Demographics of these forums.

[BruceVC]

I can't see what exactly i'm supposed to do about other peoples behaviour, that's their business. I have no desire to enforce my morality on anybody else, in fact i'd find that utterly distasteful.

 

You have asked an honest and relevant question "what can we do about other peoples behavior" on the Internet

 

There is something we can do, we can reject it and make a point of commenting on it when we see someone displaying bigotry. For many us it's  easier to not say anything, I understand that. But the reality is sexism and other forms of bigotry are a real problem on the Internet in many cases and surly we can condemn it when we are exposed to it. I don't see this as enforcing your morality but rather doing the right thing?

[Nonek]

Personally i'd see that as preaching, I doubt that I have the authority to tell people what to think (I certainly don't have the inclination,) or that my code of ethics is superior. I am responsible for my family and myself, nothing more, going beyond that is not to me the right thing as no matter how objectionable ones view I believe they are entitled to it.

 

The moderators maintain the standards of the site, and they seem to do an admirable job in that regard.

[Meshugger]

What a ****y article. It lacks any form of depth or substance, nor does even try to adress the problems in any constructive way.

 

"While the majority of RPS’s readers are men, that’s not something we’re proud of."

 

Oh my, what ever happened to artistical integrity? commitment to the art itself? That comment alone is the very definition of selling out. If any musician/artist would say something similar, they would be considered a fraud. For example: "While majority of our fans are black/white/sailors, that's not something we're proud of".

 

The comments are off on this post.

 

You spineless little coward. If you can't take heat, then stay out of the kitchen. This is like starting a topic in a debate club, only to end it by "If you wish to comment, please see me privately in my room".

 

 

I mean really? Where's the analysis on the origins of gaming and the target audience? Where's the research general behaviourism? How about this: do not make a hobby a target for gender studies, since it will only lead to further schism and deviate from the hobby itself, but rather focus on it not being a target of it, thus making it inheritly equal to everyone. And finally, enforce good code of conduct and the ****bags will dissappear by themselves without dragging politics into it.

[babaganoosh13]

I had two female friends that played WoW with me, and both found that when it became known that they were female they'd either get snide comments, or be inundated with offers of support and gifts.  Neither of these actions were particularly flattering for them, unfortunately, so they tended to lay low.

A few years back when I played WoW, I had multiple toons on multiple servers. Usually 1 main, and several low level crafters. Any of the female toons that I would create, I would name with plays of the names of famous transvestites, comedians/authors in drag or in the case of my clerics: a politician and a catholic high school principal whom were caught in slightly hypocritical and/or embarrassing positions. Names like Grupaul, Edieizzard, Ohwilde, Rachaelcurti, Paulachum... I thought it was funny, and kinda told people that I was a guy, playing a girl.

 

The pleasant was conversations about the last time they seen Eddie Izzard either live, or interviewed on some show. There was one person not in my guild that got the Oscar Wilde reference.

 

The rest was from random guys who would hit on me, seeing as how Grupaul, a female blood elf mage was my main toon on one of the servers I was on a lot. I would point out my name. They never got it. Even later on when the show RuPaul's Drag Race was on MTV/MuchMoreMusic. It was annoying when they'd follow me. Atleast being a mage I could warp.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Personally, I'll take a pair of boobs over you lot any day.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Amentep]

I mean really? Where's the analysis on the origins of gaming and the target audience? Where's the research general behaviourism? How about this: do not make a hobby a target for gender studies, since it will only lead to further schism and deviate from the hobby itself, but rather focus on it not being a target of it, thus making it inheritly equal to everyone. And finally, enforce good code of conduct and the ****bags will dissappear by themselves without dragging politics into it.

 

To be fair, gender studies is going look at everything produced by a society to try to understand how it influences and is influenced by gender.  I don't think there is any way to escape scrutiny in this sense as you suggest.

[Meshugger]

...^which is stupid no matter what.

