Russia tread

[Walsingham]

While I normally appreciate your open-mindedness, I draw the line at regarding ANY career in the SS as "prestigious".

 

But yes, only Lofoby seems to be claiming the pictures weren't propaganda. Which in any case is weird since the Soviets were hardly strangers to lunatic propaganda posters.

[obyknven]

While I normally appreciate your open-mindedness, I draw the line at regarding ANY career in the SS as "prestigious".

This guy actually is not Waffen SS soldier. He is just a Norwegian nazi scum who make career as propagandist. This  "blond-haired and blue-eyed true aryan" shortly visited East front only as war reporter (Kriegsberichter) and propaganda-maker (Unterscharfuhrer).

I hope you understand difference between be rotten alive on battlefields of East front and drinking wine in company of prostitutes somewhere in HQ.

 

 

But yes, only Lofoby seems to be claiming the pictures weren't propaganda. Which in any case is weird since the Soviets were hardly strangers to lunatic propaganda posters.

My error, it's just unbeliveable for me when some people liki Nazi propaganda. In such situation i just suggested what they don't understand what is this really.

 

Ok, lets post other examples of epic Axis "art". Itallian propagandists are "best" in this:

 

Evil Soviets use own Neanderthal women as live shild - brave Nazi soldier's save them.

 

Brave Italian soldiers stop attack of unknown Soviet wunderwaffe.

 

Soviet soldiers help to Nazi kill Soviet civilians. Arrr! They are so evil.

 

 

Soviet soldiers surrender! Epic machinegun with bayonet also.

 

Evil Soviet soldiers on US tank use German girls as live shield in "Mad Max" style.

 

Brave stupid German Young warrior try destroy Soviet tank but make error and hit own Panther tank.

[NOK222]

 

 

 I draw the line at regarding ANY career in the SS as "prestigious".

 

They were in the wrong side of history, but in their socio economic context it was a prestigious career. 

[Tagaziel]

While I normally appreciate your open-mindedness, I draw the line at regarding ANY career in the SS as "prestigious".

(Some) Latvians and Estonians may beg to differ, seeing how it was their only option for fighting for a free country. Even the Germans knew that they were hated by the Baltic states and the only reason they fought alongside the SS was because the Soviets were worse.

 

I'm generally against making absolute statements. Michael Wittmann had a very respectable career as a tank commander.

 

But yes, only Lofoby seems to be claiming the pictures weren't propaganda. Which in any case is weird since the Soviets were hardly strangers to lunatic propaganda posters.

Or projection:

 

 

More here.

 

Cue oby barging in and screaming that Stalin was a gentle ruler and the Soviet Union was the freedomest nation on Earth until 1953.

[Zoraptor]

Any Latvian or Estonian or Lithuanian who fought for the Germans thinking they were getting a 'free' country from the deal was a moron of the first order. I'd suspect that rather more were the types that decided the arrival of the Germans was a good time for pogroming the local jews and anyone else suspected of being vaguely Bolshie, things that have tended to get rather swept under the carpet of history as incovenient. Genuine 'freedom fighters' (always a rofltastic term; especially given some of the Balts current apartheidist policies show how much they're really interested in 'freedom') were asterisked from the get go.

 

And Oby bro, that's a KV-2, not a wunderwaffe.

[HoonDing]

Stop posting propaganda. Post more nubile Prussian women.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Drudanae

[Monte Carlo]

http://www.funkertactical.com/fpsrussia-releases-new-video-after-9-months/

 

In Russia, shotguns shoot you!

[Tagaziel]

Any Latvian or Estonian or Lithuanian who fought for the Germans thinking they were getting a 'free' country from the deal was a moron of the first order. I'd suspect that rather more were the types that decided the arrival of the Germans was a good time for pogroming the local jews and anyone else suspected of being vaguely Bolshie, things that have tended to get rather swept under the carpet of history as incovenient. Genuine 'freedom fighters' (always a rofltastic term; especially given some of the Balts current apartheidist policies show how much they're really interested in 'freedom') were asterisked from the get go.

That's a pretty asinine stance to take, Zoraptor, uncharacteristic of your usually reasonable stance. What other options did the Balts have? The Soviet occupation of the Baltic states was brutal and instituted widespread terror, enough to make the Nazi occupants seem like liberators. Dismissing the Baltic legions as all antisemites and bloodthirsty freaks is a pretty ridiculous oversimplification and an insult to everyone who served honorably with the Baltic legions.

