Fear of women body in modern videogames

[Hurlshort]

 

If it's possible to derive some real value from this thread, is anyone up for extracting/analysing the predominant themes in the viewpoints made so far?

Gaming needs women, so the games should be more welcoming to them.

 

Or something like that.

 

 

That's actually a perfect synopsis.

 

I love gaming.  I want more people to embrace gaming, because it is good for my hobby.  Therefore I don't want games to alienate an entire gender.  Pretty simple.  

 

I don't play games for boobs, so it is a pretty simple thing to give up, honestly.

[Malcador]

Debatable that more people 'embracing' games enhances the hobby any to be honest, heh.

[Bos_hybrid]

Are we rping BSN now?

 

[Katphood]

No, not really.  It's a mediocre game that happens to have a sex kitten with a chainsaw as the main character.

But how can it be a mediocre game when the main character is a sex kitten with a chainsaw?!

[Chaz]

 

 

If it's possible to derive some real value from this thread, is anyone up for extracting/analysing the predominant themes in the viewpoints made so far?

Gaming needs women, so the games should be more welcoming to them.

 

Or something like that.

 

 

That's actually a perfect synopsis.

 

I love gaming.  I want more people to embrace gaming, because it is good for my hobby.  Therefore I don't want games to alienate an entire gender.  Pretty simple.  

 

I don't play games for boobs, so it is a pretty simple thing to give up, honestly.

 

 

A ridiculous notion that characters with big breasts (and we're not even talking about nudity here) would alienate an entire gender. I mean more than half of the posts have been plain trolling on this thread but are you for real?

 

Not to mention that the whole "entire gender" beign alienated is not even close, just a vocal minority of feminists or what have you and the internet white knights that will unquestioningly support them by default, no matter if they're right or wrong.

 

So you either don't have boobs in games or you offend an entire gender? Ever heard of a false dichotomy? Thank god you're not the one making the games

Edited June 8, 2013 by Chaz

[Agiel]

 

That's kinda what I'm talking about. I mean this can't really drag on much longer. Hopefully something must be distillable from the smush.

Well, I found out about a B-movie featuring Sean Connery that I intend to watch so it wasn't a complete waste.

 

 

Made by the same guy who made Deliverance, and nearly ruined his career in the process.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Agiel

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

If it's possible to derive some real value from this thread, is anyone up for extracting/analysing the predominant themes in the viewpoints made so far?

Gaming needs women, so the games should be more welcoming to them.

 

Or something like that.

 

 

That's actually a perfect synopsis.

 

I love gaming.  I want more people to embrace gaming, because it is good for my hobby.  Therefore I don't want games to alienate an entire gender.  Pretty simple.  

 

I don't play games for boobs, so it is a pretty simple thing to give up, honestly.

 

 

A ridiculous notion that characters with big breasts (and we're not even talking about nudity here) would alienate an entire gender. I mean more than half of the posts have been plain trolling on this thread but are you for real?

 

Not to mention that the whole "entire gender" beign alienated is not even close, just a vocal minority of feminists or what have you and the internet white knights that will unquestioningly support them by default, no matter if they're right or wrong.

 

So you either don't have boobs in games or you offend an entire gender? Ever heard of a false dichotomy? Thank god you're not the one making the games

 

 

Now now Chaz lets be careful when we insult a respected and reasonable member of the community. Especially when you don't understand the context and history of this debate

Hurlshot  is being very serious, what he says also makes sense to a certain degree as there are people who are opposed to the objectification of women characters. For me I am an admirer of the female form, I am not talking about just breasts but the entire look that female characters present. I think we need more Isabella and less Cadegund around party members in PE.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

 That's actually a perfect synopsis.

 

I love gaming.  I want more people to embrace gaming, because it is good for my hobby.  Therefore I don't want games to alienate an entire gender.  Pretty simple.  

 

I don't play games for boobs, so it is a pretty simple thing to give up, honestly.

 

 

A ridiculous notion that characters with big breasts (and we're not even talking about nudity here) would alienate an entire gender. I mean more than half of the posts have been plain trolling on this thread but are you for real?

 

Not to mention that the whole "entire gender" beign alienated is not even close, just a vocal minority of feminists or what have you and the internet white knights that will unquestioningly support them by default, no matter if they're right or wrong.

 

So you either don't have boobs in games or you offend an entire gender? Ever heard of a false dichotomy? Thank god you're not the one making the games

 

 

But dude, what the hell? Depictions of gigantic boobs will... well... pretty likely not harm anybody. On the other hand, not depicting gigantic boobs will not do any more harm, either.