[AGX-17]

Hi All

 

I really enjoy these Obsidian forums, I find most people intelligent and they offer thoughtful and insightful comments on topics. I also believed that these forums were balanced in the way of male\female contributions. As I mentioned numerous times I am a liberal and I recently read the excellent article on RPS about sexism

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/06/misogyny-sexism-and-why-rps-isnt-shutting-up/

 

In that article they mention that 50 % of gamers are female, and that struck me. Where are all the female gamers on these forums? I know about LadyC but how come we don't see more ladies commenting. I assume they play RPG and its not like these forums are in any way immature or sexist so whats happening? Any insight to this would be appreciated.

I'd imagine it has something to do with the rather closed "community" of "hardcore gamers" being generally hostile toward females, dismissing them as "casuals" or "fake geek girls."

[Amentep]

...^which is stupid no matter what.

 

I find a lot of media related studies to be horribly skewed or weak in methodology in terms of generating results worth caring about.  I'm not sure I'm against people trying so much as that often it comes down - in my experience at least - to the individuals using their own experiences and what "facts" fit what they think it the case.  Most of them don't seem to start life as "How does media "A" do this" but "Media "A" does this and I'm out to prove it".

 

I'd imagine it has something to do with the rather closed "community" of "hardcore gamers" being generally hostile toward females, dismissing them as "casuals" or "fake geek girls."

 

I confess, I've never understood why anyone would care whether someone was a "casual" fan of something or not.  Hell, I post here regularly and I couldn't care less if any one of you fine people liked anything I like.  I do enjoy our discussion, but at the end of the day I could care less how "hardcore" you are.

[Drowsy Emperor]

What's this discussion about exactly?

 

 If you want a civil relationship on the internet its going to depend on the other person's upbringing, just like any other relationship. Its the only thing keeping the nastier sides of human interaction from surfacing behind the comfort on anonymity. 

 

Both genders often fail this simple test as evidenced by Facebook communication, even between people that supposedly "know" each other.

[Meshugger]

 

...^which is stupid no matter what.

 

I find a lot of media related studies to be horribly skewed or weak in methodology in terms of generating results worth caring about.  I'm not sure I'm against people trying so much as that often it comes down - in my experience at least - to the individuals using their own experiences and what "facts" fit what they think it the case.  Most of them don't seem to start life as "How does media "A" do this" but "Media "A" does this and I'm out to prove it".

 

I somewhat agree there. 

[alanschu]

Oh my, what ever happened to artistical integrity? commitment to the art itself? That comment alone is the very definition of selling out. If any musician/artist would say something similar, they would be considered a fraud. For example: "While majority of our fans are black/white/sailors, that's not something we're proud of".

 

It should be noted he does not say he's ashamed that most of his readers are men.  If you look at it, the notion that "most of our readers are men" is not really something someone should be proud of.  Ideally, it should be a non-issue.  But in his opinion it's not.

 

 

 

You spineless little coward. If you can't take heat, then stay out of the kitchen. This is like starting a topic in a debate club, only to end it by "If you wish to comment, please see me privately in my room".

 

Furthermore, he was active on Twitter, and openly invited people to send him emails and that he would read each and every single one of them.  He encouraged people to write up articles point out that he was wrong, and to even link them to him.

 

Comments are ovestated (and some early studies now showing, perhaps even counterproductive in facilitating understanding).

Edited April 8, 2013 by alanschu

[BruceVC]

What's this discussion about exactly?

 

 If you want a civil relationship on the internet its going to depend on the other person's upbringing, just like any other relationship. Its the only thing keeping the nastier sides of human interaction from surfacing behind the comfort on anonymity. 

 

Both genders often fail this simple test as evidenced by Facebook communication, even between people that supposedly "know" each other.

 

This discussion is about several things for me, one of them being the  prevalence of sexism and discrimination on the Internet and what people who say they are opposed to those things are prepared to do about it. In real life you wouldn't accept overt bigotry but it seems because its on the Internet many of us say things like " well its the Internet, what can I do" or "I can't tell someone else on forums they are saying something I find unacceptable". I reject this as I believe we can condemn discrimination on any level. But hey, thats just me

 

 

Oh my, what ever happened to artistical integrity? commitment to the art itself? That comment alone is the very definition of selling out. If any musician/artist would say something similar, they would be considered a fraud. For example: "While majority of our fans are black/white/sailors, that's not something we're proud of".

