Windows 8.1

[Walsingham]

I feel your rage, man.

 

I'm going to go off on a massive tangent now, and at the least sap your fury.

 

I'm going to do it by suggesting that the problem is that these are op systems and architectures written by committees of people who have never had a good servant. They think the ideal thing is - as Baba' said - are your nanny. But who in their right mind wants a bloody nanny? What you want is a polite, quietly competent _servant_. It pays attention to what you want, and it does that. At no point EVER should it tell YOU what to do.

 

[babaganoosh13]

HP is going to look into if the laptop is compatible with Windows 7. Will get back to me tomorrow.

Windows thanked me for the feedback I gave them on Twitter. Well, they thanked me for my Windows 9 suggestion about making it XP SP4. Not the other ones.

 

EDIT: Maybe they included the other ones in with the one tweet, and they just didn't want to type it over again. I had excellent suggestions about closing apps the same way from Windows 7 and back; and menu bars from XP and back.

Edited July 1, 2013 by babaganoosh13

[syn2083]

At first I really didnt enjoy windows 8, however ive become quite fond of it, minus the searching. Searching is flat broken for anything beyond installed 'apps' really.

 

With minor tweaks you can make it into a more than capable desktop OS and never lay eyes on metro *unless you use snapping, which can actually be real handy*

 

One very simple addition that I really really like is the monitor spanning task bar with monitor specific program icon placement. Its actually super helpful for highly multi-tasked environments and sanity. Drivers originally were quite an issue but at this point are not an issue unless you run very old tech, or something very obscure, but thats on the company who made it really.

 

Storage spaces is actually great if you use it, and allows for decent redundancy and drive pooling.Memory performance and reclamation is quite improved even from win7 and compared to XP (which really had none realistically) is wonderful.

 

I have thus far found w8 to be supremely stable, 0 BSODs/crashes. Only issue was self inflicted and using PC Refresh was perfect.

 

IS w8 perfect? Not even close. Metro UI for a desktop machine is ridiculous, and the argument that you need to tweak it to get a 'usable' desktop OS has some good points. Beyond that, what OS when launched didn't require 'tweaks' for power users, or to be more like the previous generation?

 

Lots of people pine for the tried and true. There is merit and value there, just as when XP launched it was demonized, hated, skewed skewered and roasted. nothing was better than w95, or w98. 98 was the epitome of OS construction! XP was trash in comparison, suffered huge stability issues, and wasnt nearly as polished! Then you have those gate OSs that really ARE garbage (windowsME....gag, Vista, W8 partially).

 

Windows 8 if you cut it in half is perfect, metro on a mobile platform, and desktop on a desktop. Unfortunately MS made it difficult to see that for a common user, and power users prefer the nostalgia. Thats fine, but W8 is the XP of now. In 5 years people will laud the customibility of it, how you can install it on your desktop and synch easily to your tablet and walk. Its all perspective.

 

Will MS listen? I dont see why not, at first in smaller ways, later on in larger. Just as they did from 3.1 -> 95 then 98, then they try ME and throw up and regroup for XP XP takes a beating and a half and they press on and use the most stable core they have ever made to construct vista, overall vista is to unpolished, so they regear again and provide w7 which was hated, and now is very well regarded (the biggest gripe being menu bars, so seriously..) and now windows 8, no big deal.

 

We learn, we evolve, we adjust.

 

Just wait until we all have leads attached to our iris's and become the cloud, win-eye 2120, the damn transparency is more glassy than 2117! They removed the offline folder recorder for dreams and made it into an external dump!

 

Such is life.

[Spider]

so they regear again and provide w7 which was hated, and now is very well regarded (the biggest gripe being menu bars, so seriously..) and now windows 8, no big deal.

 

When was windows 7 ever hated? The only reaction I ever saw to W7 is that it was Vista done right. Apart from a select few who still preferred XP, in any circle I frequent, W7 has always been praised. From day 1.

[Humanoid]

The only thing I hated about Win7 was all the hoops that have to be jumped through to clean-install an upgrade licence, needing to either do some registry hacking or doing a double install (i.e. reinstalling immediately, effectively upgrading from 7 to 7). Upgrading to XP, all the installation process asked was for the user to put the old version CD in the drive for a moment.

