayed awake more they should get a -1 to every dice roll for every hour.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Rahelron

[Eiphel]

New Vegas's hardcore mode did that. The longer you went without sleep the less competent you became.

[TrashMan]

I will (again) refer to the way Jagged Alliance 2 did it. It felt very real and tactical.

 

Your stamina (or energy) would drain as you did various physical actions, but it re-charched quickly. The MAX stamina would drop tough and it could only be recovered by camping.

Damage taken would slowly heal over time, you couldn't magicly refill it.

 

So you could push your team hard for a few days, but when fatigue and wounds accumulated, it was time to fall back.

 

For PE, I invision something like half HP lost to a wound can be recovered by other means (potions, magic, etc..), while the other half can only be recovered over time.

 

So, to put this in perspective

 

PC has 100 HP and 100 Stamina

the party enters a battle

PC now has 80 HP and 60 Stamina (with the max stamin falling to 90)

Resting (a short top. NOT proper sleeping/camping)  for a few minutes and casting healing spell, the PC in now at 90HP..the final 10HP will have to be slowly recovered.

His stamina has also re-filled itself. (possibility of raising the MAX stamina by 5 points on resting? Cleary capped so resting several times in a row cannot raise the stamina cap back to full)

 

This enables a party to keep going and push trough multiple encounters. You can always recover some of the HP and stamina lost, but never all of it.

Damage avoidance is more important than in most RPG's.

And this is where the problem lies. CRPG's are very combat heavy (compared to PnP), because encounters are easy to make, while other content isn't.

 

Personally I'd rather have fewer more interesting fights and less filler.

 

 

I'm going on a tangent a bit, but talking about a rest system as if it exists in a vacuum is impossible.

A rest system is interwined with the balance and mechanics of many other things.

[Lephys]

Well, there doesn't have to a be a FIXED once per 24 hours limit.

I see it more as a function that checkes how often you sleep and applies penalties for "overresting".

 

I'd also propose that RESTING (not sleeping/camping) at a campsite is better than resting anywhere. ..if we are to duscuss the system I proposed, then differentiating between resting and camping/sleeping is critical to having a fruitfull discussion.

A fair point. Clear terminology, FTW! Sorry about that.

 

Also, I wasn't meaning to suggest you were adamant about a fixed, full-24-hour limit. I just to feel I owe it to everyone here to respond with actual reasoning behind my seemingly-arbitrary claims, rather than saying "It shouldn't be 24 hours," and just leaving it at that.

 

For what it's worth, I recently got Betrayal at Krondor on GOG (it's totally on sale right now. Or it was...), and I've been playing it again. I think it's from 1993? Anyway, it's system rudimentarily mimics the system you're suggesting (except everything's sleeping/camping, with no distinction between that and resting). And, I have to say, it really works out well. Of course, it's turn-based combat, and there are other differences between the games.

 

However, this makes me think of another point (along the lines of your "this stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum" point) I think is worth stressing to those concerned about all this: Games in which you can rest with lesser-or-no limitations have combat encounters that are specifically balanced with "as long as someone has like 1 hitpoint left at the end of this, you're fine to push forward" in mind. If P:E is designed around rest limitations, then the likelihood that one bout of combat will take you down to 20% health will be extremely slim. Not saying some encounters won't be significantly tougher than others, but, the overall scheme will not be "okay, just duke it out, and you're expected to take like 50% damage if you're careful, and 80% if you're not."

 

This is specifically a sentiment they spoke of when talking about the Stamina/health system. Health is specifically designed to viably last you the duration between camp spots. They're not just taking an old IE game, then tossing in a new limitation and calling it a day.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Lephys

[TrashMan]

Indeed.

 

The way I see it, your health (and the partial restores from resting) should be enough to last between camping spots.

 

A well-executed battle should leave you almost completley unharmed.