I see little point in arguing whether big boobs are good or bad for a game. Even if their size has no effect whatsoever about how women are perceived, the game will be not an ounce better (and, I'm led to believe, will not sell better) because it includes **** bigger than their owner's head.

So if there is no actual loss by ditching them, I think it is really irrational to bitch about it. Not to mention the fact that even the most staunch anti-feminist can probably see the advantages of not having to listen to the shrill shrieks of those pesky wimmynz.

[obyknven]

If characters with big breasts would alienate an entire gender why nobody don't worried about this in times of Leisure Suit Larry 1 - 7?

. 

 

Thought i can be too tolerant, at least this elf girl from Russian game (many East European developers fulfill own games by sexy characters, and often they forced by American publishers censure everything for US editions ) looks not too alien for me  .

[Hurlshort]

I don't know a lot of female gamers.  I do know a lot of females that dabble in games here and there, my wife included.  I can tell you without a doubt that if I showed them this picture:

 

 

They would have no interest in playing the game.  So that is bad marketing, bad art design, and bad for the game.  They are limiting the audience for no good reason at all.  It is juvenile.  They might have the most revolutionary game play ever created, but it crippled itself by choosing this art design.

 

Now that is fine if this is a niche title trying to appeal to a small audience.  But the majority of games should be broadening their player base, not limiting themselves to fulfill some juvenile fantasies.

 

The newest Tomb Raider was played by a couple of my female co-workers.  The fact that they went with a more realistic body, even if she was toned and had a lot of moisture shots, went a long way towards getting them to buy the game.  Next we just need to cut back on the gratuitous violence and we'll have a grown up industry.  

Edited June 8, 2013 by Hurlshot

[Drowsy Emperor]

Maybe, but on the other hand I'm not going to play the new TR game precisely because its obviously targeting an audience that I'm not a part of. And that has nothing to do with Lara's boobs and everything to do with a forced attempt to appeal to everyone. The same thing killed Mass Effect for me and many other games.

 

They may be games for "everyone", but they're not games for me. I find the new TR's gratuitous violence and the whole "from (practically) rape victim to avenger" more juvenile on the whole than the silly and carefree nonsense of the old Tomb Raiders. So what if she had large boobs? It was an innocent game about playing a female Indiana Jones, not a growing up story of a traumatised girl. 

 

Why should games be so concerned with broadening their player base? What's wrong with making a game for me and people like me? 

 

You make it sound like a crime that some of us want to enjoy games, akin to those we enjoyed in our youth but with the benefit of new technology - not someone's attempt at making the perfect McBurger that they'll fill with whatever they think is socially relevant enough for the mass audience to lap it up.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

 

 

Why should games be so concerned with broadening their player base? What's wrong with making a game for me and people like me? 

 

 

 

Ah now you have asked an important question " why be concerned with broadening the  base? "

This is simply about the return on investment that shareholders expect when it comes to large corporations. Large companies can't just make profit, there profit needs to increase each year or why would people like fund managers invest in that particular industry. It does make sense and this won't change. So rather focus on games developed by smaller companies that don't have the pressure of increased profitability every year. These smaller companies don't have to be so concerned with growing the customer base

 

 

[Chaz]

But dude, what the hell? Depictions of gigantic boobs will... well... pretty likely not harm anybody. On the other hand, not depicting gigantic boobs will not do any more harm, either.

I see little point in arguing whether big boobs are good or bad for a game. Even if their size has no effect whatsoever about how women are perceived, the game will be not an ounce better (and, I'm led to believe, will not sell better) because it includes **** bigger than their owner's head.

So if there is no actual loss by ditching them, I think it is really irrational to bitch about it. Not to mention the fact that even the most staunch anti-feminist can probably see the advantages of not having to listen to the shrill shrieks of those pesky wimmynz.

 

 

It's not about ditching them or not ditching them, it's about letting the developers make the game they want to make and not chastise them because you don't happen to like their art style, not all games are supposed to be E for everyone. And Dragon Crown is an extreme example, while many games have beutiful famele characters the great majority are not so exagerated, unless their are going for a cartoony or surreal style and the guys making the game should not be apologizing like they commited a ****ing crime.

 

 

I don't know a lot of female gamers.  I do know a lot of females that dabble in games here and there, my wife included.  I can tell you without a doubt that if I showed them this picture:

 

They would have no interest in playing the game.  So that is bad marketing, bad art design, and bad for the game.  They are limiting the audience for no good reason at all.  It is juvenile.  They might have the most revolutionary game play ever created, but it crippled itself by choosing this art design.

