Update #50: So... Project Eternity!

[Monte Carlo]

* shrugs *

 

I disagree with Sawyer on an even fifty per cent of stuff he comes out / up with. The other fifty per cent I find myself liking a great deal. It all balances out and his comments about BG2 are no exception --- the fifty per cent I agree with are totally on the money (the kidnap plot sucks donkey balls, 75% of the NPCs make my nose bleed). OTOH I like the crazy amount of quests and have pretty much the opposite view on his "dry dialogue" approach. But he's already said that he *knows* he has some pretty niche tastes.

 

Oh, and Helm, BG2 is easily one of my top five PC games of all time. I think it squeaks into the top three, actually. And *drum roll* I'm allowed a nuanced view on it 11+ years after release.

[PrimeJunta]

Whee! Let us dissect the words of Prophet Joshoboam:

 

"CNPCs - Many of their introductions didn't sit well with me and I felt that there were too many who didn't have an equal amount of development given to them. While it was great that so many of them had a ton of quest content, I would have preferred a smaller list of companions with more attention to each one. This is what we said we were going to do at the start of the Kickstarter and it's what we're still planning to do."

 

Agree 100%. More so for BG1. The companions are reduced to a handful of characteristic one-liners + really badly written fan-service "romance" in BG2. I think rose-colored spectacles play a big role here -- I believe BG introduced the whole notion of cRPG companions with personalities into western RPG's, but things have evolved a LOT since then. With companions, I say either go the IWD way and let you roll up a party by yourself, and only give them canned combat barks but no attempt at personality, or go the PS:T way and make them fully-developed characters with deep interactions between each other and you. The BG/2 way was the worst of both worlds; restrictive because it severely limited your party-building ability, but without all that much payoff in story, engagement, and, well, role-playing.

 

Personally, the only companions I didn't actively dislike in BG2 were Keldorn and Yoshimo, and we all know what happened to Yoshimo. Everyone else was just incredibly annoying, which is why I finally succumbed and went with the "multiplayer" exploit to make my own party and shut everyone up.

 

"Being required to find/save Imoen - I didn't like it then and I still don't. I wouldn't make the player rescue an NPC with whom he or she may or may not have a positive relationship. It's a very specific plot point and easy to not do. I understand that a lot of people have no problem with the rescue plot, which is totally fine, but I don't think that particular plot point needs to be repeated in PE."

 

Neutral on this point. Most cRPG's are based on "find the McGuffin," and in this case the McGuffin was a person. No problems with this one. It would've been a lot better had there been some strong motivation established about why I should care about that person, other than general humanitarianism, but eh.

 

"Style of dialogue - I prefer naturalistic -- some would say "dry" -- dialogue. BG2's characters are much more expressive. This is a personal thing and I recognize that most players *don't* like the same style of dialogue that I do. What I strictly prefer and what I write and have others write are not the same thing. My characters in F:NV are still on the dry end of the spectrum (e.g. Arcade Gannon, Chief Hanlon, Joshua Graham), but there are plenty of more flamboyant, expressive characters in the game that other writers developed."

 

Not sure if Joshoboam is trying to be polite here by using "expressive" and "dry" as euphemisms for "derpy badly-written over-the-top teen fanfic style" and "realistic, adult, professionally written." If so, hell yeah. But taken at face value, I disagree. I would characterize Morte, Nordom, Dak'kon, Annah, and Fall-from-Grace as "expressive" and I loved the bejeezus out of them.

 

"Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing. BG2 has a crazy amount of quests, which is great, but the density in Athkatla was a little too crazy. I think those quests should have been spread out or staggered in some other way. PE is going to have more of an exploration focus than BG2 (though not as much as BG), so I believe that will help spread the content out more."

 

Partly agree. For me, the problem wasn't the quest density per se; it was, again, a problem with the writing. There was no flow in Athkatla; the quests were disconnected things you stumbled into in every direction, and what's more they would stomp on you hard if you innocently started with the wrong one (=too high-level for ya). I hadn't considered the density aspect of it, but I did think that it would've worked better if the quests had flowed to you differently e.g. by being placed in a way that you'd be more likely to find the easier ones first, and if there was something in the writing that suggested why you were being offered all of those quests.

 

So I guess I'm in the kinda sorta agree with 50% camp here.

 

Ironically, the one part I really, strongly and unequivocally disagree with is this:

 

"Even though I had those problems with BG2, my job as a lead designer and project director is not to create content that appeals specifically to my tastes. Obviously I would have a difficult time making a game that I *disliked*, but I have (and continue to) push for elements I feel that players will ultimately enjoy even if I'm not super thrilled about it. That's my job."