[teknoman2]

disclaimer

TL:DR what was said in these 6 pages so im going with my suggestion on the matter even if someone has said it before

in the first neverwinter game, there was a limitation to the resting: you had to be in a room with only one entrance. i liked that idea of having only certain areas safe and the rest unfit for rest, however this should apply only to sleeping in a dangerous place

now, when it comes to actual resting, i think there should be certain factors that dictate the type of rest, because as someone suggested, rest includes all sorts of micromanagement like eating, sleeping, patching up wounds, using the wc and so on. also there needs to be a distinction between sleeping and resting, because no matter how tough the 30 minute long battle against the dragon and his horde of orcs was, it cant make you need sleep. however it makes for a sore arm or two, some wounds that bleed, the need to puke in a corner because of the stench of spilled entrails, the need to let the adrenaline rush pass and so on. so there should be a sleep meter like the fatigue in BG that indicates when a character needs sleep, and if the characters dont need to sleep, rest should be short breaks like 30min or 1 hour for the stamina to recharge and to remove status ailments (can be done anywhere); also this kind of resting does not count for the sleep meter, so no matter how many times you take a break, after 15-16 hours awake you will need sleep (shorter if you lose too mush stamina too often during the day). also, if i remember correctly, they said something about a morale system for battles... if you stay at the same spot and rest  continuously for too long in a dungeon (unless you need sleep), the constant stress of doing nothing while monsters could be bashing on the door at any time, should make for a serious demoralization, reducing effectiveness in the next battle, even if you have regained more hp

Edited June 20, 2013 by teknoman2

[decado]

I'm sorta late to this party, but here goes nothing . . .

 

It seems to me the best way to tackle the issue is a combination of areas zoned for resting (or at least areas where you specifically can't rest) and resource management.  I know a lot of people balk at resource management, but I don't get why.  I mean, all RPGs are essentially resource management engines in some regard -- some moreso than others, sure, but it's always there.  

 

The suggested use of rations or tents is met with the objection that "Well all I have to do is carry a ton of rations!"  But this isn't necessarily true, as there are several ways around this problem.  You could make them weigh a certain amount, making them uneconomical to overload yourself with.  Or even easier, simply put a hard cap on how many rations you can carry per person.  This allows you to replenish your rations while adventuring (if you happen to find any) without letting you game the system by carrying an unrealistic amount of food.  A properly balanced economy could also help defend against this kind of resource hoarding.  Let rations expire, and attach a reasonable cost to them.  

 

It seems obvious that there needs to be some kind of limit on resting, otherwise many of the game's other mechanics fail to make any sense.  I think most people realize that respawning enemies is a silly idea as it seems needlessly punitive and completely unrealistic (even within the bounds of the slightly fantastic).

 

The other way to tackle this is to limit the ability to relearn per-rest abilities to once in a 24 hour period.  Rest all you want, but you won't get your ability back until tomorrow.   Another way to do it is to put a cap on how much can be recovered/relearned when resting in a dungeon as opposed to wilderness or an inn, sort of Betrayal at Krondor style.  Resting at an inn restores everything to 100%, resting in the wilderness gets you to 85% and resting in a stinky, damp dungeon gets you to 75%.  That way, there is an actual incentive to use inns, and an actual disincentive to being lazy and stupid when charging into a dungeon a long way from home.  Which, again, is fairly realistic to begin with.  Tack on a simple resource like rations and you have a balanced solution that rewards smart planning.

[JFSOCC]

I have mentioned it in several other places, but I guess it belongs in this thread more than anywhere else:

I believe the solution is to gamify resting.

 

Making resting part of the game, picking a spot, setting up camp (campfire, tents/bedrolls, traps, fences, gong pit) setting a watch schedule.

This way, resting takes some time, but it does not become boring and repetitive.

You can make camp fast if you feel safe (no watch, big campfire, no tents, just bedrolls, no traps)

You can make camp fast if you just want to reactivate an ability (watch schedule excludes mage, big campfire, tent for one, bedrolls for others, no traps)

Or slow if you expect trouble you can handle: (2 watchmembers per 2 hour period, campfire, tents, traps, caltrops)

Or if you expect trouble you may need to run away from: (2 watchmembers per 2 hour period, no campfire to draw attention, no tents to pack up again, no traps, but some caltrops, and an extra alarm spell further out, camouflage netting)

 

Different environments and situations would call for different approaches to setting up camp. A camp set up would need to be torn down again (or abandoned if you can afford to waste the resources) Between days, you can keep the camp and schedule set up, in case you wish to rest several times.