[babaganoosh13]

I could see what they were doing with XP shortly after it came out. With it being based on 2000 architecture instead of 95 which still had some DOS attached to it, and the limitations that went with that.

 

I of course see some potential with 8. It is clearly designed to run multiple programs at once. The main problems with it is: A lot of the time, I don't want to run multiple programs at once. Usually when I do, it's just the calculator or Paint while I'm surfing. Someone could design a program that helps run other programs. That is the only real good, and potential I see in that for Win8.

 

The problem is their absolute insistance on Metro, and gimping the Desktop in favour of it no matter what you are using. If they were to have a dedicated Desktop that did everything the previous versions of Windows had (ie a Start Menu, all programs running are shown in the tool bar or task manager [which some of the metro ones are not I've found,]...) but add in the added easier multitasking features plus whatever else Windows 8 is supposed to do better that is in no way, shape or form just a Metro function: It probably wouldn't be so bad. Win 8.1 doesn't do this. It just makes going to Metro a tiny bit easier (plus the update thing.) It still treats desktop users like a second class citizen. This seems clearly to be a tablet/smart phone operating system, with the other stuff added in for desktops/laptops to try to justify the cost of developing it. This is why it deserves to fail. Unless you have a touch screen monitor, there is NO benefit to Metro, that one couldn't get in a desktop mode.

 

In fact, Metro should still have a xlose button in the top, right hand part of the screen IMO. Closing programs shouldn't be annoying with many extra steps. I'm looking at you too, Apple.

 

Oh yes, and don't block my programs for compatibilty issues. Let me know there could be one, and let me decide for myself. Especially when you are a flawed piece of garbage yourself.

[babaganoosh13]

You can make many comparisons to Windows 8 with the XBox 180.

 

The genesis for both things are the same: Microsoft controlling the consumer. The difference is, Sony and Nintendo could very easily kick their butts in the console market. They had to turn face even though they clearly didn't want to.

 

It's a bigger deal switching operating systems. When was the last time you went to a store and picked up a Linux laptop? It's even a bugger trying to find a new laptop with Windows 7 now using the traditional in-store method. There certainly wasn't one within 50km of here that we could find. People seem to be scooping them up to avoid the Win8 ones. You can still easily avoid it for desktops if you don't buy from big-box stores, which I advised my dad of doing when he bought his last fall.

 

At the end of the day, all you need to know is this: Even though my mom has this brand new, powerful laptop that should knock the socks off of anything else here; she is still using her old laptop with a couple of broken keys, a busted USB port and a finicky touch pad, because it still does what she wants it to do; but will be almost useless for her schooling in the fall.

Edited July 1, 2013 by babaganoosh13

[syn2083]

 

so they regear again and provide w7 which was hated, and now is very well regarded (the biggest gripe being menu bars, so seriously..) and now windows 8, no big deal.

 

When was windows 7 ever hated? The only reaction I ever saw to W7 is that it was Vista done right. Apart from a select few who still preferred XP, in any circle I frequent, W7 has always been praised. From day 1.

 

 

Praised, and scorned:

 

http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2009/06/windows-7-reality-check-it-can-still-suck-big-time/

 

the comments mostly are what to pay attention to. Its easy to forget after 4-5 years and a new OS that generates a lot of hate. w7 was no different than any of the other OS launches, loved, hated, defended, thrown away.

 

Some more examples from the fun times, the end of days, the beginning of a new chapter and all the hideous and unforgivable problems of 7!

 

http://cybernetnews.com/windows-7-sucks-ill-stick-with-vista/  (shockingly a very common statement at the time, seriously, that was insane whoever of you said screw it 7, I want vista!).............

 

http://gizmodo.com/5150284/7-things-we-hate-about-windows-7  the comments here bring up another of the common rants, better than vista but still garbage!

 

http://my.opera.com/Zentarien/blog/2010/05/12/why-all-the-love-for-windows-7-it-still-sucks random blog filled with vitriol, also not uncommon

 

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/reviews/windows_7_review?page=9 if you care to dig through the old comments at the bottom, the review is positive though in parts silly, but the comments show that time tested X old is good, YZ new is bad! (in this case mostly XP go go go! vista sucks and so does 7!)