 

It should be noted he does not say he's ashamed that most of his readers are men.  If you look at it, the notion that "most of our readers are men" is not really something someone should be proud of.  Ideally, it should be a non-issue.  But in his opinion it's not.

 

Also whats wrong with them acknowledging that they want more female members? I would also want a more balanced representation of gamers amongst my members

[Malcador]

This discussion is about several things for me, one of them being the  prevalence of sexism and discrimination on the Internet and what people who say they are opposed to those things are prepared to do about it. In real life you wouldn't accept overt bigotry but it seems because its on the Internet many of us say things like " well its the Internet, what can I do" or "I can't tell someone else on forums they are saying something I find unacceptable". I reject this as I believe we can condemn discrimination on any level. But hey, thats just me

So, I'm guessing what they're prepared to do about it based on the past year or so of all the outrage is just write righteous articles, creating hashtags and videos ?

[NOK222]

 

 

I had two female friends that played WoW with me, and both found that when it became known that they were female they'd either get snide comments, or be inundated with offers of support and gifts.  Neither of these actions were particularly flattering for them, unfortunately, so they tended to lay low.

A few years back when I played WoW, I had multiple toons on multiple servers. Usually 1 main, and several low level crafters. Any of the female toons that I would create, I would name with plays of the names of famous transvestites, comedians/authors in drag or in the case of my clerics: a politician and a catholic high school principal whom were caught in slightly hypocritical and/or embarrassing positions. Names like Grupaul, Edieizzard, Ohwilde, Rachaelcurti, Paulachum... I thought it was funny, and kinda told people that I was a guy, playing a girl.

 

The pleasant was conversations about the last time they seen Eddie Izzard either live, or interviewed on some show. There was one person not in my guild that got the Oscar Wilde reference.

 

The rest was from random guys who would hit on me, seeing as how Grupaul, a female blood elf mage was my main toon on one of the servers I was on a lot. I would point out my name. They never got it. Even later on when the show RuPaul's Drag Race was on MTV/MuchMoreMusic. It was annoying when they'd follow me. Atleast being a mage I could warp.

 

 

This is funny, I played a female toon on WOW years back, and I always got stuff. I never corrected them. I'm an ass, I know.

 

Strangely, this doesn't happen in SWTOR, no one questions your gender even if you are a female toon.

[HoonDing]

Female gamers should get their own Fermi paradox.

[Meshugger]

 

Oh my, what ever happened to artistical integrity? commitment to the art itself? That comment alone is the very definition of selling out. If any musician/artist would say something similar, they would be considered a fraud. For example: "While majority of our fans are black/white/sailors, that's not something we're proud of".

 

It should be noted he does not say he's ashamed that most of his readers are men.  If you look at it, the notion that "most of our readers are men" is not really something someone should be proud of.  Ideally, it should be a non-issue.  But in his opinion it's not.

 

 

 

>You spineless little coward. If you can't take heat, then stay out of the kitchen. This is like starting a topic in a debate club, only to end it by "If you wish to comment, please see me privately in my room".

 

Furthermore, he was active on Twitter, and openly invited people to send him emails and that he would read each and every single one of them.  He encouraged people to write up articles point out that he was wrong, and to even link them to him.

 

Comments are ovestated (and some early studies now showing, perhaps even counterproductive in facilitating understanding).

 

 

1) I didn't talk about shame or accused him of instilling it. I was talking about backbone, character, integrity.

2) He said himself that he closed comments because of the possible hateful response. No need for him to try to circumvent the issue, nor is there any shame in admitting cowardice.

 

If he would've have written that comments or not unnecessary or counterproductive and linked to said articles X and Y that indicate it, then i would believe him...barely. If RPS would shut down comments completely in all their articles by the same reason, then i would believe him.