 

You have to consider the unique situation of the Baltic legions. Latvians and Estonians who served with the SS did so for Latvia and Estonia, not Nazi Germany. Even the Germans recognized that fact:

 

They are first and foremost Latvians. They want a sustainable Latvian nation state. Forced to choose between Germany and Russia, they have chosen Germany, because they seek co-operation with western civilization. The rule of the Germans seems to them to be the lesser of two evils.

From Adolf Ax, Obergruppenfuhrer, 15th Division.

 

After the Soviet Union were defeated, they wanted independence, like they broke off from the failing Russian Empire in 1918. The plausibility of such an action is debatable, but cannot be ignored. Especially when you consider the fact that while Waffen-SS was declared a criminal organization, both the Latvian and Estonian Legions were treated as an exception.

 

The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the [uS Displaced Persons] Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.

That's not to say that there weren't **** among the Latvian population, like the utter psychopath Konrad Arajs and his goons. However, that fact shouldn't obscure the unique nature of the Baltic SS Legions.

 

Also, don't forget that the SS was a very large organization and it's easy to confuse the Legions with one of a myriad of organizations operating under its aegis, like the aforementioned Hilfspolizei.

 

And Oby bro, that's a KV-2, not a wunderwaffe.

Do you think oby will let a little thing like facts stand in the way of his agitprop efforts?

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

Do you think oby will let a little thing like facts stand in the way of his agitprop trolling efforts?

 

Thought I'd fix that for you.

[Tagaziel]

Poe's Law, I guess.

[Walsingham]

And Oby bro, that's a KV-2, not a wunderwaffe.

 

Which would be perfectly obvious to anyone actually from Russia. Or anyone who plays too many ww2 games.

[Gorgon]

Any Latvian or Estonian or Lithuanian who fought for the Germans thinking they were getting a 'free' country from the deal was a moron of the first order. I'd suspect that rather more were the types that decided the arrival of the Germans was a good time for pogroming the local jews and anyone else suspected of being vaguely Bolshie, things that have tended to get rather swept under the carpet of history as incovenient. Genuine 'freedom fighters' (always a rofltastic term; especially given some of the Balts current apartheidist policies show how much they're really interested in 'freedom') were asterisked from the get go.

 

And Oby bro, that's a KV-2, not a wunderwaffe.

I dunno, I suspect they thought their chances were better if they wound up on the winning side. They weren't savey enough to play both outcomes like the Finnish though. The creation of non German SS divisions was a political priority due to the troop shortage.  

[obyknven]

 

And Oby bro, that's a KV-2, not a wunderwaffe.

 

Which would be perfectly obvious to anyone actually from Russia. Or anyone who plays too many ww2 games.

 

KV-2 have different hull and turret. Which would be perfectly obvious to anyone actually from Russia.

Tank on Italian poster more looks like bastard version of t-26.

 

Moar info about Finn Wigforss. On Eastern front he serve in Propaganda-Kompanien in rank of Unterscharfuhrer.

http://www.galleria.thule-italia.com/Arte/Wigforss/wigforss.html

 

Typical  task of PKs is spreadin of antisemitic propaganda, but on East front they also has been ordered to cooperate with the Einsatzgruppen. As in the case of the PKs, the propaganda specialists in the Einsatzgruppen were also to receive professional directives for their work directly from the OKW Propaganda Department. 

Cooperation was not restricted to propaganda. The PKs had various technical means at their disposal that could assist the Einsatzgruppen in carrying out their mission of mass murder. This was part of the Wehrmacht’s logistical assistance for implementing the mass slaughter in the East.

 

Moar about these bastards from PK's you can read here in this research.

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%202021.pdf

 

In other words this Finn Wigforss is very "nice" man, just a true hero for modern Europeans.  

 

Now some photos with real warrior's from SS Panzer Division Wiking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, lol, after such  propaganda posters it's really hard to recognise proud "nordic" SS Wiking's  in these men's.

[Tagaziel]

I dunno, I suspect they thought their chances were better if they wound up on the winning side. They weren't savey enough to play both outcomes like the Finnish though. The creation of non German SS divisions was a political priority due to the troop shortage.

You have to consider the fact that unlike Finland, Latvia and Estonia ceased to exist when the Soviet Union invaded in 1939 and suffered brutal Soviet occupation and extermination of the society's elite. Finland managed to maintain sovereignty.