 

I am not trying to say that windows 8 is any kind of god send, awesome amazing life changing OS. Its not, in many ways for a regular person at home its not great at all and is simply confusing. MS superiorly bungled in many regards there. Outside of that (which is a huge area, point acknowledged) it is actually a really good operating system. If MS did a better job of desktop access, and in the intro minutes explained how to get to and use it properly it would have been a very different story.

 

As it is, if you love w7, thats great, its a very reliable system. If you love XP, by now ridiculously stable due to age and the years of support, but dated, wildly inefficient in some major ways and support is dropping/dropped for certain things.

 

@babaganoosh13 /snip

 

You bring up and point out some excellent things. and I for the most part completely agree.

 

The biggest problem w8 has is that Microsoft was overtly heavy handed in forcing metro. on a desktop/laptop it really should have been a symbiotic beast at the least, if not a known baby step into the new tile layout. Create a default snap of Metro on the desktop thats easily disabled, a short intro and instructions and a 'normal' desktop along with it.

 

They failed to remotely do this and especially the older (no offense to many of our parents) users are typically more confused == hateful as a result.

 

Some of them end up loving metro and how 'easy' the apps are. Some hate it.

 

In the end MS is clearly getting the hint with 8.1 and trying to add some ways to make it a bit more older feeling. Its not nearly enough yet, but system shock to everyone else who has actually adopted w8 isnt necessarily a smart move at this point either. For those of us using 8 and enjoying it, theres some good feature add in 8.1 and will help round it out more, which is fantastic, in time it will become a stepping stone (imo) to w9 or whatever new monicker they dream up, perhaps more letters to distance from w8 comparisons outright.

 

So bottom line, I really enjoy w8 and use it every day. Work has a mix of 7/8 and either performs equally well for the job, with some software exceptions (very old platforms we use that cannot use IE10 or fall down with someof the w8 changes) but thats vendor issue and not MS per se. Otherwise, if people really hate on it, or cant use it, thats cool. Not trying to force it on, or down anyones throat. We all gotta eat, but we dont need to all eat the same thing right?

Edited July 1, 2013 by syn2083

[LadyCrimson]

As a more casual, yet still kind of control-freakish user, what I dislike about every incarnation of Windows is the seeming way they make it harder (or at least more exasperating) to find, do, and use things I commonly want to access. Bury them under a lot more menus, a lot more mouse-clicks, obscure or hidden folders with funky, unrelated/non-nonsensical and unintuitive titles that make it difficult for me to figure out where the heck they are , etc. etc.

 

All in the name of idiot-accident-proofing, or prettification, or something. I don't know. Whatever the reason, it farking annoys the carp out of me.

[syn2083]

agreed, that is quite vexing

[babaganoosh13]

My favorite feature so far of Windows 8: Removing the print even/odd numbered pages only feature.

 

I've actually got to download apps in order to do a function that has been available for as long as I can remember!!!!!

 

Because typing each and every odd or even page in a document is feasible, especially when it is 35 or so pages like one of the horse racing programs my dad always prints out when he goes to the track.

 

Adobe is going to add it in themselves eventually thanks to this person: http://forums.adobe.com/message/5293605

 

Oh yes, and custom printing page numbers is only available in metro mode.

[babaganoosh13]

They should fire Steve Ballmer, and make me the new CEO. Here's what I would do:

 

The newest version of Windows would look like this:

 

Look at that start menu! Everything is right there! Plus, your desktop is voluntarily clear of as much clutter as you would like. Or, you can fill it up too - it's up to you!

 

It would feature all of the graphical and processing upgrades that are in 8.0 and 8.1, but without the mandatory metro. If you would like metro, you are free to install it as well on top of the desktop.

 

EDIT: Plus you are free to print even and/or odd pages of any document without having to type them all out!

 

For the X-box, I will take it into a bold new direction. I would release a new base model, and chop $125 off the price, because we're using DDR3 RAM instead of DDR5. It would look like this:

Oh yeah, and I'd get rid of mandatory Kinect too. That's the other way it would be able to save a bunch of money. Plus it would have a more vibrant digital market place with all of the games for it being available for digital download. And sales too, also the regular prices will reflect the current market value.

 

I know these are bold, new ideas: But I would have the courage to implement them, and take a boat load of money for doing so.

 

I guarantee they would be better off if they did.