 

Now that is fine if this is a niche title trying to appeal to a small audience.  But the majority of games should be broadening their player base, not limiting themselves to fulfill some juvenile fantasies.

 

The newest Tomb Raider was played by a couple of my female co-workers.  The fact that they went with a more realistic body, even if she was toned and had a lot of moisture shots, went a long way towards getting them to buy the game.  Next we just need to cut back on the gratuitous violence and we'll have a grown up industry.  

 

Look, I disagree, some of the most played games in the world are  World of Warcraft, League of Legends and World of Tanks, we all know that tanks are totally hot and nobody complains about them, and as for WoW and LoL, both games have beautiful female characters and those games are suuuuper popular, and people LIKE those characters as they are, there's fanart all over the freaking internet.

 

And what is this new "juvenile fantasy" nonsense argument? Yeah, games are almost always fantasy fullfilment experiences and they are juvenile , they are a hobby to have fun, they are not serious bussines, unless you are a developer. What the hell people? are we now supposed to be embarrased that we like to enjoy our fantasies on top of beign embarrased that some of us happen to like attractive female characters?

Edited June 8, 2013 by Chaz

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

Why should games be so concerned with broadening their player base? What's wrong with making a game for me and people like me? 

 

 

 

Ah now you have asked an important question " why be concerned with broadening the  base? "

This is simply about the return on investment that shareholders expect when it comes to large corporations. Large companies can't just make profit, there profit needs to increase each year or why would people like fund managers invest in that particular industry. It does make sense and this won't change. So rather focus on games developed by smaller companies that don't have the pressure of increased profitability every year. These smaller companies don't have to be so concerned with growing the customer base

 

 

 

 

Of course. It was more of a rhetorical question. I think there is still space for smaller companies to deliver any niche product and make a profit - if there wasn't there would be no kickstarter and several PC genres would have already died out.

 

I'm not really hoping for anything from the big companies that make AAA titles. On rare occasions its possible to play something cool from them (like Mirror's Edge), but, in general, I'm done with their products.

[Drowsy Emperor]

As for female gamers: I've tried to bring my girlfriend into the hobby with more or less success. Like so many female gamers she isn't really much into reflex heavy games or strategy games, preferring adventures, RPG's and other more cinematic experiences that can be played at a slower pace. 

 

Now I'd like her to enjoy the same games I do but I wouldn't bend over backwards to make every genre accessible to her. What would be the point? They'd probably lose the elements I enjoy in the process and she already has games that service her needs.

 

Its only natural that our interests aren't the same and its quite enough that they overlap enough that we can play certain games together.

[Sannom]

A ridiculous notion that characters with big breasts (and we're not even talking about nudity here) would alienate an entire gender. I mean more than half of the posts have been plain trolling on this thread but are you for real?

If we're talking about Dragon Crown, that thing is more likely to repel both genders. It's so exagerrated as to become grotesque. The poor sorceress is so ugly, she gives sexual favors to a skeleton! And it's not even an animated one!

 

As for the OP : you're paranoïd and you remind me of some idiot who whined because the olympic uniforms stripped all their feminity from women and that they should be better designed, with more room for the curves, comfort and efficiency be damned.

[BruceVC]

 

A ridiculous notion that characters with big breasts (and we're not even talking about nudity here) would alienate an entire gender. I mean more than half of the posts have been plain trolling on this thread but are you for real?

If we're talking about Dragon Crown, that thing is more likely to repel both genders. It's so exagerrated as to become grotesque. The poor sorceress is so ugly, she gives sexual favors to a skeleton! And it's not even an animated one!

 

As for the OP : you're paranoïd and you remind me of some idiot who whined because the olympic uniforms stripped all their feminity from women and that they should be better designed, with more room for the curves, comfort and efficiency be damned.

 

 

" she gives sexual favors to a skeleton"   that's funny

[Keyrock]

If characters with big breasts would alienate an entire gender why nobody don't worried about this in times of Leisure Suit Larry 1 - 7?

. 

 

 

 

There actually was quite the uproar when Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of Lounge Lizards (LSL1) came out.  Ironically, it's that very uproar that helped launch the franchise.  When it first launched, LSL1 sold quite poorly and it looked like that was going to be the end of the series right there.  Then rumors and accusations got thrown around about how shocking and offensive and pornographic the game was.  Media outlets ran with it without doing their due diligence (Leisure Suit Larry was NEVER a porn game), as is customary for them (because who needs research, right?), and the attention created a buzz which spurred the sales of the game to take off.  Long story short, the game wound up selling very well in the long run and started a beloved and very successful franchise.

