Dragon Age III / The Witcher 3 trailers. Impressions?

[Malekith]

 

 

there's just a general pettiness out there towards anything Bioware.

In BSN?  I can understand it here or in Witcher forums or RPGCodex, but Bioware's own forum isn't supposed to be Bioware fans?

 

Who do you think would be most disappointed with Bioware's recent titles if not their fans?

 

The ones with the greatest hope are often those hit the hardest by bitter disappointment.

 

To be disapointed is one thing. To be petty for the sake of pettiness and negatively predisposed against the game no matter what doesn't make sense to me. Do they want the game to be good, or do they want the game to fail so they can gloat to Gaider? Your comment implies the second.

[Tale]

To be disapointed is one thing. To be petty for the sake of pettiness and negatively predisposed against the game no matter what doesn't make sense to me. Do they want the game to be good, or do they want the game to fail so they can gloat to Gaider? Your comment implies the second.

It's like a bad breakup. It's an emotional base, not a rational one.

[anubite]

I liked some things about DA:O, like the ability to harden Alistar/Leiliana, and I liked Morrigan's snark. I liked that it was a Baldur's Gate successor, even if it didn't get much right on that front. I also liked the tone of the first game and I liked that each race had two or more origin stories - that you had origin stories at all. But having played the game close to three times, I think I'm pretty cemented in my dislike of most what it stands for. DA2 was just awful, I needn't say more.

 

I'm not a huge fan of The Witcher either. The first game had some really, really awful elements (the swamp, a lot of the early game combat, the sex trading card game nonsense), the second game was a little too linear and heavyhanded; but I generally enjoyed both games enough I'll get a used copy of TW3.

Edited June 19, 2013 by anubite

[NOK222]

 

To be disapointed is one thing. To be petty for the sake of pettiness and negatively predisposed against the game no matter what doesn't make sense to me. Do they want the game to be good, or do they want the game to fail so they can gloat to Gaider? Your comment implies the second.

It's like a bad breakup. It's an emotional base, not a rational one.

 

This bunny speaks wisely

 

 

 

I didn't think Morrigan or Varric looked like they looked in their previous games.

I know, I was being slightly sarcastic. While Morrigan looks a bit...off to me, I'm not gonna fuss over it. Varric looks like he tied his hair more and he has a scar for some reason. 

[Malekith]

 

 

To be disapointed is one thing. To be petty for the sake of pettiness and negatively predisposed against the game no matter what doesn't make sense to me. Do they want the game to be good, or do they want the game to fail so they can gloat to Gaider? Your comment implies the second.

It's like a bad breakup. It's an emotional base, not a rational one.

 

This bunny speaks wisely

 

 

And it seems it works both ways. Gaider doesn't seem to like his audience much.

[Nonek]

The whole situation appears a little distasteful if you ask me, can't see why the lead writer would even engage with the detractors. As Malekith says the gentleman appears not to care for their opinions, so why should he challenge and accuse them of misogyny?

[anubite]

I've seen the criticism against Morrigan's new look, and he's not wrong.

 

He's not entirely right either. It's not just misogyny, there's just a general pettiness out there towards anything Bioware. Misogyny is just a common tool in that particular box. There's not a lot of good signal to read in that feedback.

 

Full disclaimer: I actually like the look. So I may be biased.

You can defend BioWare if you wish, but I think the fans' discontent stems from the fact DA3 will have a different art style compared to DA2, which had a different art style from DA1. This happens when you change your art director after every game. BioWare has not been consistent with the look of their characters, which I don't think is a wise chioce.

[Malekith]

You can defend BioWare if you wish, but I think the fans' discontent stems from the fact DA3 will have a different ..........compared to DA2, which had a different ........from DA1. This happens when you change your .........after every game. BioWare has not been consistent with................................, which I don't think is a wise chioce.

 

 

Fixed. Of all the things Bioware was inconsistent about DA2, the art direction was the least problem.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

You can defend BioWare if you wish, but I think the fans' discontent stems from the fact DA3 will have a different ..........compared to DA2, which had a different ........from DA1. This happens when you change your .........after every game. BioWare has not been consistent with................................, which I don't think is a wise chioce.

 

Fixed. Of all the things Bioware was inconsistent about DA2, the art direction was the least problem.

True, it seems that they want to change almost every aspect of each release in the series. Which IMO sort of defeats the purpose of having a series.