 

EDIT: Also, our developers would be free to release their games DRM-free. Especially the ones that we are not giving money to and are just using one of our licenses.

Edited July 2, 2013 by babaganoosh13

[Walsingham]

The problem is a social one. Boards are chosen as a boys club. Shouty ****wits like Ballmer get chops.

 

The solution is smarter investors who get the shrieking abdabs when they see a shouty ****wit at the helm.

[Raithe]

http://youtu.be/X0fsyb-ttcw

[kirottu]

How does one close a program/app/window in metro?

[syn2083]

top middle you get a hand icon, click and drag to the bottom to go back to start, upper left corner goes to desktop, bottom left start screen, upper right/bottom right charm sidebar

[Drowsy Emperor]

The easier alternative is unplugging your pc

 

but look on the bright side, at least it isn't:

 

XBOX, CLOSE WINDOWS PROGRAM

Edited July 3, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[greylord]

 

 

I wonder who of you guys have actually spent much time with W8?

 

I hear a lot of complaining but it's really not a problem at all once you get used to it.

And what's the added value except being slightly more effective with SSDs and memory?

 

 

I'd like to hear the answer to this question as well.

 

Upgrading carries a lot of potential driver and compatibility related issues that haven't yet been exposed through regular use. Certain costs are incurred as well.

 

A new above average configuration today runs programs and games at top speeds (my 6 year old machine is pretty fast, I can only imagine what a newer PC with a better CPU and SSD is like) on the generally stable Windows 7.

 

Why would anyone need/want Windows 8 in the foreseeable future?

 

 

I got a spare laptop when Win8 first came out.  Curse my unlucky stars.  I've been using it a lot.  You think compatibility is bad with Vista...NOTHING works with win8 (okay, that's an exaggeration, but really...I think half of what they did was see what worked with WinXP, then Win7, and say...let's break the compatibility mode for anyone who doesn't have ultimate...and then we'll only break half the compatibility modes.

 

After using the start interface, I'm not certain what all the complaints are about with the Metro window or whatever they want to call it.  I like it, it's sort of a cross between the desktop and start bar, except you can zoom out and zoom in to specific panels if you want.  I don't mind that so much...I do mind that it's harder to shut programs down and configure it as you like.  In addition, even with Administrative privileges it does NOT allow you to shut down programs you want to.  Instead, if it doesn't agree with your decision, it will say shutting off such and such can cause instability and then offer to either shutdown, or let it run.  I'm the friggin admin...I should be allowed to shut down what I think should be shut down and let the consequences follow...especially since I tracked some of their non-compatibility with specific programs designed to stop certain types of programs from running...and other such nonsense.  In addition, some of their "necessary" programs running in the background are stealthily eating my memory and other areas...which upsets me to no end, especially since some of them serve no other purpose then to open certain other programs should you desire or connect in through to the internet with a program.

 

In otherwords, they made Win8 more intrusive, less able to be modified, and basically one big ad to try to convince you to buy new software.

 

It still works with some games normally, others if you are willing to play around with the compatibility settings, and then...you just have the annoying portions.

 

So, whether it has a start bar or not doesn't matter as much to me as a LOT of other problems I have with Win8.  The new search that for the control panel...hopefully it's easier then the old search for the control panel Win8 has had...and their idea of trying to combine MSconfig, Taskbar, and Ctrl+alt+del is nothing but fail in my book.

 

My advice...stay as far far far away from Win8 as possible.  Get an Apple if you have to, but stay away from Win8.

[greylord]

 

 

So bottom line, I really enjoy w8 and use it every day. Work has a mix of 7/8 and either performs equally well for the job, with some software exceptions (very old platforms we use that cannot use IE10 or fall down with someof the w8 changes) but thats vendor issue and not MS per se. Otherwise, if people really hate on it, or cant use it, thats cool. Not trying to force it on, or down anyones throat. We all gotta eat, but we dont need to all eat the same thing right?

 

 

Just wanted to say, from what I've narrowed it down from, in many Ways Win8 builds on Win7 and SHOULD (should being the key word) be just as compatible with programs as Win7.  MS seems to have introduced some weird protocols (anti-piracy or something) that actually prevents some programs from running right, even with compatibility on.  I have NO idea who the idiot at MS was that thought such a move was such a good idea.  Even worse, unless you hack their program (which WILL invalidate their agreement with you if I read right) and disable the way they made the items (if you try to shut it down without hacking, it will give you the option to either leave it on and keep going, or shutdown, no other options that I can see), there is no way to turn that program off.