[Gorgon]

And they probably would have become Soviet possessions after the war regardless.  If Hitler had had half a brain he would not have squandered people desperate for alliances. I mean at least make an effort to lie to them until the war was won. Same with the partisans in Russia.  

[Tagaziel]

And they probably would have become Soviet possessions after the war regardless.  If Hitler had had half a brain he would not have squandered people desperate for alliances. I mean at least make an effort to lie to them until the war was won. Same with the partisans in Russia.

Indeed. There were millions of Soviet POWs that could be set loose on Stalin. Maybe we should be grateful that Hitler was a military moron.

[Monte Carlo]

The German soldiers in the one-from-bottom photo are from the Wehrmacht. Both the dude with the Mp44 and the MG42 gunner have the national symbol (eagle) above their breast pockets. If they were SS it would be on the upper sleeve of their tunics.

 

You may now continue. That's a great photo, btw, if you're a bit of a WW2 kit spotter - Panther tank, late war gaiters / ankle boots and old-style jackboots, canvass webbing. I'd say the photo was late '44 or early '45.

[Zoraptor]

That's a pretty asinine stance to take, Zoraptor, uncharacteristic of your usually reasonable stance. What other options did the Balts have? The Soviet occupation of the Baltic states was brutal and instituted widespread terror, enough to make the Nazi occupants seem like liberators. Dismissing the Baltic legions as all antisemites and bloodthirsty freaks is a pretty ridiculous oversimplification and an insult to everyone who served honorably with the Baltic legions.

 

 

It's pretty consistent with what I think about a range of things, really. I despise the support of Pinochet and the defence of his repressive and murderous ways as being a 'lesser evil' too, for example. The Baltic SS Legions were SS, they fought for Hitler and Germany and were complicit in massive war crimes, even if the most massive ones were usually committed in previous roles- that's a fact. I have no doubt that some Balts fought bravely and honourably for their country, and justified their collaboration as such, but then I have no doubt that some Germans, even some in SS units, fought bravely and honourably too. You can say that about any group with a bad reputation, as mitigation of their badness it is utterly trivial.

 

Truth is that the Baltic SS Legions were made up largely of the sorts who had been previously helping to liquify the Balt's Jewish problems- the collaborationist police units and, indeed, Arajs' goons in the case of Lithuania. I don't have any interest in some sort of nationalist or persecutionist justification of that any more than I have for the Ustasi in Croatia (indeed, the Croats also had a lot of anti-fascists), I'm afraid.

 

KV-2 have different hull and turret. Which would be perfectly obvious to anyone actually from Russia.

Tank on Italian poster more looks like bastard version of t-26.

 

 

Yeah man, like totally different.

[Tagaziel]

It's pretty consistent with what I think about a range of things, really. I despise the support of Pinochet and the defence of his repressive and murderous ways as being a 'lesser evil' too, for example. The Baltic SS Legions were SS, they fought for Hitler and Germany and were complicit in massive war crimes, even if the most massive ones were usually committed in previous roles- that's a fact. I have no doubt that some Balts fought bravely and honourably for their country, and justified their collaboration as such, but then I have no doubt that some Germans, even some in SS units, fought bravely and honourably too. You can say that about any group with a bad reputation, as mitigation of their badness it is utterly trivial.

 

Truth is that the Baltic SS Legions were made up largely of the sorts who had been previously helping to liquify the Balt's Jewish problems- the collaborationist police units and, indeed, Arajs' goons in the case of Lithuania. I don't have any interest in some sort of nationalist or persecutionist justification of that any more than I have for the Ustasi in Croatia (indeed, the Croats also had a lot of anti-fascists), I'm afraid.

While I can understand your position, I don't think you're right in dismissing the entirety of the Baltic Legions as "just as bad as the SS." Again, the Latvians and Estonians had no choice and served in the military of the Third Reich either because it was their only option to do so or were pressed into service by German draft. For example, over 80% of Latvian members of the SS Legions were conscripts, not volunteers. When you consider the fact that the Peronkrust, the far right nationalist party that advocated segregation and persecution of non-Latvian minorities had a little over 5,000 members nationwide, the conclusion should be pretty clear.

