What's going on in Boston?

[Gorgon]

 I'm Sure Spetnaz go to the toilet in two by two cover formation, flashbangs first. 

[mkreku]

Well.. when I did my duty in the Swedish army, there was a section about the Spetsnaz in one of the information books we studied. "If you capture a Spetsnaz, keep a 10 meter safety radius around him" or something like that.

 

And even if I find it unnecessary with the mocking pics in this thread, that pic with the sights mounted on backwards is a bit funny.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I know of one ex Spetsnaz. I don't know the details of his service in Afghanistan but I have seen him flick razor blades a few centimeters into a wooden block. And throw anything else with a sharp edge.

[Fighter]

SpetsNaz (СпецНаз = Специальное Назначение) is an acronym like SpecOps. It stands for "Special Purpose". It's a term applied to dozens of different units in different branches of the military and police. And they can be vastly different from each other.

[Rostere]

Ethnic differences and the emergence of "nations" in the Balkans and especially former Yugoslavia is really an interesting subject. The region has been ruled over by various other nations and empires throughout so much of it's history. It's really not strange that it all would blow up when the last occupier (the Ottoman empire) withdrew.

 

I've got a friend from the region (I think he's a Croat, but I don't know) whose take is basically that since former Yugoslavia was historically a meeting point between Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity and Islam, the people, who are basically the same, mistrust each other because of their different cultural influences.

[BruceVC]

Whats interesting is that the father is emphatically denying his sons did this, I feel sorry for him that he is so out of touch with the reality of the situation. I suppose denial is a form of a coping mechanism?

[Fighter]

In Russia that type of denial is kind of racial stereotype for people from Caucasus. There is even stand up comedy about it.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Ethnic differences and the emergence of "nations" in the Balkans and especially former Yugoslavia is really an interesting subject. The region has been ruled over by various other nations and empires throughout so much of it's history. It's really not strange that it all would blow up when the last occupier (the Ottoman empire) withdrew.

 

I've got a friend from the region (I think he's a Croat, but I don't know) whose take is basically that since former Yugoslavia was historically a meeting point between Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity and Islam, the people, who are basically the same, mistrust each other because of their different cultural influences.

 

The short version is this:

Pagan Slavs came to the Balkans in the 7th century or so. They were basically one large tribe or a multitude, but not significantly different.

The area came under the competing influences of Rome and Constantinopole, and was Christianized. 

When the churches split into the catholic west and orthodox east the first differences were created - although there was more antagonism between Rome and Constantinopole than between the Slavs themselves.

Slavic kingdoms rose and grew in power, even as the Byzantine power diminished. 

The Serbian state and the Byzantine empire fell in the 15th century to Ottoman Turk invasion. The Turks managed ultimately to get to Vienna but their real limit was the Austro Hungarian border, meaning they held the Serb territories but the Croats were left in a the catholic Austro-Hungarian empire. 

The differences widened as Croats became partially assimilated in the west, while Serbia struggled to retain its identity during the muslim rule. A small number were assimilated and mixed with the Turks becoming the serbian speaking muslims that would later form today's "Bosniak" identity.

In the 19th century the Turkish empire is in a decline. Serbia rebels several time against Turkish rule, gaining independence in 1878. The Turks are driven out. Croats are still under AH rule.

Twentieth century. A climate of unity is fostered between the Southern slavs. Ideas of a common state for Croats, Serbs and others rise.

Austro Hungarian empire dislikes this. It desires the former Turkish territories. Annexes Bosnia (formerly Turkish), and prepares to assault its neighboring Kingdom of Serbia. Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand is used as a pretext to start the long prepared war.

First world war begins. The Vatican and the catholic clergy try to instill anti-Serbian propaganda and later Croatian nationalism in the Croats, to get them to fight for AH which is already bursting at the seams. The Vatican dislikes the idea of a Slavic state as it sees Croatian territory as its own dominion.

World war 1 ends. As a reward for fighting with the allies, but mostly to keep a buffer zone next to much reduced Austria, France pushes for the creation of Yugoslavia to include former AH territories (Croatia, Bosnia) Serbia etc. Kingdom of Yugoslavia is formed.

Vatican inspired Croatian nationalism poisons the newly created state and before WWII the king is assassinated by a croatian nationalist. Yugoslavia starts to burst at the seams.

WWII. Yugoslavia is overrun by Axis. Croatia is given a quasi independence as a nazi puppet state "NDH". The muslims are also coopted by nazi forces into a SS division. Serbia and the rest is occupied.

