Fear of women body in modern videogames

[Chaz]

 

Well for the record I am opposed to abuse of any women throughout the world. But in many countries where women's rights are marginalized there is very little we can do as we don't control the culture or laws in those countries. But we can object to how Western gaming  development companies  portray women if we feel its offensive. We can use forums and have discussions that raise awareness. As someone who travels to the Middle East for work I firmly believe we can have more impact on changing gaming companies  than some of the cultures in some parts of the world.

 

Obviously my respect goes out to anyone that is opposed to Real violence against women in real life. As for drawings of women in video games or comic books, well, first you would have to make a pretty strong case on how it's harmful in any way before trying to tell people that they should be against it. Unless it's a matter of artistic preference, if you just find some of these artworks unappealing or exaggerated I'm right there with you, but I think some people go way to far when they try to imply that this causes some sort of harm or that is immoral, Specially when there's no evidence for that.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Chaz

[Tagaziel]

Hello There...    (and don't give me that objectification crap, what are you going to talk about next? the patriarchy?)

 

NOT QUESTIONING HIS CHOICE OF ATTIRE AT ALL!

Overly sexualized portrayal of women is not objectification? Heh, that's a new one.

 

I'm not sure why you're posting Conan, though. Guess you missed the point. By about an astronomical unit.

[obyknven]

Well, my point is that gaming, or a variety of reasons, is an activity enjoyed by young males. They are, by definition, immature. Their reaction to any female is going to be sleazy. Believe me. I come from before the internet.

Yet another Daddy wants "save" youths from yourself. Boobs so dangerous for young males. Look at these poor Gypsy children's, they become cursed by this malicious women and never become good Christians. What a shame!

http://youtu.be/s7al-_JywkQ

 

Meanwhile ATLUS censored Dragon's crow badges for E3, because "Murican phobia of big boobs. Guys, it's just stupid, these pictures even don't have erotic or pornographic content for such society reaction.

 

[Amentep]

Now that is fine if this is a niche title trying to appeal to a small audience.  But the majority of games should be broadening their player base, not limiting themselves to fulfill some juvenile fantasies.

 

It is a niche title.  Its a 2D Golden Axe / Dungeons and Dragons: Tower of Doom successor.

 

 

Maybe, but on the other hand I'm not going to play the new TR game precisely because its obviously targeting an audience that I'm not a part of. And that has nothing to do with Lara's boobs and everything to do with a forced attempt to appeal to everyone. The same thing killed Mass Effect for me and many other games.

 

They may be games for "everyone", but they're not games for me. I find the new TR's gratuitous violence and the whole "from (practically) rape victim to avenger" more juvenile on the whole than the silly and carefree nonsense of the old Tomb Raiders. So what if she had large boobs? It was an innocent game about playing a female Indiana Jones, not a growing up story of a traumatised girl.

I enjoyed the new TR; while a part of the story does deal with Lara dealing with kill-or-be-killed situations, there's a lot that goes back to the original games sense of exploration and unfolding a 'secret history' of the location and its mythology. Its the only TR game other than the first one that I've liked.

 

But that's just my view, not trying to change yours.

[Keyrock]

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I enjoyed the new TR; while a part of the story does deal with Lara dealing with kill-or-be-killed situations, there's a lot that goes back to the original games sense of exploration and unfolding a 'secret history' of the location and its mythology. Its the only TR game other than the first one that I've liked.

 

But that's just my view, not trying to change yours.

 

 

If you say so, I can't comment on it apart from the marketing and the reviews I've read. Both of which have done a good job of turning me off from the game.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

Seems it's just social justice warriors these days.

 

 

More like internet white knights, protecting the world from the evil of big breasts.

 

 

Isn't being a White Knight a good thing?

 

 

Some women think otherwise.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

[Orogun01]

I find the issue of women being misrepresented in Video Games to be a narrow view of a much larger issue which its the over-representation of beauty in media. I tried really hard to remember the last time I saw an ugly female protagonist; and whilst everyone may have differing views on what beautiful is there are generally agreed upon subjects which qualify for one or the other. The fact was that I couldn't remember one instance were it was universally agreed upon that the main character was unappealing, they are at worst average.