 

The whole situation appears a little distasteful if you ask me, can't see why the lead writer would even engage with the detractors. As Malekith says the gentleman appears not to care for their opinions, so why should he challenge and accuse them of misogyny?

To score points with people who see misogyny around every corner?

Edited June 19, 2013 by KaineParker

[Zoraptor]

I do wonder if people complained about the new looks of Jaheira, Imoen, Viconia et alia in BG2 vs BG1 as if the sky was falling. At least it seems that Morrigan has put some clothes on, she always made me feel cold wandering around the world in that get up.

[anubite]

 

You can defend BioWare if you wish, but I think the fans' discontent stems from the fact DA3 will have a different ..........compared to DA2, which had a different ........from DA1. This happens when you change your .........after every game. BioWare has not been consistent with................................, which I don't think is a wise chioce.

 

 

Fixed. Of all the things Bioware was inconsistent about DA2, the art direction was the least problem.

 

Fair enough, but what I specifically mean is - RPGs are very story-driven. You become attached to the characters in the story. If the characters change their biological look with every new entry to the series, then we have a disconnect. This is only further hurt when characters (like a certain terrorist) start acting radically different from before and the "canonicalness" of character deaths are ignored.

 

BioWare's designers have said they want to make their own game; the fans will not be the rudder to steer the ship, so to speak. That's perfectly fine, but the way Gaider says it in his posts is not only disrespectful, but down-right stupid. Yes, 90% of people commenting on the design of a game should shut up, but every single good game I have ever played has been extensively playtested before and after release, furthermore, player input is always heard and contemplated, if not acted upon, during development, or after. Games have become a service-industry partially because of this.

 

You cannot stick your fingers in your ears and ignore feedback. It just doesn't work. The fact BioWare continues to do this only further cements the obvious fate that awaits them.

[Malekith]

I do wonder if people complained about the new looks of Jaheira, Imoen, Viconia et alia in BG2 vs BG1 as if the sky was falling. At least it seems that Morrigan has put some clothes on, she always made me feel cold wandering around the world in that get up.

But ecept the portraits, BG2 was BG+. That's how a sequel is made. Keep what's good, work on the areas that were problematic, and just add more content.

You don't fix things that aren't broken (replacing them with broken things no less), nor you reinvent the wheel making your game unrecognizable.Especially when you are on a tight budget and short time to make the game.

[anubite]

BioWare exists because of consumers and because of fans. Not because they contribute art to a majestic Lord in exchange for patronage. This doesn't mean they should listen to their fans, but it does mean they should please them. And if they will not please them, then they should please some other audience that will pay them for their work. Nobody is going to fork over money to BioWare because they're acting tsuntsun. Make on with the dere, Bioware-san.

 

If the fans don't like Morrigan's look, I think there's a problem. Why? Well, for one, she was a love interest in the first game. That immediately means she has a following. A big one. She was a sex object. And if you're going to take away that aspect of her character, don't tell me she's suddenly going to morph into Kreia...? Let's face it: if Morrigan is not going ot be eyecandy, she better damn well contribute to the story, the world, the theme, and the weight of the game. But I'm pretty sure Morrigan isn't going to grow wings and become this beautiful character that enthralls me like Kreia. So, already, BioWare is just alienating consumers for the sake of being a big ass.

 

If Morrigan is going to contribute something more significant to the story this time around, then by all means, show it to us. Why did we not see any of that in the gradiose trailer at E3? Where's the substance at, if this will be a substantive entry into the series?

 

And before you get on my case - the climax of Dragon Age Origins is a choice: Will you **** Morrigan, or will somebody else? Or will you not **** her at all? 

 

I'm not exaggerating. This is a pivotol choice in the story for saving all of Ferelden. Your life, or sex. How can she not be a sex object, then? The writers begged us to treat, to look upon her that way. Isn't it kind of backwards to throw misogyny at us for reaping what you sowed?

[Zoraptor]

 

I do wonder if people complained about the new looks of Jaheira, Imoen, Viconia et alia in BG2 vs BG1 as if the sky was falling. At least it seems that Morrigan has put some clothes on, she always made me feel cold wandering around the world in that get up.

But ecept the portraits, BG2 was BG+. That's how a sequel is made. Keep what's good, work on the areas that were problematic, and just add more content.

You don't fix things that aren't broken (replacing them with broken things no less), nor you reinvent the wheel making your game unrecognizable.Especially when you are on a tight budget and short time to make the game.

