Prism Program ( Big Brother gone too far?)

[Nepenthe]

You're ignoring the issue so you can sound off about The Great Satan.

 

There is a system for reporting problems of conscience. So far as I'm aware, none of these cases used that system. The system exists so that _action_ can be initiated by people with clout and seen through. More importantly, if my 'conscience' is mentally unstable, or factually incorrect then it gets dealt with in a responsible fashion.

 

What could go wrong there? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_Special_Counsel#Scott_J._Bloch

 

Sometimes, that system doesn't work (by design). Often, it doesn't give the protection from retaliation it should, or even originally was planned to do.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I seriously doubt Manning and Snowden are either after fame and personal exposure, or so stupid as to not be aware of political circles they could have brought their story to. Yet they chose not to. Do tell me why?

I don't follow. They released it to the press, so effectively, everyone in the world. Can you expand your thoughts on this?

 

 

He was saying they should have blown the whistle responsibly to institutions within the system. I'm saying they were aware of these institutions and chose ignore them, and asking why they did so. 

One possible answer is that they're after fame, something that's commonly said about Assange. But that doesn't make sense considering the risk of it all.

The other answer is that they didn't trust the system to work as it should so they went around it. And it turns out that Manning's presumption wasn't wrong - the soldiers that shot up the reporters and civilians were later acquitted or never in fact charged.

 

He's basically saying they should follow procedure instead of their own feelings, because unlike them, he isn't disillusioned. 

Is it a "responsible" act to dump sensitive information for all to see? No. But if you think that's the only way to get it out in the open, at personal cost, well that's what the word "responsible" means. 

[Walsingham]

I'll look into those cases and come back to the point.

 

Meanwhile none of you seem to have any interest in the notion that an individual can randomly decide to spurge dangerous information just because they think it's important. Manning could just as easily have been a private UFO nut seeing shadowy evidence of a conspiracy. Or he could be trying to undermine what he sees as a liberal gay-friendly administration.

 

You're all only happy because these instances accord with your personal views on what should be happening. It's like that bull**** with Ollie North back in the 80s. 

[Walsingham]

Malc: The Kirkland case is interesting, but it's hardly over yet. Nor has he done anything I really disagree with. Firstly, it looks like he's tried to address it internally and failed. Secondly, things like in-service housing and health care are all issues which are routinely criticised publicly, and aren't proscribed in any regs. You may have another example, or I may have misunderstood.

 

Nep: The Bloch case rang a bell, but it took me a while to dredge it back up. Again it's an interesting case worthy of discussion. But if an individual whistle-blower found they couldn't get anywhere with the 'correct' agency they still had Congress. The US has separation of powers for precisely these reasons.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'll look into those cases and come back to the point.

 

Meanwhile none of you seem to have any interest in the notion that an individual can randomly decide to spurge dangerous information just because they think it's important. Manning could just as easily have been a private UFO nut seeing shadowy evidence of a conspiracy. Or he could be trying to undermine what he sees as a liberal gay-friendly administration.

 

You're all only happy because these instances accord with your personal views on what should be happening. It's like that bull**** with Ollie North back in the 80s.

 

No. They are true heroes fighting this Great Satan by exposing information. Never mind if it gets people killed, international relations get damaged, or extremist groups get more ammunition to use for recruitment, people have a right to know every bit of military intelligence and the **** talking diplomats do.

Edited June 13, 2013 by KaineParker

[Walsingham]

I'd return to a point earlier, if you'll excuse me hammering on a bit.

 

Simply whistle-blowing is ... well it's about as useful as blowing a whistle. Information is nothing without action. Where organs exist in our democratic systems to hold malefactors accountable then we have no need of privately administered justice. Where such organs are absent, unhealthy, and unsupported by the people then the information by itself is meaningless noise.

 

The solution is not to con ourselves into thinking that the odd individualist can protect our freedoms. Like some bloody Hollywood movie. Over in 90 minutes and back to sleep. The answer, the tough answer, the expensive answer, the boring answer, is that we have to be ****ing adults. We have to inspect and elect good politicians.

 

This is still relevant to the OP because that's how I feel about this debate on personal freedoms vs. security in general. The answer isn't total control and nor is it total anarchy. Both are the choice of simpletons or the future ruler of simpletons.

 

What would really ****ing impress me at this point is if a single person could put together a summary of how the NSA is mandated and controlled. Post that and you get both ears and all my attention.