Now I consider this to be a non-issue for being more a matter of style rather than an actual actively aggressive campaign to brainwash everyone into a standard of what beauty is. It is something that I believe people should be aware of as it is seen in every form of entertainment that's available, which means that ever since birth this information is being pumped into your brain to the point where it becomes unquestionable to have a hot chick in a game where the stylized proportions tend to lean to the grotesque (e.g: Gears of War) It has sort become the default and I believe that if the medium wants to grow  and become a legitimate art form it must shed some of these conceptions, or at least create an alternative to them.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I find the issue of women being misrepresented in Video Games to be a narrow view of a much larger issue which its the over-representation of beauty in media. I tried really hard to remember the last time I saw an ugly female protagonist; and whilst everyone may have differing views on what beautiful is there are generally agreed upon subjects which qualify for one or the other. The fact was that I couldn't remember one instance were it was universally agreed upon that the main character was unappealing, they are at worst average.

 

Now I consider this to be a non-issue for being more a matter of style rather than an actual actively aggressive campaign to brainwash everyone into a standard of what beauty is. It is something that I believe people should be aware of as it is seen in every form of entertainment that's available, which means that ever since birth this information is being pumped into your brain to the point where it becomes unquestionable to have a hot chick in a game where the stylized proportions tend to lean to the grotesque (e.g: Gears of War) It has sort become the default and I believe that if the medium wants to grow  and become a legitimate art form it must shed some of these conceptions, or at least create an alternative to them.

 

I agree, except I don't think its on the road to becoming a legit art form. But that's another discussion entirely.

 

But beauty is definitely abused for everything, from selling coffee to bubble gum. Games are nowhere near the blatant exploitation of the female (and male) form just about every company practices. 

 

Some of the aberrations that this creates, that I've personally witnessed are for example teenage girls pestering their parents to get them implants for their 18th birthday... because they've been brainwashed to the point that they think they need them to be pretty.

 

But that's capitalism for you. There's a product for the sucker that's born every minute.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Sannom]

Hello There...    (and don't give me that objectification crap, what are you going to talk about next? the patriarchy?)

 

NOT QUESTIONING HIS CHOICE OF ATTIRE AT ALL!

The patriarchy really is an obsession of yours, isn't it?

As for the content of your post, there is a huge difference between the two pics : the lady presumably wear armor while Conan doesn't wear any. The most ridiculous part of a chainmail bikini isn't the bikini, it's the chainmail.

 

btw, liking attractive females =/= objectification

Having nearly all female characters in video games be beautiful, sexy and appealing = objectification. Male characters are much more varied, no offense to whoever said the contrary a few posts back.

[HoonDing]

Mammae et circenses.

[Chaz]

Overly sexualized portrayal of women is not objectification? Heh, that's a new one.

 

 

 

Having nearly all female characters in video games be beautiful, sexy and appealing = objectification. Male characters are much more varied, no offense to whoever said the contrary a few posts back.

 

First of all, objectification I see it as a term that applies more for real people and not video games and caricatures. And if you're fear is that these type of games "brainwash" me and I will start objectifying real women after playing Dragon Crown, that's just as stupid as saying that I will start hacking and slashing everyone in real life because I just played an action RPG. Sane people can distinguish between real life and a fantasy game.

 

Also, objectification refers to when you treat someone as an object with absolutely no respect for their dignity and personality. I can't speak for everyone but that's not the case, if you play an RPG is precisely because of the opposite, because you enjoy they story, the characters and their personality, do they have sex appeal? sure, but that's no crime and nothing to apologize for.

 

Other games like fighting games or platformers like Mario have super simple story and one dimensional characters because that's not the focus of their game.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Chaz

[Volourn]

"Having nearly all female characters in video games be beautiful, sexy and appealing = objectification."

 

First off, that's not true. Second off, that isn't even objecticiation.