 

You have to have tittays/boobies/knockers/honkers/bazongas/headlights in Leisure Suit Larry, it's crucial to the game.  In fact, it's pretty much what the entire game is about.  Leisure Suit Larry is about a horny lovable loser with a wildly inflated opinion of himself on a quest to get laid.  That's the premise of every single real Larry game (read: LSL1-LSL7).  Larry meets a wildly attractive (usually voluptuous) woman.  The wildly attractive woman won't give Larry the time of day.  Larry finds out what she desires and figures if he gives her what she wants she'll give him what he wants (nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean?  say no more).  Larry sets out to acquire what the wildly attractive woman wants.  Hilarious antics ensue.  That's the script of every real Larry game.  Sexual desire and the female body are the central theme of the game.

 

The point is this, I feel it's quite fine to have cleavage, ass, even full frontal nudity or straight up sex scenes in a game where it fits appropriately with the plot, setting, and/or theme of the game.  What irks me is when cleavage and ass get shoehorned into a game, crammed in there with no sense or reason other than attempting to entice the horny guy beating off in his mom's basement demographic.  I don't find it offensive, I just think it's cheap and trite.  If you have a character who is a harlot, then by all means have her be falling out of her dress, it's how she makes her business.  Likewise, I have no problem with a scantily clad amazon who relies of quickness, agility, and the ability to quickly climb trees when hunting or fighting for defense, rather than armor, or a sorceress who relies on magic for protection and might find the seduction and/or distraction factor of LOOK AT ME BOOBZ of greater advantage than a cured hunk of leather between her and a sharp blade.  On the other hand, trying to pass off a chain bikini as "armor" is just plain ridiculous.  Boob plate is a little better, since it actually does put a piece of steel between you and the aforementioned sharp blade, but the very nature of its design would cause blows to deflect toward your sternum (read: bad for your health), rather than away from your body (read: good for your health).  

Edited June 8, 2013 by Keyrock

[Humanoid]

It's notable however that Larry was preceded at the studio by the prozaically named "Softporn Adventure", with Roberta Williams herself famously in the buff on the cover. Terminology aside though, the point is correct that it was a thematic fit.

 

Sierra also famously sold more hint books than actual copies of Larry 1. There's the obvious piracy angle, though I wonder how much of it is from the embarrassment factor (though the difficulty of Sierra games seems to have overcome that...).

 

 

Two-leaf clovers need some more love in this thread.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Humanoid

[Keyrock]

It's one of the more infamous box covers in video game history:

 

 

Roberta is on the far right, for those wondering.  She was quite attractive back in the day.  More importantly, she created one of the most iconic and beloved video game franchises ever.  Another fun fact, this was so far back, they weren't even called Sierra yet.

 

Sierra On-Line, I miss you so much!

 

/sobs uncontrollably

Edited June 8, 2013 by Keyrock

[BruceVC]

It's one of the more infamous box covers in video game history:

 

 

Roberta is on the far right, for those wondering.  She was quite attractive back in the day.  More importantly, she created one of the most iconic and beloved video game franchises ever.  Another fun fact, this was so far back, they weren't even called Sierra yet.

 

Sierra On-Line, I miss you so much!

 

/sobs uncontrollably

 

Wow that is interesting, I thought you were joking at first

[Keyrock]

Here she is on another box cover, this one significantly more tame:

 

 

Check out those astounding hardware requirements: "Supports EGA, CGA, MCGA, VGA, and Hercules monochrome graphic cards".  VGA!?  What sort of billionaire has one of those?

[BruceVC]

Here she is on another box cover, this one significantly more tame:

 

 

Check out those astounding hardware requirements: "Supports EGA, CGA, MCGA, VGA, and Hercules monochrome graphic cards".  VGA!?  What sort of billionaire has one of those?

 

"What sort of billionaire has one of those"

 

Okay that's line of the week  

[Humanoid]

MCGA is the one that's always confused me. It was so rare, such that I've never seen it in action, but 256 colours (as I saw from the MPS game startup menus - remember having to configure your settings every time you started a game?)! Never knew what it was until the advent of Wikipedia.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Humanoid

[Meshugger]

I dunno about MCGA, but remember how awesome Larry was on a 286 with a VGA-card. Those pixellated tittays, hubba bubba!