[Chilloutman]

For all who supports PRISM

 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

 

and I am not even US citizen hah

 

Also go and read Orwell

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chilloutman

[Malcador]

No. They are true heroes fighting this Great Satan by exposing information. Never mind if it gets people killed, international relations get damaged, or extremist groups get more ammunition to use for recruitment, people have a right to know every bit of military intelligence and the **** talking diplomats do.

Well, assuming people actually take that stand you are talking about...

 

But really, relations aren't damaged really as I assume most states are aware they are being spied on, jihadis aren't really hard up for deadheads to become suicide bombers.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well, assuming people actually take that stand you are talking about...

People actually do. When people hail someone who let loose classified information as a hero sticking it to the Great Satan or letting everyone be privy to the secrets of the government they are doing exactly that. There is a reason that military and intelligence information is classified other than "oppressing" people.

[Malcador]

So, we're bouncing off extremes then.

[exodiark]

For all who supports PRISM

 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

 

and I am not even US citizen hah

 

Also go and read Orwell

Lol, and you subscribed to 200-year-old idea? Time is changing, the world is not the same since there's Internet and there are billions of humans today. There's not enough room for everybody if they all want to live like Americans. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_overpopulation)

 

And you based your judgment on speculative fiction such as 1984? That's as reliable as basing your judgment from the Bible.

[pseudonymous]

 

For all who supports PRISM

 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

 

and I am not even US citizen hah

 

Also go and read Orwell

Lol, and you subscribed to 200-year-old idea? Time is changing, the world is not the same since there's Internet and there are billions of humans today. There's not enough room for everybody if they all want to live like Americans. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_overpopulation)

 

And you based your judgment on speculative fiction such as 1984? That's as reliable as basing your judgment from the Bible.

 

 

The novel 1984 wasn't speculative fiction, it was Orwell's critique of Stalinism set in a fictitious England so his audience would relate to the characters.  Not that the comparison is valid, no one is being black bagged, secretly tried, and brainwashed, they are just being monitored if they are talking to certain people outside of the United States.  All of this came out in 2006 with the last leak.

 

If you are really upset about it, stop whining and write your congress critter to get the law changed.  But considering FISA has been around since 1978 and is effective at disrupting attacks, good luck with that.

[exodiark]

 

 

For all who supports PRISM

 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

 

and I am not even US citizen hah

 

Also go and read Orwell

Lol, and you subscribed to 200-year-old idea? Time is changing, the world is not the same since there's Internet and there are billions of humans today. There's not enough room for everybody if they all want to live like Americans. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_overpopulation)

 

And you based your judgment on speculative fiction such as 1984? That's as reliable as basing your judgment from the Bible.

 

 

The novel 1984 wasn't speculative fiction, it was Orwell's critique of Stalinism set in a fictitious England so his audience would relate to the characters.  Not that the comparison is valid, no one is being black bagged, secretly tried, and brainwashed, they are just being monitored if they are talking to certain people outside of the United States.  All of this came out in 2006 with the last leak.

 

If you are really upset about it, stop whining and write your congress critter to get the law changed.  But considering FISA has been around since 1978 and is effective at disrupting attacks, good luck with that.

 

Thanks for the confirmation, but anyway 1984 is still a fiction, and basing real-life judgment from mere fiction is not wise, and reality is often stranger than fiction so no work of fiction can portray nor predict it.

 

And I don't really oppose PRISM, it has its merits. I was just responding to Chilloutman's answer.

[Walsingham]

He had me at the massive letters

 

 

Edit: It's a massive scam by publishers! 1984 sales are massively up. You cheap chiseller.

 

http://www.today.com/news/sales-orwells-1984-over-6-000-percent-after-nsa-news-6C10282307

Edited June 13, 2013 by Walsingham

[pmp10]

Also go and read Orwell

If you are going to recommend visions of dystopian future I'd say get 'Brave new World' instead.

In the future no technologically advanced totalitarianism will need monitoring or repression.

It's citizens will simply be incapable of any dissent whether by thought or action.

Edited June 13, 2013 by pmp10

[Walsingham]

Pmp10 is indeed correct.

 

The evil future you _should_ be worried about isn't one where your browsing monitors your thoughts.

 

It's one where your browsing creates your thoughts.

 

This is the kind of thing dealt with in Brave New World. Of course the preponderance of 'free' services like Google already do that to an extent.