[obyknven]

Having nearly all female characters in video games be beautiful, sexy and appealing = matriarchat.

[Tagaziel]

First of all, objectification I see it as a term that applies more for real people and not video games and caricatures. And if you're fear is that these type of games "brainwash" me and I will start objectifying real women after playing Dragon Crown, that's just as stupid as saying that I will start hacking and slashing everyone in real life because I just played an action RPG. Sane people can distinguish between real life and a fantasy game.

You keep missing the point and resorting to poorly thought out argumentum ad absurdum. The point is the overall trend in games, a trend you apparently support, to treat women as eye candy. I'm not sure how you can find skimply outfits justifiable in settings that aren't purposefully ridiculously over-the-top, like Heavy Metal.

 

The trend is most present in fantasy games, contrary to all logic and reason. Cadegund is a brilliant 180 degree turn from this kind of crap, as she represents a practical, functionality-oriented approach to design. Instead of chainmail bikini you have proper armour with subtle feminine characteristics, as it should be.

 

Also, objectification refers to when you treat someone as an object with absolutely no respect for their dignity and personality. I can't speak for everyone but that's not the case, if you play an RPG is precisely because of the opposite, because you enjoy they story, the characters and their personality, do they have sex appeal? sure, but that's no crime and nothing to apologize for.

Modelling women in games to show off the biggest possible amount of skin at the expense of all logic and reason is objectification.

 

There's a world of difference between attractiveness and siccing boobs at the player. For reference, compare release Elizabeth to early Elizabeth in Bioshock: Infinite.

 

Other games like fighting games or platformers like Mario have super simple story and one dimensional characters because that's not the focus of their game.

So it's fine to have women treated like objects in fighting games, just because they're simple? What, you're going to defend Rapelay because story isn't the focus there?

[obyknven]

Cadegund is a brilliant 180 degree turn from this kind of crap, as she represents a practical, functionality-oriented approach to design. Instead of chainmail bikini you have proper armour with subtle feminine characteristics, as it should be.

Wut? Weak pedestrian girl in heavy cavalry armor is brilliant idea?! A Full Plate Armor suit could employ steel up to several millimeters thick in places, and typically weighed at least 150lbs (70kg).

[Tagaziel]

Wut? Weak pedestrian girl in heavy cavalry armor is brilliant idea?! A Full Plate Armor suit could employ steel up to several millimeters thick in places, and typically weighed at least 150lbs (70kg).

"Typically"? A full suit of field plate armour in the Renaissance (which roughly corresponds to Eternity's setting tech-wise) weighed about twenty (20) kilograms and marginally limited the wearer's mobility. You're confusing it with jousting armour, which was indeed heavy, but not up to 70 kg. 50 kg is a better estimate.

 

I'm not sure why you think infantry would consent to being turned into barely mobile tin cans that are defenseless the moment they trip over on the battlefield. Or that Cadegund's a weak pedestrian girl. Appearances are deceptive. Operators of various special forces throughout the world are generally unassuming and can hardly be told apart from the average pedestrian, yet are some of the most durable and strong people in the world.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Tagaziel

[Orogun01]

Worth pointing out that your average operator carries the equivalent of what amounts to a suit of medieval armor.

[BruceVC]

 

Wut? Weak pedestrian girl in heavy cavalry armor is brilliant idea?! A Full Plate Armor suit could employ steel up to several millimeters thick in places, and typically weighed at least 150lbs (70kg).

"Typically"? A full suit of field plate armour in the Renaissance (which roughly corresponds to Eternity's setting tech-wise) weighed about twenty (20) kilograms and marginally limited the wearer's mobility. You're confusing it with jousting armour, which was indeed heavy, but not up to 70 kg. 50 kg is a better estimate.

 

I'm not sure why you think infantry would consent to being turned into barely mobile tin cans that are defenseless the moment they trip over on the battlefield. Or that Cadegund's a weak pedestrian girl. Appearances are deceptive. Operators of various special forces throughout the world are generally unassuming and can hardly be told apart from the average pedestrian, yet are some of the most durable and strong people in the world.