 

See, I agree with you with respect to DAO vs DA2, too much baby was thrown out with bathwater, it was a relatively quick sequel etc. Having said that, there was no need to change the look of the characters from BG1-2 given that the elapsed time between games was not long at all, and for most of them you'd barely be able to recognise them unless you already knew they were the same person. For DA3 though? It's a new engine so change is inevitable, Morrigan is at least recognisable and, to be honest, 'jaw too manly' reads rather like the old Internet Standards 'elbows too pointy, 2/10' trope which is- even though it's currently one of the most overused terms on the internet- passable as misanthropy.

[Nonek]

I do think Bioware made a strategic bungle after the rapturous reception and sales Origins achieved. They had a new world that had just been introduced to the players, with lots of potentially interesting situations such as the Qunari bringing a much better way of life to the feudal slavery of Thedas, the dwarves teetering on the edge of extinction, the byzantine power plays of the fading Tevinter imperium etcetera. These were nice human situations, where there was no clear good guy and no easy answers, unlike the Mage/Templar conflict which is just illogical. So why not explore for another game one of these interesting situations, rather than change everything and usher in world changing events.

 

They seemed to be in a hurry and too eager to produce something epic, rather than something deep, and they certainly chose the wrong subject matter. The mages want equality with the common people of Thedas, who are slaves to feudal monarchies, so their rebellions aim is to decrease their living conditions. Nonsensical to say the least.

 

Then again the franchise is theirs to do with as they wish.

[licketysplit]

Bioware needs to hire better artists, that's the issue with Morrigan and the entire DA franchise. DA:O looked average and DA2's 'hot rod samurai' aesthetic was ridiculous. If your current artists can't hack it, get new ones. Maybe they could get CDPR to outsource a few, spruce up the art design, bring in some originality. Anyway, funny how there's hardly any info on DA3 after all this time. More development woes?

Edited June 20, 2013 by licketysplit

[ManifestedISO]

Bioware Montreal director today posted a photo of the Design Document (not the contents, just the binder) for ME4 and said it will use the same engine and "core features" as DAIII. An open-world Mass Effect RPG? Yes, thank you, I'll take two, one for my PC, one for my PS4. 

[anubite]

Bioware Montreal director today posted a photo of the Design Document (not the contents, just the binder) for ME4 and said it will use the same engine and "core features" as DAIII. An open-world Mass Effect RPG? Yes, thank you, I'll take two, one for my PC, one for my PS4. 

That is an interesting interpretation. Are you saying we'll be able to explore multiple planets? Or will ME4 be about being stranded in a single area on a single planet...? I don't expect ME4 to allow real time interstellar travel...

[BruceVC]

Bioware needs to hire better artists, that's the issue with Morrigan

 

I hear you, are you thinking what I'm thinking " chainmail witches outfit" for Morrigan ?

'

[Gorth]

I believe Bioware has quite competent artists. I suspect peoples "beef" is more with the decision making and the chosen art direction than with the people who have to work from those instructions.

 

For what it's worth, my pet grievance with DA2 was not the art direction (it's only visuals) and not with the recycled assets (they may have been repetitive, but they were nicely done, at least the first few times you zoomed past them). It was with the dropping of a interesting new skill/combat mechanics system, that really only seemed to need tweaking, for a very bad, simplified system and even worse encounter design. They are the things you spend most of your time on in the game doing, they are the ones that should have been top notch. Your companions (well, the better half of them) were the redeeming feature of the game.

 

The Withcer 2 on the other hand... I wonder if it's worth reinstalling to see if I have overlooked any redeeming features.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I do think Bioware made a strategic bungle after the rapturous reception and sales Origins achieved. They had a new world that had just been introduced to the players, with lots of potentially interesting situations such as the Qunari bringing a much better way of life to the feudal slavery of Thedas, the dwarves teetering on the edge of extinction, the byzantine power plays of the fading Tevinter imperium etcetera. These were nice human situations, where there was no clear good guy and no easy answers, unlike the Mage/Templar conflict which is just illogical. So why not explore for another game one of these interesting situations, rather than change everything and usher in world changing events.

 

They seemed to be in a hurry and too eager to produce something epic, rather than something deep, and they certainly chose the wrong subject matter. The mages want equality with the common people of Thedas, who are slaves to feudal monarchies, so their rebellions aim is to decrease their living conditions. Nonsensical to say the least.