[alanschu]

 

Also whats wrong with them acknowledging that they want more female members? I would also want a more balanced representation of gamers amongst my members

 

Nothing, although I don't really think that that's what they're trying to do with this article.  It's mostly just an awareness piece, specifically at the common counter arguments that typically come up whenever someone brings up sexism in games.

 

John seems to think that the community (probably more specifically, the more "hardcore" community) is insular to a fault.  Some will call him a spineless coward for disabling comments, though he states that his intent is to remove the stage for grandstanding of people that use the typical counter arguments in an attempt to derail/intimidate.  Obviously not everyone is going to agree that this course of action is the best one, but it seems like the mind of John Walker sees these types of comments as not contributing to the discussion, and in fact serve to undermine it.

 

 

Although I must admit, in some cases the

is at its most delicious when the outrage ends up resulting in increased exposure.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Oh, this bull**** again.

[Amentep]

Also whats wrong with them acknowledging that they want more female members? I would also want a more balanced representation of gamers amongst my members

 

The big question - in this sense and in my opinion - is whether the barrier to their readership is internal or external.  This isn't something that Walker addresses; he seems to assume its external (I'm not entirely sure; I avoided the site for years simply because I have trouble taking them seriously with the name "Rock, Paper, Shotgun as a serious game journalism site).

 

This doesn't mean that self-examination or trying to raise points about larger issues is irrelevant, however.  Anything that is advertising driven should either be casting as wide a net as it can or do very, very well with an advertiser popular demographic).

[Amentep]

John seems to think that the community (probably more specifically, the more "hardcore" community) is insular to a fault.

 

I'd say that - in my experience at least - fandom in general is insular to a fault and it doesn't matter what you're a fan of. One of the more depressing things I've seen in fans is people making fun of other people's fandom. What a lot of hardcore people don't seem to understand - in my opinion at least - is that being hardcore doesn't somehow make them better; their being a fan of something doesn't make the object of their fandom superior to that which they are not a fan.

 

But that's the thing, fandom for many is a refuge. And anything that is seen to "change" that refuge is going to be seen as an attack by a certain segment of the population who can't get past their own exclusionary tendencies and/or their own self-doubt about themselves or their fandom.

[alanschu]

1) I didn't talk about shame or accused him of instilling it. I was talking about backbone, character, integrity.

 

So explicit admission that your response was actually irrelevant to what you quoted?  You're right that you didn't talk about shame or instilling it, I did.  I brought it up because you addressed a point about how he is not proud of the fact that most of his readers are male.  Should he be?

 

You did a poor job of addressing backbone, character, and integrity, given that with this post he displays that he is willing to stand up against those that try to intimidate and bully him into submission, feels it is important to him, and does it all while not hiding behind any sort of anonymity.  Artistic integrity?  Selling Out?  Honestly, selling out would be him keeping silent and not speaking his mind because it gives him a paycheque (you can critique him about other aspects of this if you like.  Ask Zoraptor for more information).  This is Walker taking a stand, and whether you do or do not agree with it I fail to see how you can accuse him of not having a backbone nor character for doing so.  I could reason some level of a lack of integrity, if RPS hadn't been taking steps towards something like this for some time.

 

 

 

2) He said himself that he closed comments because of the possible hateful response. No need for him to try to circumvent the issue, nor is there any shame in admitting cowardice.

 

He closed the comments because because he doesn't want that particular article to be a stage used by those that wish to silent the debate with their irrelevant discourse.  It's a lot like what you're doing, which is focusing on the comment issue rather than the article.  Dwelling on him not allowing comments is a tactic in obfuscation and misdirection, by shifting the discussion away from the content itself to something else altogether.  It's an attempt to discredit an author through the use of red herring fallacy.  Furthermore, Walker also came straight up and said it and why he is doing it, all while dealing with mountains of responses (apparently both supportive and against his position) on places like Twitter, a very public forum.  It was actually quite entertaining to see people accuse him of refusing to publicly address criticisms while using Twitter.

