Weapon Motion Capture Proposal

[TheHunter1337]

Hi Project Eternity team,

 

Combat in most modern games, especially the hand-to-hand combat in fantasy games is portrayed in an extremely inaccurate fashion.  Cuts with swords and pole arms are done in inefficient ways which would never have worked with the real weapons.  I am a member of Kron Martial Arts, a group here in Southern California that practices Historical European Martial Arts.  Everything we do is taken from manuscripts written in the Medieval and Renaissance periods, we don't make things up.  If you are interested, I could provide you with skilled practitioners of many weapons in Project Eternity to be motion captured.  (We also have a fairly large assortment of real weapons that your artists could get to handle and look at if that would help with modelling.) This would help to make Project Eternity look better, and lend you a type of authenticity that many games are yet to implement.  

 

I've funded the Kickstarter campaign myself, and can't wait to play Project Eternity.  Having attacks that are proven to be correct would definitely make the game more fun for myself and many others out there.  Let me know if you'd like our help with this, and I'd be happy to oblige. 

 

-RJ 

[Alexjh]

I suspect that motion capture is fairly unlikely for P:E unless Obsidian have their own inhouse motion capture studio: as I understand it mo-cap is a pretty expensive process and P:Es budget is pretty small by modern standards.  It's not impossible, but given the size of the characters on the screen I'm thinking it's not especially probable.  That's not to say however that havign reference footage of you using weapons might not be beneficial, but I wouldn't rely on accurate weapon usage - one of the reasons weapons in games aren't realistic is that they get enhanced for both dramaticness and easy readability when looking at a screen. 

[TheHunter1337]

I suspect that motion capture is fairly unlikely for P:E unless Obsidian have their own inhouse motion capture studio: as I understand it mo-cap is a pretty expensive process and P:Es budget is pretty small by modern standards.  It's not impossible, but given the size of the characters on the screen I'm thinking it's not especially probable.  That's not to say however that havign reference footage of you using weapons might not be beneficial, but I wouldn't rely on accurate weapon usage - one of the reasons weapons in games aren't realistic is that they get enhanced for both dramaticness and easy readability when looking at a screen. 

 

Alexjh, while I would be inclined to agree with you, I have toured Obsidian's studio twice, and I've seen their mocap room  I'm also friends with a few people there, just not anyone on the P.E. team.  And I'm very aware of the dramatic flare added to movements, but I can tell you that by following the correct movements, it actually makes the combat look more interesting and flow together much better.  There is a well written article in this issue of Game Developer magazine talking about it, with a compelling argument for why game developers should consider it.  I wouldn't usually ask a developer to consider this, but I really like Obsidian, they've done a lot for me as a student, and I would like to give back while making a game better. 

[C2B]

I suspect that motion capture is fairly unlikely for P:E unless Obsidian have their own inhouse motion capture studio: as I understand it mo-cap is a pretty expensive process and P:Es budget is pretty small by modern standards.  It's not impossible, but given the size of the characters on the screen I'm thinking it's not especially probable.  That's not to say however that havign reference footage of you using weapons might not be beneficial, but I wouldn't rely on accurate weapon usage - one of the reasons weapons in games aren't realistic is that they get enhanced for both dramaticness and easy readability when looking at a screen. 

 

They actually DO have an inhouse motion capture studio. Though, I can imagine there still being several costs associated with it. Not to mention how big would the benefit even be for P:E considering its perspective.

 

Offer's great though.

Edited February 17, 2013 by C2B

[Pipyui]

I think Alexjh might of hit the head on this one.  I imagine Obsidian doesn't quite have the budget to rent out a motion capture studio, and while they could possibly spend some money out of pocket, considering the size of the characters as they will appear on screen, I don't see this as being very likely (or particularly cost effective).  Continuing to restate exactly as Alexjh has already put forth though, reference footage for the animators could prove helpful.  Especially, I would imagine, footages of various weapon attack sequences - since this could maybe help animators build flowing attack sequences that look somewhat realistic and natural.  Just my 0.5 cent though.

[Nonek]

The motion capture added a fair bit to the Witcher 2, real lot of human elements, but will we see the detail on such a small level as the Eternity engine uses? In an ideal world i'd love to see such a thing included, and heartily applaud the generous nature of the offer, whether it's successful or not.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Nonek

[Duke]

Alexjh, while I would be inclined to agree with you, I have toured Obsidian's studio twice, and I've seen their mocap room  I'm also friends with a few people there, just not anyone on the P.E. team.  

 

If you're friends with people there, wouldn't that be a much better way to contact them rather than making a forum thread which there's every chance nobody on the team will read?

[IndiraLightfoot]

This is a very nice offer, and hopefully they will get in touch with you guys! 

However, like I just replied in the thread about LAN-support, I want the Obsids to focus on making PE first, and if this means that the combat animations are a bit repetitive and lackluster, so be it, coz it's not a priority, it's merely a matter of a nice polish to the game, at least that is what I think.

