What Is the Most Important Factor for Making a Great RPG?

[Ffordesoon]

@Grape:

 

I am either not grasping some important component of what you're saying, or I do grasp it and simply don't agree. In either case, your argument puzzles me.

 

I mean, I'm a writer. I have a natural bias toward authored narratives. I am also a confirmed evangelist of authored narratives in video games. To that end, I would agree wholeheartedly that an authored narrative of sterling quality can make for a special game.

 

But...

 

Well, before I try to deconstruct your argument, I want to know what it is you mean by "plot" and "character development." I know what they mean to me, but I want to make sure we're on the same page - or within the same chapter, at the least. There would be no sense in arguing about plot and character development with someone whose interpretation of those terms is radically different from my own. At that point, I might as well deliver an exhaustive lecture explaining why an object you think is yellow is actually blue.

[Grape_You_In_The_Mouth]

By plot I mean X did this, then Y did that, then Z happened.  Character development to me is just a more character focused version of this, being the way characters react to events and what plot choices they choose to make, and how they act with other characters over the storyline.

 

I think the real argument is what's the definition of "great."  What would make someone pay extra money for a game is a lot different than what this or that developer wants players to get out of their game.

[Failion]

What make the ultimate isometric like game. I say Arcanum had good atmosphere and open world feel. Baldurs gate 2 map design. Divine divinity you can move boxes and stuff around the environment, very simple idea but made the game great. Planescape torment character development etc. 

[Christliar]

Good gameplay and combat can cover a lot of flaws and I think it's the most important thing to get right. I couldn't complete Anachronox because of the sloggish and tedious combat even though I loved the premise, the characters (seriously, you have a PLANET as a companion) and the story. It should be fun to play is the point I'm trying to make. You need a sense of progession as well, like in D&D you get more attacks per round, more spells per day or more interesting feats. Leveling should be something exciting, not just a flat number increase on your dmg or stats. (Examples: DA:O, NWN and all D&D based games, Diablo 2 (maybe), etc)

The story is a bit hit and miss to be honest. You can't just have a good *story*, you need interesting characters to go through that story with and this is more important than the ultimate conflict. There are only so many permutations of X is trying to kill you/them/ALL PEOPLE EVER, but the journey to that destination is what makes any medium memorable and worth experiencing. Hamlet isn't interesting because Hamlet is trying to avenge his father and expose Claudius, it's the interactions between the characters and the arcs and spiritual journeys (to be or not to be...) they go through.  The characters should interact with each other and you, they should have their own goals and ambitions and we should get to know them throughout the game. (Examples: Planescape Torment, KoToR 2, Beyond Good and Evil, etc)

Graphics aren't important, but the aesthetics are. Aesthetics are what make a location and world memorable. The world should look like it is a single world and not just chaotically pieced together ideas like many games seem to fall into. Lighting, vibrant colors and interesting design can add a lot to the atmosphere of a piece. Fitting music should also be employed and can heighten the sense of wonderment or tension. Aesthetics should evoke feelings of fondness and in a few years nostalgia. Bioware games tend to exhibit many of these traits. (Examples: Planescape Torment, DA:O, Beyond Good and Evil, Mass Effects, The Longest Journey and Dreamfall, etc.)

I've always looked at the choice and consequence dichotomy a bit skeptically, because it can detract from the idea you are trying to persue. Imagine a musical piece where you can shift motifs, passages, keys etc. whenever you felt like it. It would be ruined both musically and philosophically and the sense of inner progression is lost completely. This  type of thing should be employed only if it serves the narrative purposes and doesn't feel disjointed from the rest of the game. It doesn't necessarily add to the overall experience, but it can detract and it most certainly will if used badly or incompletely. I can't actually think of a game that has its very core or narrative shifted because of a few dialogue options that present "choices", so I can't give an example of a good one. The most successful attempts are those which are subtle and are small enough that don't really mess with the progression all that much. (Examples: Mass Effects, DA:O...and that's about it.)