 

I will not explain why.

[pseudonymous]

Well, as much as I like the IWD games, they had a much higher percentage of stupid fedex quests than BG2.

 

And they were mocked while you were performing them in IWD2.

 

n IWD1+2, it was either all spelled out as in "Please go back to the previous map and fetch me some arrows from an NPC you already met!", or quests of the form "I need rare item X, if you ever come across it bring it back to me!" where you would always automatically come across said item without any additional effort while following the game's critical path.

 

How else is a low level character going to gain experience, though?  If they threw monsters at you at that point you would die repeatedly, grow frustrated, and go on the internet to complain about how crap the games were.

[Sensuki]

I think that the writing level of Baldur's Gate 2 was aimed at the teenage audience moreso than Baldur's Gate 1 was, and many of the CNPCs come off that way.

 

a few examples:

 

Jan Jansen - whole dialogue was pretty much just one huge lol, some found it funnier than others

Minsc - classical dumb but good-hearted strong guy, done with a good spin of humor

Aerie - damsel in distress, need I say more

Edwin - evil wizard huarhuarhuar, also with the comical Edwina quest thrown in

 

I have to say when I was 13 years old, playing BG2 for the first time, I was all Aerie <3 as well.

 

Josh was a lot older when it came out, so I can see how someone in their 20s playing it for the first time might think yeah ... this is a bit corny.

Most of us here now I assume are 25+, so the writing in P:E will hopefully have a completely different tone and higher level of maturity.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Sensuki

[Forlorn Hope]

Once again, thank you for the update. Basically everything about PE so far is to my liking (well... maybe Forton's stance in the concept art is the only exception ).

 

And about BG2... It is still one of my favorite games of all time but I understand the criticisim and I agree on most points stated by Sawyer and others.

[C2B]

Sawyer

 

And Statement is renewed and explained better.

 

I'm fine with that.

[Sacred_Path]

At some point, hating on BG2 has become equivalent to hating on Haitian children. Well done internet.

[Ineth]

Edwin - evil wizard huarhuarhuar

 

But how can you not like an NPC with lines like this:

 

"Please don't disturb me while I'm plotting to overthrow you."

 

"Conversation with you does not rate highly on my list of things to accomplish."

 

"Sigh. It's aggravation like this that will eventually cause me to fireball the entire party as they sleep."

 

Okay, okay, I see your point...

Edited April 19, 2013 by Ineth

[Amentep]

I think that the writing level of Baldur's Gate 2 was aimed at the teenage audience moreso than Baldur's Gate 1 was, and many of the CNPCs come off that way.

 

a few examples:

 

Jan Jansen - whole dialogue was pretty much just one huge lol, some found it funnier than others

Minsc - classical dumb but good-hearted strong guy, done with a good spin of humor

Aerie - damsel in distress, need I say more

Edwin - evil wizard huarhuarhuar, also with the comical Edwina quest thrown in

 

I have to say when I was 13 years old, playing BG2 for the first time, I was all Aerie

 

Josh was a lot older when it came out, so I can see how someone in their 20s playing it for the first time might think yeah ... this is a bit corny.

 

Most of us here now I assume are 25+, so the writing in P:E will hopefully have a completely different tone and higher level of maturity.

 

I was older than a teen when I played BG2.  I thought Minsc was bland (thought he was bland in BG2 and wouldn't have used him but I thought Dynaheir was the best of the bad mage choices).  Edwin I didn't like, he was IMO banal evil.  Aerie could be a useful party member but a lot of her dialogue is overwrought and as subtle as a brick to the head.

 

Jan Jansen was funny though, but even then it was broad and unsubtle and very easy to see why it'd turn people off.

 

Part of the benefit of the Torment NPCs IMO was that you only got out of them what time you invested in them.  BGII had a overabundance of character - in both positive and negative sense.

 

Great game, but again I see no problem taking a critical eye to it and seeing what worked and trying to figure out why it worked (and what didn't work and avoiding it).

[Sensuki]

 

Edwin - evil wizard huarhuarhuar

 

But how can you not like an NPC with lines like this:

 

Never said I didn't like him

 

For a BG2 NPC he was pretty good. There were less interesting characters.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Sensuki

[GhoulishVisage]

This thread is showing why I had misgivings about the original PE pitch:

 

The pitch was nebulous enough in it's aims that many people had different ideas about what the project would be like.

When a dev says "a spiritual successor to the IE games" to someone else it has a completely different meaning for them than it does for me because we both have different ideas about what were the most important parts of those games.