[TheHunter1337]

This is a very nice offer, and hopefully they will get in touch with you guys! 

However, like I just replied in the thread about LAN-support, I want the Obsids to focus on making PE first, and if this means that the combat animations are a bit repetitive and lackluster, so be it, coz it's not a priority, it's merely a matter of a nice polish to the game, at least that is what I think.

 

 

Yeah, I definitely agree if it'll hurt the development of the game it's not necessary, but based on the article that I referred to above, it's likely to actually cut down on development time.

 

 

Alexjh, while I would be inclined to agree with you, I have toured Obsidian's studio twice, and I've seen their mocap room  I'm also friends with a few people there, just not anyone on the P.E. team.  

 

If you're friends with people there, wouldn't that be a much better way to contact them rather than making a forum thread which there's every chance nobody on the team will read?

 

They told me that the forum is a better way to contact the P:E team, as they don't talk to each other very often.  Since it's a Kickstarter game, the devs are actually reading the forums. 

[Gavinfoxx]

You know there is a group doing fantastic motion capture for video game melee fighting already?

 

Clang by Subutai.  You could maybe try to license their motion capture animations? Eh, eh?

[TheHunter1337]

You know there is a group doing fantastic motion capture for video game melee fighting already?

 

Clang by Subutai.  You could maybe try to license their motion capture animations? Eh, eh?

Actually, they're attempting to recreate fighting in a 1 to 1 way using the razer hydra and whatnot.  And licensing their animations would be expensive, compared to just doing the mocap in house.

[JOG]

Yeah that's exactly what a professional developers need a cooperation with a bunch of amateurs...

 

Actually, most developers are amateurs when it comes to proper weapon design and combat techniques, even in the movies you rarely see a police officer or soldier handling his gun properly (in accordance with standard safety rules). For archaic weapons it's even worse, I've rarely seen a movie, let alone a game, where they actually used a sword-pommel for pommeling, instead the dagger, (short-)sword and longsword (aka 1½-hander) are all used for fencing as if they were rapiers.

 

That said, given the perspective and on-screen size of the combatants in PE, I don't think the game will gain much from realistic motion-captured animations.

[TheHunter1337]

Yeah that's exactly what a professional developers need a cooperation with a bunch of amateurs...

Harsh words for someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.  The guys doing clang are no more "professional" than I am.  I know the group that they're working with for inspiration, and what they do.  In fact I've already backed Clang, and discussed the progress with other HEMA groups.  

 

 

Yeah that's exactly what a professional developers need a cooperation with a bunch of amateurs...

 

Actually, most developers are amateurs when it comes to proper weapon design and combat techniques, even in the movies you rarely see a police officer or soldier handling his gun properly (in accordance with standard safety rules). For archaic weapons it's even worse, I've rarely seen a movie, let alone a game, where they actually used a sword-pommel for pommeling, instead the dagger, (short-)sword and longsword (aka 1½-hander) are all used for fencing as if they were rapiers.

 

That said, given the perspective and on-screen size of the combatants in PE, I don't think the game will gain much from realistic motion-captured animations.

Glad to hear someone who knows what I'm talking about.   I agree that the perspective and size may make it not as beneficial, but I want to leave it up to the devs.  If you're able to zoom in (akin to torchlight) while keeping the isometric view, then you'll definitely see them used.  And even if it's not extremely helpful for P:E, having the animations on file would be useful for any future games with swordplay (like Dungeon Seige).  Also, as I said we can bring in many examples of weapons and teach the animators/artists about how the weapons were used and felt, which can only help going forward on all projects.

[Jarmo]

Not to say motion capture wouldn't be a useful tool, but with the small characters I'd rather see somewhat exaggerated movements.

Maybe footage would work just as well? The important bit is to exaggerate the right movements, not some completely hilariously wrong way to do stuff.

 

Anywayses, I have no idea what obsidian is planning and what not. OP's message might be like a gift from the gods, or not.

Someone should maybe PM one of the dev crew? They do read the board, but I doubt they read every post because that's like a full time job.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Jarmo

[khango]

If you're looking a for groups that are well versed in European martial arts, particularly Renaissance, I think the Blackfriars (http://www.blackfriarsfencing.com/about.php) and the Diamond Rose (http://www.diamondroseacademie.org/) are very good, though obviously they aren't particularly tech oriented. There's also a really good group in the Bay Area, but I can't think of the name.

[Merlkir]

This sounds rather good. I mean, if they do have a mocap studio, it'd be a bit silly not to do it.

[AGX-17]

 

 

I suspect that motion capture is fairly unlikely for P:E unless Obsidian have their own inhouse motion capture studio: as I understand it mo-cap is a pretty expensive process and P:Es budget is pretty small by modern standards.  It's not impossible, but given the size of the characters on the screen I'm thinking it's not especially probable.  That's not to say however that havign reference footage of you using weapons might not be beneficial, but I wouldn't rely on accurate weapon usage - one of the reasons weapons in games aren't realistic is that they get enhanced for both dramaticness and easy readability when looking at a screen.