[Guard Dog]

All joking aside there is a lot going on in the country that just depresses the hell out of me. Prism, the IRS has become Obama's own secret police targeting political dissenters, DHS is buying armored personnel carriers and weapons and ammo like they are expecting to go to war tomorrow, the IRS is training tax agents in the use of automatic weapons, our phone calls and internet use are being monitored, military members are being ordered not to read certain books, a mayor is Pinellas County is being sued for keeping a bible on her desk, the DHHS refused to allow a pair of 10 year old girls to have a lung transplant to satisfy policy... I could go on.

 

The people of this country have voted away their own freedom, bit by bit, and they don't even seem to know it yet. The worst part is they voted away mine too. I don't even think elections matter anymore. I've made jokes about this but I really believe a second civil war is inevitable. At some point the government is going to do something we just cannot tolerate and then the choice will be to acquiesce and surrender the last pretense of freedom or fight. Speaking only for myself there is no there choice at all . Besides, I don't think I want to live in the world the left is trying to build.

 

I used to think this would happen sometime far in the future. Now I would not be surprised if it starts tomorrow.

[Calax]

All joking aside there is a lot going on in the country that just depresses the hell out of me. Prism, the IRS has become Obama's own secret police targeting political dissenters, DHS is buying armored personnel carriers and weapons and ammo like they are expecting to go to war tomorrow, the IRS is training tax agents in the use of automatic weapons, our phone calls and internet use are being monitored, military members are being ordered not to read certain books, a mayor is Pinellas County is being sued for keeping a bible on her desk, the DHHS refused to allow a pair of 10 year old girls to have a lung transplant to satisfy policy... I could go on.

Just out of question, but how much do you expect this sort of thing happened previously? The ACLU is fighting the government over the wiretapping (they just filed suit recently), the bible thing is always contentious given how "CHRISTIANITY!" this whole state is (Betcha 20 bucks that if it'd been a Qua'ran the church groups would have filed suit), I don't know about the Military stuff.

 

Homeland security buying ammo and equipment is understandable. And even more so since Sarin Gas got turned loose in Syria today.

 

THe IRS thing, I can't really comment on. Yes what they did was bad, but I'm not sure if they went all the way to Obama for "political motivation" or just on their own. And technically the outcry is over something you don't even need. And technically they were filing as "501©3" organizations, which are by definition

Religious, Educational, Charitable, Scientific, Literary, Testing for Public Safety, to Foster National or International Amateur Sports Competition, or Prevention of Cruelty to Children or Animals Organizations

And specifically a-political. But anything with Patriot, Tea Party, etc is going to be political and thus shouldn't really be covered under the 501©3 exemption no?

 

It looks bad on paper, yes, but the IRS thing is them just doing their jobs, and now they're getting 'audited' for it.

 

Prism is gonna get fought over in court, like everything else. Personally I'm just more pissed off that the same crowd that is screaming that "the 2nd amendment shall be totally sacred and nothing shall ever EVER breach it's commandment or curtail it in any way shape or form!" are right now going (effectively) "Yep, your right to privacy is totally curtailed for Terrorist huntin! And your right to speech is curtailed for the same reason SUCKA!"

 

Edit: I should point out that where I was going initially with each item is that the reason you hear about all this stuff is because the news wants to sell ad space. There could be perfectly legit reasons for each, but right now the circumstances are kept relatively vague to sell you on what's going on.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Calax

[Zoraptor]

And you based your judgment on speculative fiction such as 1984? That's as reliable as basing your judgment from the Bible.

 

1984 has an excellent non speculative basis in the Panopticon theory as espoused by Jeremy Bentham- simply put, that you can control people by the belief that they are under constant surveillance. That theory has a very good basis in observation and behavioural science, simply the threat of observation is enough to get most to alter their behaviour to the form desired. For obvious reasons it is a favourite theory of any totalitarian state.

 

[exodiark]

 

And you based your judgment on speculative fiction such as 1984? That's as reliable as basing your judgment from the Bible.

 

1984 has an excellent non speculative basis in the Panopticon theory as espoused by Jeremy Bentham- simply put, that you can control people by the belief that they are under constant surveillance. That theory has a very good basis in observation and behavioural science, simply the threat of observation is enough to get most to alter their behaviour to the form desired. For obvious reasons it is a favourite theory of any totalitarian state.

 

 

Well then, if what you say is true, then show people the scientific journals that supports this psychology phenomenon in real life application, even theories have to be tested, right? Don't just stop at 1984

 

The second task is, is 1984 actually relevant in this topic? It is confirmed that NSA still have to retrieve data through legal means from those web companies. They don't have total authority over this.