I never expected Baldur's Gate 2013, but obviously other people did and unfortunately the original pitch didn't exactly dissuade them from that idea.



That said I liked this update.

It's always nice to have a little quick-reference guide.

The Aumaua race looks and sounds good. Not at all like the orc stand-in I've been expecting this whole time.
Sawyer's tidbits he's been dropping throughout the forum are always nice too.

 

I personally think it's a bit of a pity that there won't be one companion of each class seeing as there's eleven of them but eight companions. I wonder which will be left out?

[Sensuki]

Rogue, Barbarian, Chanter, Paladin and Druid have not been assigned an NPC yet.

 

2 unannounced CNPCs to go

 

my guess is Aumaua Barbarian and Godlike Rogue, but I'll be glad to be wrong.

[Tamerlane]

Pretty sure they said a long time ago that the characters they've revealed thus far aren't necessarily companions.

 

That said, the woman from the Godlike picture looks like a pretty... natural... choice for a druid. And Sawyer talked a bit about the cipher from this picture, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn out to be a potential party member.

[Sensuki]

*this post is unimportant, mods please delete*

I posted a link to a new interview but it wasnt really an interview just some formspring comments id already seen ahha

Edited April 19, 2013 by Sensuki

[Tamerlane]

Get it? Natural?

 

EDIT: Because it's a druid and she has plants and stuff all over her body. Get it?

Edited April 19, 2013 by Tamerlane

[Osvir]

Rogue, Barbarian, Chanter, Paladin and Druid have not been assigned an NPC yet.

 

2 unannounced CNPCs to go

 

my guess is Aumaua Barbarian and Godlike Rogue, but I'll be glad to be wrong.

 

Just for reference for more speculation:

1. Human Fighter Edair

2. Human Priest Cadegund

3. Human Monk Forton

4. Elf Wizard Aloth

5. Dwarf Ranger Sagani

 

Speculation time! And I am way more interested in possible character outcomes (dialogue/personality/profession/way of life etc. etc.) from the class rather than functionality:

 

6. Orlan...

- If Barbarian, possibly obnoxious pipsqueak battlemongrel :/

- If Cipher, then it is probably the detective

- If Chanter, hmm (mildly interesting)

- If Druid, Wild Orlan Sage? :D

- If Paladin, HMM! (interesting)

- If Rogue, cliché

 

7. Aumaua...

- If Barbarian, cliché

- If Cipher, HMM! (interesting)

- If Chanter "Wraaaah! Drums! Battlecry! Wraah!"

- If Druid, Voodoo Child

- If Paladin, "To arms my battle brothers!"~Leader

- If Rogue, hmm (mildly interesting)

 

8. Godlike... intentional context (please read the whole thing), regarding how the world reacts to Godlikes: "Many times, the reaction is overwhelmingly not"

- If Barbarian, hmm (mildly interesting)

- If Cipher, possibly evil~morally questioning "I get what I want and I take what I want. BRAIN ZAP!"

- If Chanter, hmm (mildly interesting)

- If Druid, escapist from society

- If Paladin, intimidating for enemies and allies alike

- If Rogue, possible Tiefling from NWN2 rehash

 

I removed the "Cipher" Orlan from the list of confirmed because of three things:

A: It is not "Official" on the Project: Eternity wiki yet.

B: If you click the "Orlan" link there is a picture, underneath the picture the detective Orlan has been given the description "An Orlan". Analytical little me views that as if this Orlan is possibly trivial to the Companion/Party setup right now. 

C: Update #40

As some of the keen-eyed among you noted from last week's update, there was an unfamiliar portrait in our work-in-progress tileset screenshot. We read the debates and viewed the Blade Runner-esque enhanced images that followed with interest. Good work, sleuths, the character pictured is, in fact, an orlan. This orlan is engaged in some important work in one of the Dyrwood's busiest cities. Here's the full-sized portrait for your continued speculation!

 

dditionally, I was asking "Is Edair really a recruitable companion?". I wish to revoke those thoughts because of the Wiki. All of the five companions on the Wiki do have "Potential Companion". The Orlan is yet to be listed.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Osvir

[GhoulishVisage]

Edit: since my comment was just as lame as that pun.

Personally Osvir, ever since I heard that there was an entire society of barbarian Glanfatharn elves in PE I have wished that our elf companion would be a barbarian instead of a wizard.

Having a barbarian elf in the party might make up for the fact that he's an elf.

Aloth's magic still looks fantastic though.