 

Which is sad, you SHOULD have compatibility, but because of stupid decisions on MS's part, they decreased the compatibility for absolutely no good reason on a program that actually HAS the ability to be compatible, but is prevented from BEING compatible because they programed it to purposefully NOT be compatible with some items.

 

But if you don't mind hacking the program out, pretty much everything should still be compatible...just be aware that you'll be voiding your license with MS if you do so...

 

Hence why I haven't and instead still have a WinXP and Win7 machine for those programs...which sucks because Win8 COULD do it if MS wasn't so stupid with how they've handled it.

 

PS: AS for the interface, as stated previously, once you get over the initial shock, it isn't bad and there are some good advantages to it, especially if you have enough money to get a touch screen for your desktop or laptop.  Even without them however...it's still useful as I can arrange it like the desktop, but with the ability to zoom out and in I have a LOT more space for a LOT more icons if I so desire...and don't have to clutter the actual desktop with them if I don't want.

Edited July 4, 2013 by greylord

[greylord]

How does one close a program/app/window in metro?

 

 

I'm not certain I understand the question.  Unless it's a "vital" program as determined by MS (not the admin) you close it the same way you would in previous versions of Windows.

 

If it refuses, you can always ctrl+alt+del it just like you could always do previously. 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are asking?

[syn2083]

 

 

 

So bottom line, I really enjoy w8 and use it every day. Work has a mix of 7/8 and either performs equally well for the job, with some software exceptions (very old platforms we use that cannot use IE10 or fall down with someof the w8 changes) but thats vendor issue and not MS per se. Otherwise, if people really hate on it, or cant use it, thats cool. Not trying to force it on, or down anyones throat. We all gotta eat, but we dont need to all eat the same thing right?

 

 

Just wanted to say, from what I've narrowed it down from, in many Ways Win8 builds on Win7 and SHOULD (should being the key word) be just as compatible with programs as Win7.  MS seems to have introduced some weird protocols (anti-piracy or something) that actually prevents some programs from running right, even with compatibility on.  I have NO idea who the idiot at MS was that thought such a move was such a good idea.  Even worse, unless you hack their program (which WILL invalidate their agreement with you if I read right) and disable the way they made the items (if you try to shut it down without hacking, it will give you the option to either leave it on and keep going, or shutdown, no other options that I can see), there is no way to turn that program off.

 

Which is sad, you SHOULD have compatibility, but because of stupid decisions on MS's part, they decreased the compatibility for absolutely no good reason on a program that actually HAS the ability to be compatible, but is prevented from BEING compatible because they programed it to purposefully NOT be compatible with some items.

 

But if you don't mind hacking the program out, pretty much everything should still be compatible...just be aware that you'll be voiding your license with MS if you do so...

 

Hence why I haven't and instead still have a WinXP and Win7 machine for those programs...which sucks because Win8 COULD do it if MS wasn't so stupid with how they've handled it.

 

PS: AS for the interface, as stated previously, once you get over the initial shock, it isn't bad and there are some good advantages to it, especially if you have enough money to get a touch screen for your desktop or laptop.  Even without them however...it's still useful as I can arrange it like the desktop, but with the ability to zoom out and in I have a LOT more space for a LOT more icons if I so desire...and don't have to clutter the actual desktop with them if I don't want.

 

 

I've only really run into one instance where I couldnt kill a program (even with a force pid kill from cmd) otherwise ive been able to do just about anything. Typically it may require adding the user account to higher integrated security tiers but thats about it in my case.

 

I also havent had to hack any of my programs to get them to run so I am not sure what programs you are speaking of, nor use compat mode really.

 

The only thing I initially had issues with was the drivers for nvidia hd sound and also creative labs drivers, they would sometimes crash or not recognize audio devices. A couple weeks in that was remedied however.

 

Beyond that all of my work apps, personal or games have worked fine -shrug

 

even running a VM to host an old win2k3 server has worked fine and actually memory use overall dropped with a more stable platform for it, so thats been great.