Edited June 14, 2013 by exodiark

[Chilloutman]

 

For all who supports PRISM

 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

 

and I am not even US citizen hah

 

Also go and read Orwell

Lol, and you subscribed to 200-year-old idea? Time is changing, the world is not the same since there's Internet and there are billions of humans today. There's not enough room for everybody if they all want to live like Americans. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_overpopulation)

 

And you based your judgment on speculative fiction such as 1984? That's as reliable as basing your judgment from the Bible.

 

 

 

I am not American, I dont want to live as American, yet I am spied by Americans. There is saying:

 

These who dont learn from the past are doomed to follow same mistakes. (Say hello to WW3 - ultimate survival)

 

To be honest replying to something like that is little bit insulting. If you like beiing spied, good for me, but dont apply it on me please, go and by XBox - new in-house all time online camera in your living room. Rejoice everyone!

[Tagaziel]

1984 has an excellent non speculative basis in the Panopticon theory as espoused by Jeremy Bentham- simply put, that you can control people by the belief that they are under constant surveillance. That theory has a very good basis in observation and behavioural science, simply the threat of observation is enough to get most to alter their behaviour to the form desired. For obvious reasons it is a favourite theory of any totalitarian state.

So you mean when I'm leaving my house and entering a crowded street I'm altering my behaviour to the form desired by society? Cool, totally didn't know that before. Sarcasm aside, I think you've confused Bentham with Foucault, the designer of the Panopticon and the developer of the panopticism theory.

 

Also, 1984 is not really relevant because there is no ubiquitous Thought Police. The key difference is that Miniluv could and did monitor everyone, everywhere, at every point of their lives. Our intelligence agencies do not and cannot do that.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Tagaziel

[Chilloutman]

 

1984 has an excellent non speculative basis in the Panopticon theory as espoused by Jeremy Bentham- simply put, that you can control people by the belief that they are under constant surveillance. That theory has a very good basis in observation and behavioural science, simply the threat of observation is enough to get most to alter their behaviour to the form desired. For obvious reasons it is a favourite theory of any totalitarian state.

So you mean when I'm leaving my house and entering a crowded street I'm altering my behaviour to the form desired by society? Cool, totally didn't know that before. Sarcasm aside, I think you've confused Bentham with Foucault, the designer of the Panopticon and the developer of the panopticism theory.

 

Also, 1984 is not really relevant because there is no ubiquitous Thought Police. The key difference is that Miniluv could and did monitor everyone, everywhere, at every point of their lives. Our intelligence agencies do not and cannot do that.

 

 

Yet

[exodiark]

 

 

For all who supports PRISM

 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

 

and I am not even US citizen hah

 

Also go and read Orwell

Lol, and you subscribed to 200-year-old idea? Time is changing, the world is not the same since there's Internet and there are billions of humans today. There's not enough room for everybody if they all want to live like Americans. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_overpopulation)

 

And you based your judgment on speculative fiction such as 1984? That's as reliable as basing your judgment from the Bible.

 

 

 

I am not American, I dont want to live as American, yet I am spied by Americans. There is saying:

 

These who dont learn from the past are doomed to follow same mistakes. (Say hello to WW3 - ultimate survival)

 

To be honest replying to something like that is little bit insulting. If you like beiing spied, good for me, but dont apply it on me please, go and by XBox - new in-house all time online camera in your living room. Rejoice everyone!

 

Lol and are you using American web services right now? Like Google or Facebook? They're spying as much as Kinect will be, or worse.

 

These who dont learn from the past are doomed to follow same mistakes. (Say hello to WW3 - ultimate survival)

 

Except this is the first time humanity faced globalization, internet, climate change, and overpopulation, there's no past theories that can solve all today's problems. All we can do is trial-and-error.

[Chilloutman]

well If you think that spiing on me will help with overpopulation you are fool, and its not first time, all great empires of history were ''globalizations' and climate changes were there from beginning of time. And you know what? most of problems were 'fixed' by some horrific war (especialy good way how to deal with overpopulation) all of this have nothing to do with giving up my privacy. We in Europe still have some degreee of democracy so dont apply American fascistic manners on me, thanks. If I have choise 1) never allow me to enter America territory or 2) let us spy on you I would definetly skip trip to US

 

And for record, I dont have facebook, I dont have twitter, I dont have blog, Internet was developed in Germany as far as I know. And yes I got Google email even I dont want to (company email) and my personal email is not on google. I dont use my real name on any internet page I know of

Edited June 14, 2013 by Chilloutman