Edited April 19, 2013 by GhoulishVisage

[Sensuki]

Is there any cool detail about the game, perhaps something about a companion, a class or race, a story element or some other detail that you might be able to share with me, to be shared as an exclusive first at Sorcerer’s Place? Obviously something that you won’t get in trouble for sharing.

…Adam thinks solemnly for a moment….

 

 

 

We are developing a character that is an Orlan Cipher, who is a detective (Orlans are a new race in Project Eternity. They are small folk based after the gnome and the Halfling). He isn’t necessarily upper class, but he comes from wealth, so he dresses very nicely. Because he’s a Cipher he has somewhat psychic abilities that help him as a detective, and he uses that to investigate murders and the like. So that’s a character we are developing right now.

 

 

From this tidbit of info I'd say he's a companion. Edited April 19, 2013 by Sensuki

[Helm]

 

I'm amazed by the amount of people who loved Baldur's Gate and want a spiritual successor so bad that they backed project eternity, yet they allegedly also hate Baldur's Gate just like the lead designer, Josh Sawyer. LOL

Either you guys are complete morons, or you suffer from kind of lemming syndrome, and approve of anything and everything that Sawyer says, even if it is about his strong dislike for the game that we all know and love (Baldur's Gate 2). 

 

But Sawyer said that he will put elements into the game even if he does not like them and is not super thrilled about it. If he does not give the other producers (who hopefully actually like the Baldur's Gate series) a smackdown, then i'll leave it at that.

 

By the way Josh, you do know that New Vegas city had a lot of quests too, right? Don't be a hypocrite and criticize Baldur's Gate 2 for having too many quests in one place (Athkatla), even though your game "suffers" from this too. (In my opinion it is fine in both games though).

Also, how can you dislike Baldur's Gate 2 and criticize it's writing, yet LOVE Skyrim, even with it's horrible and boring story, writing and narrative? That does not make sense.

 

I'll save Helm the trouble:

 

"Man, why did he use SO many words to say 'Everything!'?"

 

Still mad that I refuse to read your walls of content lacking and badly constructed text? It's because you write like an illiterate drunkard you know.

 

Not to mention that all you ever write about is how Sawyer's design decisions are 110% correct. Hell, Sawyer could turn this game into a shooter and you'd be okay with that too. lol.

 

Until next time drog.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Helm

[Osvir]

@Sensuki: What's that saying... "evidence beyond reasonable doubt"? Yes, anyways, I don't have that yet and neither does it look like Obsidian has provided with enough evidence. I agree that it looks like this character (note: not "companion") is likely to be the Orlan we are looking for to fill the slot. But he has no name and neither does he have much emphasis on the wiki or in Obsidians official word.

"We are developing a character", and "This is an Orlan". As if it as an example of the race itself. There hasn't really been a word about "This is a companion character", yet.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Osvir

[Amentep]

I'm amazed by the amount of people who loved Baldur's Gate and want a spiritual successor so bad that they backed project eternity, yet they allegedly also hate Baldur's Gate just like the lead designer, Josh Sawyer. LOL

What makes you think that disliking aspects of something translates to hating something?

 

There are precious few - arguably no - games, books, or movies that are flawless; ergo there are precious few examples of these things that are immune to criticism.

 

I loved BGII. That doesn't mean I think its perfect. But under your logic, if I were to state my opinion that it was short sighted of Bioware to give Nalia a repeated banter line about "How are we helping the less fortunate?" that triggers while you're completing her primary quest means that suddenly I have a raging hate for BGII which isn't further from the truth.

 

Unfortunately, I have to conclude you've decided to troll these forums since you're not actually discussing anything anymore (something I know you can and have done in the past about your concerns of the direction of this project).

[Gumbercules]

Helm, Baldur's Gate 2 and Josh Sawyer are going through a rough patch, but they both want you to know that they still love you very much and that this isn't your fault. Now be a good sport and go play in your room.

[Sensuki]

I'm not 100% sure Helm understands that you can like something and still be able to criticize it.

 

for the record, BG1 and BG2 are my favorite games

Edited April 19, 2013 by Sensuki

[Helm]

I'm not 100% sure Helm understands that you can like something and still be able to criticize it.

 

for the record, BG1 and BG2 are my favorite games

OH NO, you uncovered my secret identity! lol. What are you going to do now? Are you going to ban me from the internet? hahahah

 

And yes, it is completely normal to criticize games that you really like or love, and also to say that there is very little that you actually like about the game.

 

Doesn't make sense, I know. But that is what you just wrote. Just keep denying the truth if it makes you feel better.  

[Sensuki]

I'll agree with you if you can find where I said there's very little I like about the games