Edited July 4, 2013 by syn2083

[greylord]

 

 

 

 

So bottom line, I really enjoy w8 and use it every day. Work has a mix of 7/8 and either performs equally well for the job, with some software exceptions (very old platforms we use that cannot use IE10 or fall down with someof the w8 changes) but thats vendor issue and not MS per se. Otherwise, if people really hate on it, or cant use it, thats cool. Not trying to force it on, or down anyones throat. We all gotta eat, but we dont need to all eat the same thing right?

 

 

Just wanted to say, from what I've narrowed it down from, in many Ways Win8 builds on Win7 and SHOULD (should being the key word) be just as compatible with programs as Win7.  MS seems to have introduced some weird protocols (anti-piracy or something) that actually prevents some programs from running right, even with compatibility on.  I have NO idea who the idiot at MS was that thought such a move was such a good idea.  Even worse, unless you hack their program (which WILL invalidate their agreement with you if I read right) and disable the way they made the items (if you try to shut it down without hacking, it will give you the option to either leave it on and keep going, or shutdown, no other options that I can see), there is no way to turn that program off.

 

Which is sad, you SHOULD have compatibility, but because of stupid decisions on MS's part, they decreased the compatibility for absolutely no good reason on a program that actually HAS the ability to be compatible, but is prevented from BEING compatible because they programed it to purposefully NOT be compatible with some items.

 

But if you don't mind hacking the program out, pretty much everything should still be compatible...just be aware that you'll be voiding your license with MS if you do so...

 

Hence why I haven't and instead still have a WinXP and Win7 machine for those programs...which sucks because Win8 COULD do it if MS wasn't so stupid with how they've handled it.

 

PS: AS for the interface, as stated previously, once you get over the initial shock, it isn't bad and there are some good advantages to it, especially if you have enough money to get a touch screen for your desktop or laptop.  Even without them however...it's still useful as I can arrange it like the desktop, but with the ability to zoom out and in I have a LOT more space for a LOT more icons if I so desire...and don't have to clutter the actual desktop with them if I don't want.

 

 

I've only really run into one instance where I couldnt kill a program (even with a force pid kill from cmd) otherwise ive been able to do just about anything. Typically it may require adding the user account to higher integrated security tiers but thats about it in my case.

 

I also havent had to hack any of my programs to get them to run so I am not sure what programs you are speaking of, nor use compat mode really.

 

The only thing I initially had issues with was the drivers for nvidia hd sound and also creative labs drivers, they would sometimes crash or not recognize audio devices. A couple weeks in that was remedied however.

 

Beyond that all of my work apps, personal or games have worked fine -shrug

 

even running a VM to host an old win2k3 server has worked fine and actually memory use overall dropped with a more stable platform for it, so thats been great.

 

 

There are TON of the applications/processes running which refuse to be killed with the Win8 I've been running, which stinks.  I use compat mode a LOT though, as I run programs from the entire gamut of the past several years.  A lot of the engineering and accounting programs which graphically have the drivers working fine, but have win8 running compatibility constriction programs are the ones which are the most serious, hence why I may have the Win8 laptop, but no way our business is going to upgrade.  If MS is so worried about selling their programs or whatever so that they invalidate what we need working for business...well...we skipped vista...we can skip win8 also.

 

On the otherhand, I have to say I haven't had a single problem with drivers yet, all the drivers I've had thus far seem to work wonderfully...different experiences I guess.

[Walsingham]

http://youtu.be/X0fsyb-ttcw

 

I think this review encapsulates all the small crap choices which the design team went for. You can almost hear the requirements focus groups. "Oh, but it has to look cool, and uncluttered. The windows button has too much stuff in it." So they strip it out, and lo and behold they've just annoyed everyone who wasn't at the meeting trying to sound edgy, who just want to be able to admin their bloody machine.

[Nepenthe]

I'm not sure how "uncluttered" and that technicolor vomit of little boxes have to do with one another. Admittedly it's a bit less that in it's computer incarnation, every time I see a windows 8 phone I'm utterly mystified by how anyone could think that messy mosaic is a good idea.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Does anyone know how to make all folders open in a certain view (like list view for example). The OS seems to use different templates for folders and I can't find a single option that will change them all in one stroke.