 

Alexjh, while I would be inclined to agree with you, I have toured Obsidian's studio twice, and I've seen their mocap room  I'm also friends with a few people there, just not anyone on the P.E. team.  And I'm very aware of the dramatic flare added to movements, but I can tell you that by following the correct movements, it actually makes the combat look more interesting and flow together much better.  There is a well written article in this issue of Game Developer magazine talking about it, with a compelling argument for why game developers should consider it.  I wouldn't usually ask a developer to consider this, but I really like Obsidian, they've done a lot for me as a student, and I would like to give back while making a game better.

 

 

Then why are you posting on the forums and not contacting your "friends" at Obsidian about this?

This sounds rather good. I mean, if they do have a mocap studio, it'd be a bit silly not to do it.

"If" being the operative term here. Considering the OP's claim to have "friends" at Obsidian, his choice to make this proposal on the forums makes that claim questionable at best. There was no apparent motion-captured animation in NV and they likely had a close to AAA budget for that. I find it highly unlikely that the OP has toured their offices, that Obsidian has their own motion capture studio, or that he is "friends" with multiple (or any,) Obsidian employees. If any of this were true he would have to be exceptionally mentally disabled to choose to post on the forums effectively anonymously rather than using direct lines of communication to his "friends." Edited March 7, 2013 by AGX-17

[Elerond]

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/inside-obsidian-entertainment-dark-cutting-edge-rpgs/

 

Here is article where Avellone tells that they have their own motion-capture and sound studios.

 

Obsidian's offices also include their own motion-capture studio and their own sound studio - two unusual features in a development studio this size. “It's really advantageous to be able to do all that stuff in house,” said Avellone.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Elerond

[TheHunter1337]

 

 

I suspect that motion capture is fairly unlikely for P:E unless Obsidian have their own inhouse motion capture studio: as I understand it mo-cap is a pretty expensive process and P:Es budget is pretty small by modern standards.  It's not impossible, but given the size of the characters on the screen I'm thinking it's not especially probable.  That's not to say however that havign reference footage of you using weapons might not be beneficial, but I wouldn't rely on accurate weapon usage - one of the reasons weapons in games aren't realistic is that they get enhanced for both dramaticness and easy readability when looking at a screen.

 

Alexjh, while I would be inclined to agree with you, I have toured Obsidian's studio twice, and I've seen their mocap room  I'm also friends with a few people there, just not anyone on the P.E. team.  And I'm very aware of the dramatic flare added to movements, but I can tell you that by following the correct movements, it actually makes the combat look more interesting and flow together much better.  There is a well written article in this issue of Game Developer magazine talking about it, with a compelling argument for why game developers should consider it.  I wouldn't usually ask a developer to consider this, but I really like Obsidian, they've done a lot for me as a student, and I would like to give back while making a game better.

 

Then why are you posting on the forums and not contacting your "friends" at Obsidian about this?

>This sounds rather good. I mean, if they do have a mocap studio, it'd be a bit silly not to do it.

"If" being the operative term here. Considering the OP's claim to have "friends" at Obsidian, his choice to make this proposal on the forums makes that claim questionable at best. There was no apparent motion-captured animation in NV and they likely had a close to AAA budget for that. I find it highly unlikely that the OP has toured their offices, that Obsidian has their own motion capture studio, or that he is "friends" with multiple (or any,) Obsidian employees. If any of this were true he would have to be exceptionally mentally disabled to choose to post on the forums effectively anonymously rather than using direct lines of communication to his "friends."

 

 

Hahahahahahaha this is way too funny.  Oh internets, how strange you are.  As I believe I posted, I contacted my "friends" first, however they are working on other titles at Obsidian right now, and contrary to what you may believe, the entire studio doesn't sit around talking to each other every day, they're divided up into different areas.  I was told that I should try the forum to get in touch with the guys working on P.E.  Your naivete about Obsidian and the game development business as a whole did make for a good laugh though.  

[AGX-17]

Hahahahahahaha this is way too funny.  Oh internets, how strange you are.  As I believe I posted, I contacted my "friends" first, however they are working on other titles at Obsidian right now, and contrary to what you may believe, the entire studio doesn't sit around talking to each other every day, they're divided up into different areas.  I was told that I should try the forum to get in touch with the guys working on P.E.  Your naivete about Obsidian and the game development business as a whole did make for a good laugh though.

It's a good thing post editing is locked after a certain amount of time, since you didn't post that you contacted your "friends" first or that they told you to try the forum. I mean, really. Come on. "Hey Feargus, I have a friend who does super hardcore medieval martial arts who's offerring to do motion capture for P:E for free!" is generally a more believable contact scenario than "Hey best friend who is a medieval martial artist, I don't have anything to do with P:E and I have no way of contacting anyone involved as we are imprisoned in sealed bunkers with no internet, email or phone service until the project is completed, so post it on the forums and hopefully someone on P:E will stumble accross it!"

[Gfted1]

^See post 9.