 

Then again the franchise is theirs to do with as they wish.

I think that they believed that Mass Effect was the way to go, and DA2 was an attempt to refocus the franchise around "fantasy Shepard".

 

I think Zor and Gorth make good points about DA2's changes for the worse, they had a combat system that needed a fair bit of tweaking, but didn't need to be thrown out in favor of a terrible action/party-based system that doesn't work well as either. I do think that dramatic changes to the art style harm a series as a whole.

 

I blame Morrigan's terrible look on the engine more than art style or artist ability, but IMO that doesn't really excuse it if they can do better. Gaider trying to blame complaints about how she looks on misogyny is intellectually dishonest at best and classless demonizing at worst. This isn't any different from people complaining about a badly drawn picture.

 

On the whole I'm not very optimistic for DA, which I did enjoy the first title(even if it was more "fantasy KOTOR" than "BG spiritual successor" IMO), because instead of sticking to the original concept of the series, the devs seem keen on reinventing it with almost every title.

Edited June 20, 2013 by KaineParker

[alanschu]

While ME was far from cutting edge, I will agree that the difference in design quality between the two franchises (ME and DA) is quite noticeable.  Did they use the same engine for both series? (Unreal Engine?)

 

 

In case this hadn't been answered yet, DAO and DA2 were built upon the Eclipse engine, which in many ways was an extension/evolution of the Aurora engine.

[licketysplit]

You can't blame Morigan's look on the engine, they're using a modified version of one of the best engines out there. Anyway, it's not terrible, just cliche, or rather bland. There's nothing remarkable about any of the character designs in DA. Granted, fantasy is a pretty hard genre to stand out in being plagued with ginormous swords and bikini armor and whatnot. Mass Effect is a different story, excellent art design. I love the look of those games.

 

Gaider's comment, lol. shows yet again the people at Bioware can't take criticism to save their life. 

[alanschu]

I've seen the criticism against Morrigan's new look, and he's not wrong.

 

He's not entirely right either. It's not just misogyny, there's just a general pettiness out there towards anything Bioware. Misogyny is just a common tool in that particular box. There's not a lot of good signal to read in that feedback.

 

Full disclaimer: I actually like the look. So I may be biased.

 

The way I read Gaider's comments, they come across more generally in that the threads regarding female characters tend to balloon up a lot more than threads on male characters (for a variety of reasons).  I didn't really think they were directed specifically at the thread itself, although there was some facepalming "Morrigan looks less attractive and less interesting now" types of comments.

 

 

 

 

To be disapointed is one thing. To be petty for the sake of pettiness and negatively predisposed against the game no matter what doesn't make sense to me. Do they want the game to be good, or do they want the game to fail so they can gloat to Gaider? Your comment implies the second.

 

There are definitely some that I feel want the game to fail because it'll grant them some level of schadenfreude.  I think some people continue to frequent the BSN simply because it's where they have historically gone, so it's kind of just habitual now.

 

 

 

 

True, it seems that they want to change almost every aspect of each release in the series. Which IMO sort of defeats the purpose of having a series.

 

Actually, one thing I liked about the games not really being direct sequels to one another is that it'd let us try mixing things up somewhat (IMO Square did this to pretty good success with the Final Fantasy games, although you could probably argue that they deviated less so than we did - and I'd probably agree with you).

[Monte Carlo]

If you are going to be creative and put stuff out there you need to take criticism. Gaider used to be able to do this, now he can't. *shrugs* What he does need to do is man up and take himself less seriously. And learn not to reply to fans so much, of course.

 

I am one of those people who believes in consistency. Change things but keep a recognisable aesthetic. Bioware failed to do this is Dragon Age, maybe because they've put themselves into a creative straightjacket with so much of their content (sappy, romance-based drama-lite soap opera) that they feel the need to go BIOWARE! F**K YEAH! on other aspects, like art direction.

 

For me, as someone who liked Dragon Age: Origins, DA2 was a sad example of Bio cutting its nose of to spite its face. Like after the BG series promising much and... delivering NWN.

 

However, this time I safely assume we can blame EA, but that's a whole other story.

 

As for Alan's point about schadenfreude I agree. I am guilty of this. I find Bioware's smug hubris about their success and fanbase annoying. I dislike their games. I am beginning to dislike them less nowadays as I feel their influence slipping, there are genuine alternatives and we all know that EA will take them for a walk in the woods with a .45 and a shovel soon.