In conclusion I will say that a classic is a thing that transcends its release date and is a universal concept that resonates with people forever. Games may not have such a colossal impact on the artistic and creative world (yet), but it has the potential to do so. We call Baldur's Gate, Doom and all these old games classics, but such talk is mostly based on rose-tinted goggles and nostalgia. Mainly because they age and do not have the same jaw-dropping allure now. I kinda went off-topic there, but the thing I'm trying to say is that a great game, a great medium in general, combines many things and is made with skill, knowledge and experience. I trust the guys at Obsidian have all these qualities in their chosen field and will deliver a great experience

 

[Osvir]

1. World. The World needs to be believable, authentic, fun, entertaining and grand.
2. World Plot. A World Plot is the "Grand Scheme" or the "Grand Device", something that gets possibly fulfilled after several installments.
3. Character Plot/Content. What can I, as the Player, experience & do in this world? Can I pave my own path through the world, find my own "plot"? Can I create my own Faction and dominate the world? Create an utopia? "Create your own story within a story" type thing. There is only one game I can think of (from the top of my head) that truly fulfills this and has all the potential to fulfill this: EVE Online. As for a Single Player game, Darklands seems to have it as well (I wouldn't honestly know). I managed to create a party, venture out into the world briefly, found a tower, got into it, fought some guards, won, ventured out into the wilds, died.

In many games & stories I think it looks like this (Not necessarily a bad way to make a great RPG, it's just "most games/stories" does this):
1. World.
2. Character Plot is World Plot. It's the same thing. "The Chosen One" stories. "Player has to go from point A to B to finish the story".

[jamoecw]

the choices are not that great:

1) graphics - what about them?  technical quality, artistry, efficiency?

2) Atmosphere/Immersion Elements/Consistent World (Can include voice acting, music, gameplay-&-story integration) - this includes plot, graphics (both quality and artistry), combat system, character development (both mechanical and plot), etc.

3) combat system - what about it? UI, character progression mechanically, pacing, balance, behind the scenes mechanics?

4) character advancement system - what about it? choice and consequences, balance, mechanics

5) etc.

 

too much overlap, in fact based on the overlap alone i'd bet that #2 will win, that or the last one, both answers encompass almost everything about any game, let alone rpgs.  in today's age there are different types of rpgs due to the focus of them, some are combat oriented, some story driven, some are more strategic.  combat oriented games tend to become repetitive, story driven games tend to be flat compared to real life, and strategic games often time become fancy puzzles.  the question isn't what is more important, but what keeps the game from feeling repetitive/flat/a puzzle?

[Jarmo]

About atmosphere, and aesthetics.

It sort of has to carry through to characters and plot somewhat, and also partly comes from the characters and plot.

 

Take some old Clint Eastwood westerns. The plot was often shoddy and the characters caricatures.

But the dusty world full of shady characters, where life isn't worth much, carried them through.

 

The overall feeling of the dusty western magic is largely what Red Dead Redemption has.

The plot is very good in Rockstar standards, but pretty darn shoddy otherwise. The characters likewise.

I'd say what people remember from it 10 yrs from now, is how darn neat it was to ride around the plains.

[Zane]

For me it's definitely a mixture of setting and character progression. Combat has to be fun and appealing as well, I won't play a game with crap combat

[frame06]

Most important factor for making a great rpg is beta testing, user-developer communication. And on that bombshell I volunteer for that task. I dont require payment for my work and offer my full honesty and objectivity on the game.

[JFSOCC]

Most important factor for making a great rpg is beta testing, user-developer communication. And on that bombshell I volunteer for that task. I dont require payment for my work and offer my full honesty and objectivity on the game.

As I think will everyone here

[Crystal]

Almost no votes for Graphics, Combat and Skills? I'm beginning to think that you have in mind a book instead a videogame! For me is everything, in the following proportion and order of importance:

 

[3/3] A Game Editor!