"NDH" forms concentration camps for Serbs, Jews and Romany, to ethnically cleanse Croatian territories. 

In occupied serbia two resistance movements form. Communists and Royalists. Royalists are supported but later abandoned by the west after a deal with Stalin. 

Communist forces eventually win and post WWII Yugoslavia begins, within its former borders, as a satellite of the USSR. Croatian and muslim crimes are downplayed for the sake of unity. This leads to even more bad blood in the long run.

Yugoslavia breaks away from USSR. During its time it plays to both sides building a new, socialist, non-aligned image. Economic troubles and the downfall of the USSR intensify a growing crisis.

Croatian nationalism is resurrected with support from Germany and the Vatican. It declares independence.from Yugoslavia. The independence isn't a problem, but the new croatian leadership, which adorns itself in NDH symbolism refuses to give the large Serb minority constitutional rights. The minority rebels. Serbia is obligated to assist but the process is haphazard. Croatian leadership draws up a plan to forcibly convert, expel and eradicate the minority. The plan is a success with German and US PMC support.

 

Bosnian leadership sees their opportunity. Macedonia and Slovenia split from Yugoslavia without major conflict.

Bosnian muslim leadership desires to take control of the entirety of the territory. They only cover about half however, the rest is mostly Serbian and a small Croatian part. Civil war ensues. It essentially ends in a stalemate leaving bosnia split three ways as a western protectorate but it antagonizes everyone to the point of mutual hatred. 

 

Yugoslavia is left with only Serbia and Montenegro.

 

Conclusion. The differences arise from religion. However religion is not the reason for the war. It is an instrument of foreign powers (Vatican, Germany, Saudi Arabia and other muslim states) and domestic elites who worked on intensifying the situation and marrying religion to a nationalistic ideology.

The problem in Bosnia and Croatia was the huge minority of Serbian and other population that was left within their borders upon achieving independence or during that process. They did not want to integrate this population in a democratic state likely fearing their numbers and voting power. This led to violence and in both cases the minorities fought back, with covert support from the yugoslav/serb government in Belgrade.

In Croatia they were all but wiped out, in Bosnia they carved out an entity for themselves. 

 

Kosovo is a long story.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Orogun01]

Whats interesting is that the father is emphatically denying his sons did this, I feel sorry for him that he is so out of touch with the reality of the situation. I suppose denial is a form of a coping mechanism?

What is interesting is that everyone seems to be drawing up conclusions even though the boys are only suspected  of being the perpetrators, even though putting up the martial law and massive manhunt would suggest that everyone has already made up their minds. 

[Gorgon]

Well there are pictures of them near the bomb site and they killed a cop. It would be one hell of a case of mistaken identity if that was all it was. 

 

Who benifits from a conspiracy here ?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well there are pictures of them near the bomb site, they killed a cop. Besides, who benifits from a conspiracy.

Glenn Beck's and Alex Jones' ratings...

[Hurlshort]

 

Whats interesting is that the father is emphatically denying his sons did this, I feel sorry for him that he is so out of touch with the reality of the situation. I suppose denial is a form of a coping mechanism?

What is interesting is that everyone seems to be drawing up conclusions even though the boys are only suspected  of being the perpetrators, even though putting up the martial law and massive manhunt would suggest that everyone has already made up their minds. 

 

 

I get the whole innocent until proven guilty, but let's be realistic.  The odds of them not being the perpetrators are incredibly low.  Usually people who are framed don't go on a rampage and throw explosives out of car windows during the ensuing manhunt.

[BruceVC]

Well there are pictures of them near the bomb site and they killed a cop. It would be one hell of a case of mistaken identity if that was all it was. 

 

Who benifits from a conspiracy here ?

 

 

 

 

Whats interesting is that the father is emphatically denying his sons did this, I feel sorry for him that he is so out of touch with the reality of the situation. I suppose denial is a form of a coping mechanism?

What is interesting is that everyone seems to be drawing up conclusions even though the boys are only suspected  of being the perpetrators, even though putting up the martial law and massive manhunt would suggest that everyone has already made up their minds. 

 

 

I get the whole innocent until proven guilty, but let's be realistic.  The odds of them not being the perpetrators are incredibly low.  Usually people who are framed don't go on a rampage and throw explosives out of car windows during the ensuing manhunt.

 

 

Yeah I hear what you are saying Orogun but as others mentioned the current evidence and there behavior really indicates IMO they are the correct suspects.