 

The problems this solves:

1. Time frustration

-it's easier to restock full health in safe areas, it will require less resting. But you do have to make the effort of spending time setting up a bigger camp. (so not one click back to full)

2. Rest scumming:

You're not going to set up camp to heal a scratch. You can set up camp faster to heal minor injuries, but this is a calculated risk which the player has control over.

3. Resting as immersion breaking reset button:

No more one click resting, resting becomes an experience part of the game.

 

Different areas will dynamically influence the decision on how to build your camp.

A cold location may require a campfire irrespective of the number of enemies roaming the region, a secluded spot may not require a watch, caltrops and an alarm spell may be all that is required to keep those goblins at bay.

 

This way you can

Rest anywhere; (and make informed choices to deal with risks)

Spend as much or as little time as you want on resting. (and make informed choices to deal with risks)

 

While the game can be balanced on the fact that:

Not everywhere is suitable for resting

Rest scumming is going to be at the player's own risk.

 

Camp can also make for cool content. You can have some exposition of the area or lore, or one of your companions motivations, through campfire tales. You can have interesting things happen at camp during the night. (based on the location, situation and camp set-up)

And personally, I think it's much more immersive because you'll be experiencing something rather than using a button for a game mechanic. You'll be that adventurer, camping in odd places.

[Hormalakh]

The Infinity Engine games had a big problem - the player's ability to rest at will, with almost no limitations or consequences, trivialized the game's strategic layer.

 

We know Project Eternity will be addressing this somewhat, by restricting resting to designated rest areas. However, even that may be too forgiving. Back in April, I asked Josh Sawyer this: http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/449363929492124469

 

 

 

Have you considered adding a "rest resource" to PE, like Tents in traditional JRPGs? If you have rest areas within dungeons, that could help prevent people from constantly backtracking to them in order to refill their health, trivializing the dungeon.

 

We've talked about it, but for now we're going to see how the rest areas work on their own. Some people on the team believe that if we limit the use of the rest locations it will be excessively punitive.

Knights of the Chalice generally allows players to re-use rest sites, but there's at least one area I remember that doesn't and I saw a lot of negative response to it.

Personally, I do worry about the potential for player dissatisfaction either if resting removes all challenge or if restricted resting makes things too frustrating. In any case, it's something we're going to be looking at and thinking about more as we continue development.

So, it looks like things are still up in the air.

 

Assuming the game does end up supporting unlimited resting in rest areas, an alternative solution would be to respawn monsters in the dungeon every time the player rests. That would mean the player would have to think twice before clicking that Rest button, because clearing the dungeon again could turn out to be a big headache - not to mention he might need to rest again after doing it!

 

Remember, we want resting to have consequences, but the solution has to be relatively cheap to implement, because in the end, this game is a story-driven RPG, not "Dungeon Simulator 2014". So that means complex scripted things like "the goblins fortify the dungeon and beef up their patrols while you rest" aren't a viable all-purpose solution.

 

Thoughts?

Late to the party...

 

I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again.

 

Resting is an abstraction, so we will need it.

 

The issue of it being too restrictive or it minimizing strategic concerns and removing all difficulty can be solved based on player difficulty settings. Resting should be limited use for normal to hard difficulties (increased difficulty, decreased number of rests, being slightly more forgiving for normal difficulty) and unlimited in easy mode for those players who find the difficulty of the limited rest resource in the game too frustrating.

 

This should be the philosophy of resting. Everything else is just mechanical details. How it's implemented should match up with the setting of the game, designer choices, story reasons, etc

Edited June 30, 2013 by Hormalakh

[radioactivelullaby]

hmm, but would't that be very penalizing against mage-heavy parties? what I mean is that in the hardest difficulty it would be a lot harder for a party with several wizards than a party with just one or none. (haven't read through all of the posts so I don't know if it's been mentioned already)