[3/3] Atmosphere

[3/3] Graphics

[2/3] Combat

[2/3] Advancement

[1/3] Character Development

[1/3] Choice-Consequence

[1/3] Plot

 

Sacred have no choice-consequence, nor development, nor plot, but you can’t stop playing them. Then advancement and combat are the fulcrum of any RPG. And the best probably is the atmosphere that maintains us playing and thinking about the game the rest of the day. Finally, the Graphics are what define a video-game, but I don’t know why is the feature most despised, if I will spend hundreds of hours in a game, I prefer doing it in gorgeous environments with a beautiful character.

 

But nothing compares to an Editor to improve and customize all aspects; I enjoyed all kind of mods for Dragon Age, from customizing my skills to let Zevran joins earlier to my party, and much more. Mods are the must-have for any RPG.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Crystal

[jamoecw]

Almost no votes for Graphics, Combat and Skills? I'm beginning to think that you have in mind a book instead a videogame! For me is everything, in the following proportion and order of importance:

 

[3/3] A Game Editor!

[3/3] Atmosphere

[3/3] Graphics

[2/3] Combat

[2/3] Advancement

[1/3] Character Development

[1/3] Choice-Consequence

[1/3] Plot

 

Sacred have no choice-consequence, nor development, nor plot, but you can’t stop playing them. Then advancement and combat are the fulcrum of any RPG. And the best probably is the atmosphere that maintains us playing and thinking about the game the rest of the day. Finally, the Graphics are what define a video-game, but I don’t know why is the feature most despised, if I will spend hundreds of hours in a game, I prefer doing it in gorgeous environments with a beautiful character.

 

But nothing compares to an Editor to improve and customize all aspects; I enjoyed all kind of mods for Dragon Age, from customizing my skills to let Zevran joins earlier to my party, and much more. Mods are the must-have for any RPG.

sounds like halflife is your kind of RPG, perhaps the best editor out there, great atmosphere for its time, and a pioneer in graphics, many games used it's combat model, though character progression and such was lacking enough that people didn't consider it an rpg, system shock 2 was better in that regard, but generally isn't considered a rpg by players.  personally i'd consider it a poor rpg, though a fun game.  i consider dwarf fortress a fun game as well, and it has the worst graphics around, though i don't consider it an rpg (at least not the fort mode).  not bashing your taste, just suggesting a game you might really like, perhaps even a genre.  some FPS focus on your points 2-4, some of those have point 1 as well, and when they do it tends to be pretty substantial.

[frame06]

I do want book like rpg, same kind as Baldur's gate and Ice Wind Dale series. I want to feel like i'm in Neverending story. I do find story telling the most important segment of any rpg, and I don't find it necessary to say that graphics, combat, atmosphere and stuff like that are important coz I've seen the names of people that work on project. I know all that is taken care of. and i want to do alpha testing to. Where can one apply?

[Zixu]

I like a good story with plenty of choices that have actual impact. It doesn't all have to factor into the ending, but the choices and their consequences are what make multiple playthroughs so appealing. I can forgive some gameplay flaws if the storytelling is good. Alpha Protocol for example is a pretty flawed game gameplay-wise (and those bugs, oh god those bugs..), but I just love the hell out of it despite that. Plenty of choices, and those have actual impact. Even the choices you don't know you're making can have impact, at least on a conversational level, and because of that it's always fun to start a new playthrough. That is something I wish so bad that other game developers started doing. In, for example, Mass Effect 3, your personality makes no difference to anything, and all the choices that make that playthrough different are made in one line of dialogue that you pick. I still love the game, but Bioware could still learn something from Alpha Protocol. And I certainly hope PE will make use of those lessons too! I assume many of the team worked on AP after all.

 

But good gameplay certainly makes any RPG that much better. Torment for example is just a step away from perfection because the combat is so tedious. 

[Ulquiorra]

How to create best rpg ?

 

Add him

 

[TrashMan]

IMMURSION..and atmosphere.

 

However, I have to point out that mechanics are part of the immersion/atmosphere.

 

This is why DA never realy clicked fully for me. The redicolous item progresion and character attribute system just keep ruining it for me.