[Hildegard]

WWII. Yugoslavia is overrun by Axis. Croatia is given a quasi independence as a nazi puppet state "NDH". The muslims are also coopted by nazi forces into a SS division. Serbia and the rest is occupied.

 

"NDH" forms concentration camps for Serbs, Jews and Romany, to ethnically cleanse Croatian territories. 

In occupied serbia two resistance movements form. Communists and Royalists. Royalists are supported but later abandoned by the west after a deal with Stalin. 

Communist forces eventually win and post WWII Yugoslavia begins, within its former borders, as a satellite of the USSR. Croatian and muslim crimes are downplayed for the sake of unity. This leads to even more bad blood in the long run.

Yugoslavia breaks away from USSR. During its time it plays to both sides building a new, socialist, non-aligned image. Economic troubles and the downfall of the USSR intensify a growing crisis.

Croatian nationalism is resurrected with support from Germany and the Vatican. It declares independence.from Yugoslavia. The independence isn't a problem, but the new croatian leadership, which adorns itself in NDH symbolism refuses to give the large Serb minority constitutional rights. The minority rebels. Serbia is obligated to assist but the process is haphazard. Croatian leadership draws up a plan to forcibly convert, expel and eradicate the minority. The plan is a success with German and US PMC support.

 

Bosnian leadership sees their opportunity. Macedonia and Slovenia split from Yugoslavia without major conflict.

Bosnian muslim leadership desires to take control of the entirety of the territory. They only cover about half however, the rest is mostly Serbian and a small Croatian part. Civil war ensues. It essentially ends in a stalemate leaving bosnia split three ways as a western protectorate but it antagonizes everyone to the point of mutual hatred. 

 

Yugoslavia is left with only Serbia and Montenegro.

 

Conclusion. The differences arise from religion. However religion is not the reason for the war. It is an instrument of foreign powers (Vatican, Germany, Saudi Arabia and other muslim states) and domestic elites who worked on intensifying the situation and marrying religion to a nationalistic ideology.

The problem in Bosnia and Croatia was the huge minority of Serbian and other population that was left within their borders upon achieving independence or during that process. They did not want to integrate this population in a democratic state likely fearing their numbers and voting power. This led to violence and in both cases the minorities fought back, with covert support from the yugoslav/serb government in Belgrade.

In Croatia they were all but wiped out, in Bosnia they carved out an entity for themselves. 

 

Kosovo is a long story.

 

 

 

Such pro-Serbian interpretation of Balkan history is really fascinating. You're either a Serb or a pro-Serbian individual but either way this interpretation of history is utter biased crap and I won't spend an another minute replying to this rubble of nonsense.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Hildegard

[Malcador]

Wonder how they'll get a fair trial.

[BruceVC]

 

WWII. Yugoslavia is overrun by Axis. Croatia is given a quasi independence as a nazi puppet state "NDH". The muslims are also coopted by nazi forces into a SS division. Serbia and the rest is occupied.

 

"NDH" forms concentration camps for Serbs, Jews and Romany, to ethnically cleanse Croatian territories. 

In occupied serbia two resistance movements form. Communists and Royalists. Royalists are supported but later abandoned by the west after a deal with Stalin. 

Communist forces eventually win and post WWII Yugoslavia begins, within its former borders, as a satellite of the USSR. Croatian and muslim crimes are downplayed for the sake of unity. This leads to even more bad blood in the long run.

Yugoslavia breaks away from USSR. During its time it plays to both sides building a new, socialist, non-aligned image. Economic troubles and the downfall of the USSR intensify a growing crisis.

Croatian nationalism is resurrected with support from Germany and the Vatican. It declares independence.from Yugoslavia. The independence isn't a problem, but the new croatian leadership, which adorns itself in NDH symbolism refuses to give the large Serb minority constitutional rights. The minority rebels. Serbia is obligated to assist but the process is haphazard. Croatian leadership draws up a plan to forcibly convert, expel and eradicate the minority. The plan is a success with German and US PMC support.

 

Bosnian leadership sees their opportunity. Macedonia and Slovenia split from Yugoslavia without major conflict.

Bosnian muslim leadership desires to take control of the entirety of the territory. They only cover about half however, the rest is mostly Serbian and a small Croatian part. Civil war ensues. It essentially ends in a stalemate leaving bosnia split three ways as a western protectorate but it antagonizes everyone to the point of mutual hatred. 