 

Spineless cowards are the ones that go and spread their hate over comments and internet forums under the veil of anonymity because they know they won't be held accountable for their actions.  It's easy for someone to **** all over something when he knows that the likelihood of ever being taken to task on the things he said is virtually nil.

 

EDIT: It should be clear that I'm not insinuating that you're a spineless coward.  I'm saying that the accusation of a public person that can can be easily reached as being spineless holds less water with me than the private, anonymous individuals that gravitate towards these things.  Although even then, the anonymity still exists on some level simply because I will likely never meet any of these people, so I can see where you are coming from, even if I disagree with the conclusion you reached.

Edited April 8, 2013 by alanschu

[Drowsy Emperor]

Are you people seriously going to get so riled up over an article on a gaming site,  places otherwise famed for valuable social commentary and critique? Frequented by educated, thorough and studious thinkers?

 

Seriously?

Edited April 8, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

 

1) I didn't talk about shame or accused him of instilling it. I was talking about backbone, character, integrity.

 

So explicit admission that your response was actually irrelevant to what you quoted?  You're right that you didn't talk about shame or instilling it, I did.  I brought it up because you addressed a point about how he is not proud of the fact that most of his readers are male.  Should he be?

 

You did a poor job of addressing backbone, character, and integrity, given that with this post he displays that he is willing to stand up against those that try to intimidate and bully him into submission, feels it is important to him, and does it all while not hiding behind any sort of anonymity.  Artistic integrity?  Selling Out?  Honestly, selling out would be him keeping silent and not speaking his mind because it gives him a paycheque (you can critique him about other aspects of this if you like.  Ask Zoraptor for more information).  This is Walker taking a stand, and whether you do or do not agree with it I fail to see how you can accuse him of not having a backbone nor character for doing so.  I could reason some level of a lack of integrity, if RPS hadn't been taking steps towards something like this for some time.

 

 

 

>2) He said himself that he closed comments because of the possible hateful response. No need for him to try to circumvent the issue, nor is there any shame in admitting cowardice.

 

He closed the comments because because he doesn't want that particular article to be a stage used by those that wish to silent the debate with their irrelevant discourse.  It's a lot like what you're doing, which is focusing on the comment issue rather than the article.  Dwelling on him not allowing comments is a tactic in obfuscation and misdirection, by shifting the discussion away from the content itself to something else altogether.  It's an attempt to discredit an author through the use of red herring fallacy.  Furthermore, Walker also came straight up and said it and why he is doing it, all while dealing with mountains of responses (apparently both supportive and against his position) on places like Twitter, a very public forum.  It was actually quite entertaining to see people accuse him of refusing to publicly address criticisms while using Twitter.

 

Spineless cowards are the ones that go and spread their hate over comments and internet forums under the veil of anonymity because they know they won't be held accountable for their actions.  It's easy for someone to **** all over something when he knows that the likelihood of ever being taken to task on the things he said is virtually nil.

 

 

Wow, what can I say.  Really relevant post, you have this ability to articulate points  better than I ever can. I really admire that, nice one  

 

As I mentioned on another post I did email John in support of the article and he told me out of the 900 emails received so far  only 30 were negative about the article. So many people like me support his unequivocal stance on this subject

[alanschu]

 

I'd say that - in my experience at least - fandom in general is insular to a fault and it doesn't matter what you're a fan of. One of the more depressing things I've seen in fans is people making fun of other people's fandom. What a lot of hardcore people don't seem to understand - in my opinion at least - is that being hardcore doesn't somehow make them better; their being a fan of something doesn't make the object of their fandom superior to that which they are not a fan.

 

Fandom can be pretty insular in general, I agree.  At least, I can't think of too much off the top of my head.  I absolutely agree that it's frustrating to see people getting on each other's case for other people's fandom.  I used to get involved in it too, but I'm no longer interested in getting caught up in PC vs Console or anything of that sort.  If people want to play console games, they can play console games.  I'm a PC gamer and I'm pretty sure we can both coexist on this planet.