[Failion]

Marketing can make a rpg great. Personally I think Bethesda is genius what they did in making skyrim to make sell well. They really hyped the whole dragonborn thing to the point of cheese. Where the dragonborn is the epitome of masculinity and is equivalent to a WWE champion. Millions of Americans watch and admire these qualities. Which gave the game a huge appeal and casuals and veteran gamers bought the game in mass. 

[Kjaamor]

The fact that it is a multitude of factors is painfully obvious, so much so that it really takes the meat out of the proverbial poll sandwich. I chose to ignore that option.

 

...and went for character advancement/levelling.

 

...unless we're talking jRPGs (:D) in which case it's character development.

 

Play to your strengths, would be my reasoning.

[Ffordesoon]

Marketing can make a rpg great.

...

 

I really hope you're being sarcastic.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Ffordesoon

[Lephys]

 

Marketing can make a rpg great.

...

 

I really hope you're being sarcastic.

 

Methinks that perhaps he meant successful-great, rather than quality-great. 8P

[WotanAnubis]

I voted for Plot, but Character Development is a very close second. A good Atmosphere and interesting world is a not too distant third.

 

Choice & Consequence is certainly nice to have, but it's not essential.

[Crystal]

Almost no votes for Graphics, Combat and Skills? I'm beginning to think that you have in mind a book instead a videogame! For me is everything, in the following proportion and order of importance:

 

[3/3] A Game Editor!

[3/3] Atmosphere

[3/3] Graphics

[2/3] Combat

[2/3] Advancement

[1/3] Character Development

[1/3] Choice-Consequence

[1/3] Plot

 

Sacred have no choice-consequence, nor development, nor plot, but you can’t stop playing them. Then advancement and combat are the fulcrum of any RPG. And the best probably is the atmosphere that maintains us playing and thinking about the game the rest of the day. Finally, the Graphics are what define a video-game, but I don’t know why is the feature most despised, if I will spend hundreds of hours in a game, I prefer doing it in gorgeous environments with a beautiful character.

 

But nothing compares to an Editor to improve and customize all aspects; I enjoyed all kind of mods for Dragon Age, from customizing my skills to let Zevran joins earlier to my party, and much more. Mods are the must-have for any RPG.

 

sounds like halflife is your kind of RPG, perhaps the best editor out there, great atmosphere for its time, and a pioneer in graphics, many games used it's combat model, though character progression and such was lacking enough that people didn't consider it an rpg, system shock 2 was better in that regard, but generally isn't considered a rpg by players.  personally i'd consider it a poor rpg, though a fun game.  i consider dwarf fortress a fun game as well, and it has the worst graphics around, though i don't consider it an rpg (at least not the fort mode).  not bashing your taste, just suggesting a game you might really like, perhaps even a genre.  some FPS focus on your points 2-4, some of those have point 1 as well, and when they do it tends to be pretty substantial.

 

I don’t like linear and boring shooter adventures, jumping from here to there doing ever the same things. I prefer RPG of any kind, since Sacred till Dragon Age, and I discovered the pattern of importance that I described there, but I accept others points of view as well. What I don’t understand enough is why in video-game communities many people seem to despise graphics, it has no sense to me. Maybe pen & paper RPG would be the best way to play a RPG, but in computer are many more useful resources.

[Kjaamor]

I don’t like linear and boring shooter adventures, jumping from here to there doing ever the same things. I prefer RPG of any kind, since Sacred till Dragon Age, and I discovered the pattern of importance that I described there, but I accept others points of view as well. What I don’t understand enough is why in video-game communities many people seem to despise graphics, it has no sense to me. Maybe pen & paper RPG would be the best way to play a RPG, but in computer are many more useful resources.

 

Historically, RPGs were pretty much at the back end of graphics, given that the whole concept effectively stems from pen-and-paper games. There is also the not unreasonable assumption that good graphics means full 3d. While there is definitely an experience to be had of walking through a fantasy world in the first-person perspective, combat in such games doesn't tend to be as decision-based and tactical as those in the isometric form. In essence, the assumption is by focusing on graphics you're already stepping away from a system that provides intelligent, number-based gameplay.