 

Yugoslavia is left with only Serbia and Montenegro.

 

Conclusion. The differences arise from religion. However religion is not the reason for the war. It is an instrument of foreign powers (Vatican, Germany, Saudi Arabia and other muslim states) and domestic elites who worked on intensifying the situation and marrying religion to a nationalistic ideology.

The problem in Bosnia and Croatia was the huge minority of Serbian and other population that was left within their borders upon achieving independence or during that process. They did not want to integrate this population in a democratic state likely fearing their numbers and voting power. This led to violence and in both cases the minorities fought back, with covert support from the yugoslav/serb government in Belgrade.

In Croatia they were all but wiped out, in Bosnia they carved out an entity for themselves. 

 

Kosovo is a long story.

 

 

 

Such pro-Serbian interpretation of Balkan history is really fascinating. You're either a Serb or a pro-Serbian individual but either way this interpretation of history is utter biased crap and I won't spend an another minute replying to this rubble of nonsense.

 

 

 Well instead of insulting his post why don't you use the forum to dispute it with the historical facts as you understand it. I for one am interested ?

 

I may not  be an expert in the history of Yugoslavia but I know some things he mentioned are accurate

Edited April 21, 2013 by BruceVC

[Drowsy Emperor]

Wonder how they'll get a fair trial.

 

Wasn't the younger brother shot?

 

 

 Well instead of insulting his post why don't you use the forum to dispute it with the historical facts as you understand it. I for one am interested ?

 

 

 

I may not  be an expert in the history of Yugoslavia but I know some things he mentioned are accurate

 

 

He probably has a personal stake in it.

 

Its the short version and some generalizations had to be made, but much of that can be confirmed by simple fact checking. 

 

Everyone likes to claim the position of the victim in the Balkan wars, but an ethnicity map speaks for itself. Its the best guide to seeing what happened, even if you don't know the actual course of events.

 

1990 Nat Geo ethnic map

 

2000-2003 apparently World Bank map

 

As is apparent, Croatia is ethnically clean in the new millenium and Bosnia is homogenized into 3 blocks.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Malcador]

There's going to be a trial? :D

Of course there is, the US is a country of law, you know I do wonder at what the defense will argue, I guess they'll run with him being led along by his extremist brother ?

 

Good that they'll be in civilian court, rather than some military tribunal. Looks better, which is key in this kind of thing.

[Drowsy Emperor]

He's probably going to wish he activated his suicide vest by the time this thing is through.

[BruceVC]

 

Wonder how they'll get a fair trial.

 

Wasn't the younger brother shot?

 

 

 Well instead of insulting his post why don't you use the forum to dispute it with the historical facts as you understand it. I for one am interested ?

 

 

 

I may not  be an expert in the history of Yugoslavia but I know some things he mentioned are accurate

 

 

He probably has a personal stake in it.

 

Its the short version and some generalizations had to be made, but much of that can be confirmed by simple fact checking. 

 

Everyone likes to claim the position of the victim in the Balkan wars, but an ethnicity map speaks for itself. Its the best guide to seeing what happened, even if you don't know the actual course of events.

 

1990 Nat Geo ethnic map

 

2000-2003 apparently World Bank map

 

As is apparent, Croatia is ethnically clean in the new millenium and Bosnia is homogenized into 3 blocks.

 

 

You have spent time explaining your point and using references, I respect that and its been interesting

 

If someone disagrees with you and is insulting about it they should have the good manners to at least explain why through a post that has content in yet.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Hey you're welcome.

 

We don't have to agree necessarily on an issue, but you have an admirably stoic and polite approach to discussion.

 

PS: You obviously don't get around much on the internet 

Edited April 21, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Hurlshort]

He's probably going to wish he activated his suicide vest by the time this thing is through.

 

Eh, 3 square meals a day and cable TV in his cell isn't exactly a terrible life.  Not to belittle life in prison, but it isn't exactly a gulag.  The interesting thing will be how he manages with other inmates, I'm guessing he will be on solitary for a good while.

[BruceVC]

Hey you're welcome.

 

We don't have to agree necessarily on an issue, but you have an admirably stoic and polite approach to discussion.

 

PS: You obviously don't get around much on the internet 

 

Well I think its probably more accurate to say I spend time on websites where  people engage in a normal fashion

[Monte Carlo]

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but isn't the FSB special warfare school located in Makhachkala?

[mkreku]

To put things in perspective:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/21/boston-marathon-bombs-us-gun-law