 

 

But Tagaziel this discussion shouldn't be only be about what's realistic in respects to armour. Aesthetics has to come into it. I agree that the female character representation in Dragon Crown is ridiculous and I'm not suggesting PE follows  that route at all, but I really think Cadegund looks like a walking tin can and also isn't suitable for how I want my female  party members to look. We need to find a happy medium and for me that middle ground is an Isabella type person?

[Tagaziel]

In packs that aren't distributed as well as a suit of medieval field plate armour, orogun. That's beside the point, though, which was "looks can be deceptive."

 

Plus, field plate was intended to be worn during direct combat, not on week long deployments in extreme conditions with little in the way of support and transport.

 

But Tagaziel this discussion shouldn't be only be about what's realistic in respects to armour. Aesthetics has to come into it. I agree that the female character representation in Dragon Crown is ridiculous and I'm not suggesting PE follows  that route at all, but I really think Cadegund looks like a walking tin can and also isn't suitable for how I want my female  party members to look. We need to find a happy medium and for me that middle ground is an Isabella type person?

Aesthetics are a personal thing, but I firmly believe it is possible to design attractive feminine-looking armor without resorting to chainmail bikini or the dreaded boob plate. I like Cadegund's design because it's powerful, but has that feminine touch, at least for me. Maybe it's the rounded shapes and less angular appearance.

 

Come to think of it, Dreaded Mammary Plate could be a powerful magical item with a chance for seriously injuring or killing the wearer.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Tagaziel

[HoonDing]

Any discussion of armour in fantasy games is pointless as long as there are monks fighting bare-chested.

[BruceVC]

Any discussion of armour in fantasy games is pointless as long as there are monks fighting bare-chested.

 

A very valid point my friend, this leads towards the argument around realism in the implementation of armour in fantasy RPG.

[Bos_hybrid]

Games are often idealization of how someone will look. Not how they should look.

[HoonDing]

On the other hand...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Ll9h7EPTA

[Chaz]

Well, last night this thread surely slowed down and I think there are 399 reasons for that
 

 

You keep missing the point and resorting to poorly thought out argumentum ad absurdum. The point is the overall trend in games, a trend you apparently support, to treat women as eye candy. I'm not sure how you can find skimply outfits justifiable in settings that aren't purposefully ridiculously over-the-top, like Heavy Metal.
 

No man, you're the one that keeps missing the point, I brought up violence in video games because there's no evidence that it causes violence in real life, the same way there's no evidence that having eye candy characters, male of female, causes any sort of harm, and with no evidence of harm you don't have a case to protest this so called trend.

A trend that is not as prevalent as you may think, specially in the west, the RPGs I've played like Dragon Age or Fallout are really toned down, I even have a Sith Inquisitor in Star Wars: The Old Republic and she doesn't show an inch of skin.
 

 

 

Modelling women in games to show off the biggest possible amount of skin at the expense of all logic and reason is objectification.

There's a world of difference between attractiveness and siccing boobs at the player. For reference, compare release Elizabeth to early Elizabeth in Bioshock: Infinite.
 

If "show off the biggest possible amount of skin at the expense of all logic and reason" means having a cleavege, then no, that's no objectifiacion, unless you want to redefine the word.

You're talking about this? If this image is offensive to you there is absolutely no chance of reaching a middle ground in this conversation

 

 

 

So it's fine to have women treated like objects in fighting games, just because they're simple? What, you're going to defend Rapelay because story isn't the focus there?

 

 

 

I never said that, but hey I see that you like to use straw man after straw man and put words in my mouth, I don't know what Rapelay is but as far as fighting games are concerned all characters are treated equally, nobody is putting women down, you have to beat the crap out of everyone all the same, and there's a ton of men shirtless or "showing off the biggest possible amount of skin at the expense of all logic and reason" but I guess you're not gonna complain about those.

Man... the hyperbole is strong with this one, talk about "logic and reason" when you have zero evidence to support your case.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Chaz