 

The other assumption for this I could offer, is that games that look pretty tend to sell well across all target audiences. RPGs that look great tend to marketed and designed to cross genres and bring in extra fans than just the RP community. To do so, the P&P mechanics get watered down further and further until you have third-person shooters with a few RPG-lite elements like Mass Effect being voted RPG of the year, redesigning the genre, and making it bloody impossible to find a tactical pcRPG ever since.

 

All of which is really why the kickstarter campaigns for things like P:E and Wasteland 2 have been so successful.

[jamoecw]

I don’t like linear and boring shooter adventures, jumping from here to there doing ever the same things. I prefer RPG of any kind, since Sacred till Dragon Age, and I discovered the pattern of importance that I described there, but I accept others points of view as well. What I don’t understand enough is why in video-game communities many people seem to despise graphics, it has no sense to me. Maybe pen & paper RPG would be the best way to play a RPG, but in computer are many more useful resources.

 

 

so:

#1 - diversity

#2 - non-linearity

[3/3] A Game Editor!

[3/3] Atmosphere

[3/3] Graphics

[2/3] Combat

[2/3] Advancement

[1/3] Character Development

[1/3] Choice-Consequence

[1/3] Plot

 #? - dialog

 #? - control scheme

 #? - GUI

 #? - balance

 #? - technical options

 #? - gameplay options

 #? - environment interactivity

 #? - personalization

 #? - intuitiveness

 #? - community

 #? - netcode

 #? - multiplayer support

 

i am probably forgetting a few, but overall i figured you left them out due to their lack of importance.  which makes it look like you didn't care much about things that made rpgs rpgs.  i am not saying that liking graphics and such is bad, just seemed like you were shoehorned into rpgs somehow and didn't know of other genres (at least decent games from other genres) that fit your list better.  i started playing league of legends because my little brother was into it, it has great pacing for an arpg, a good selection of heroes, item customization that matters, an excellent control scheme, a decent gui, decent graphics, and easy matchmaking.  that being said it lacks in all other areas, and being a massively online game it lacks good netcode and overall multiplayer support, and features one of the worst communities online, which are of prime importance for a MO.  being competitive it lacks balance, being of prime importance in any competitive game (regardless of being online or even a video game).  it fails in areas that i really care about in general, and in the areas i feel are important for the genre in specific as well, but it does do some things right.  so if i was making an arpg i'd definitely look at it to help improve a game that was targeted for a different audience (like me for instance).  what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand you ask?  well it has to do your list and the general reaction to it.  most people who play rpgs like them over fpss, which then makes them form comparisons between the two.  game executives do the same.  so when fpss sell more executives try to make rpgs more like fpss, which due to the rpg fans' observations makes them more like something they don't like, they fall back on the conclusion that it has the same drawbacks of fpss, which may or may not be true.  thus to an rpg fan fps is derogatory, and vice versa.  so when someone suggests that a game should improve an aspect that fpss have over rpgs they tend to get belittled, which you thought due to my suggestion that you look at fps based on what you like amounted to.  all in all carefully breaking down the components into their individual parts help find out what needs to be focused on, some phrases typically used are pretty general to things that separate an rpg from some other genre, and thus are just buzz words.  the OP made this mistake with his poll, ultimately when you made the list you left out things that to you make an rpg an rpg, both result in not actually reflecting on why we play rpgs, and how to strengthen them as a video game in general without losing why we like them.

[Failion]

Graphics are very important. Most people here probably love isometric style graphics and 2D and are here because of them. You can appreciate the graphic engine,style, camera the game uses as much as the story and rpg mechanics. The new unreal engine 4 looks amazing and I believe can revive old school franchises like wizardry to attract new gamers and old fans.  With high production values could achieve Something like legends of grimrock but much more depth and 3x better.