 

You are also ignoring completely the difficult situation in the East, where people were between a rock and a hard place. It's very easy to judge people and condemn them where you do so with the benefit of hindsight, treating the very association with the Nazi authorities as enough to write people off as antisemites and bloothirsty war criminals. Unfortunately, this also means that you have to write off every German policeman off as well, no matter whether they were Orpo, Kripo, or Sipo. While the latter is understandable, the former two are pretty silly, considering that policemen had no choice in the matter when the police was folded under SS command. By extension, you're also condemning every single German, up to and including children that were mandatory members of Hitlerjugend or Bund Deutsche Madel, because they were affiliated with Nazi organizations.

 

Back on the topic of the Legions, you're also ignoring citations I provide. One, the Germans themselves understood that Latvians and Estonians had no love for them. Two, the U.S. recognized the Baltic Legions as a special case and did not condemn them along with the rest of the SS. In fact, former Latvian and Estonian SS legionnaires served as guards of Nazi war criminals during the Nuremberg trials and subsequently worked for the Western Allies, eg. during the Berlin Airlift.

 

In general, the consensus among historians and governments is that the Baltic Legions were a distinct entity that did not take part in war crimes, had a different ideology, motivation, and even equipment. The soldiers of the Legions from Latvia and Estonia were exempted from Nuremberg rulings. They were not accused of war crimes (some isolated accusations were levied, but were never proven, such as in Podgaje).

 

The problem stems from the fact that people (including you, unfortunately) fail to realize how the Latvian and Estonian forces were structured. The Legions were a military front line unit, not intended for police actions that resulted in war crimes. These were the domain of Hilfspolizei (Auxiliary Police) units and other paramilitary units operating in the Baltic States, which did include psychopaths like Konrad Arajs, but were not the Legion. While they were eventually folded into the Legion, the prevalent majority of the Legion troops were not psychopaths supporting a failed ideology and did not participate in atrocities.

 

Bottom line, unless you are smarter than historians, investigators, lawyers, and governments that handled the matter, I'll reject your black-and-white point of view.

[Zoraptor]

I'm not saying that every person in the SS Legions was bad, just that the legions themselves were. It's easy to say that they were not involved in war crimes- and it is, more or less, accurate to say so- but then they were commissioned well after most of the potential war crimes in their areas had already been committed, they tended to serve in their own regions after the German high tide mark so did not have the opportunities to do much (more) Random Russian Removal. If the Legions had been formed as the Germans arrived I have no doubt at all that they would have committed the same crimes the various ad hoc/ police/ collaborator/ militia groups- or German SS formations did- but they were formed far later, and largely from those groups.

 

I'll happily concede that 'bad' organisations have some 'good' people in them. But, the presence of good people does not transform a bad organisation into good any more than the presence of bad people in a good organisation makes it bad.

 

Frankly, the reason the Legions got special treatment after the war was Realpolitik. They were a convenient stick to beat the soviets with. Rather a lot of Germans got soft treatment from both sides for similar reasons.

[Tagaziel]

I'm not saying that every person in the SS Legions was bad, just that the legions themselves were. It's easy to say that they were not involved in war crimes- and it is, more or less, accurate to say so- but then they were commissioned well after most of the potential war crimes in their areas had already been committed, they tended to serve in their own regions after the German high tide mark so did not have the opportunities to do much (more) Random Russian Removal. If the Legions had been formed as the Germans arrived I have no doubt at all that they would have committed the same crimes the various ad hoc/ police/ collaborator/ militia groups- or German SS formations did- but they were formed far later, and largely from those groups.

 

I'll happily concede that 'bad' organisations have some 'good' people in them. But, the presence of good people does not transform a bad organisation into good any more than the presence of bad people in a good organisation makes it bad.

Just because they potentially could participate in war crimes doesn't make them automatically bad. I assume you're male. I am too. Does that mean we're both evil rapists, because we can use our penises for nefarious purposes?

 

Sarcasm aside, I'd like to ask you to show a source that shows that the Legions were predominantly formed out of existing SS auxiliaries. Given the size of the Legions in Estonia and Latvia (over 75,000 men), I find that rather incredible. Especially since the sources I can find indicate the formations were small (Arajs' was about 300 men) and were subordinated to German Einsatzgruppen.

 

That said, I'm not sure why we should even use the binary scale for a region with such a complex history.

 

Frankly, the reason the Legions got special treatment after the war was Realpolitik. They were a convenient stick to beat the soviets with. Rather a lot of Germans got soft treatment from both sides for similar reasons.

Or it was because the majority of the Legions was conscripted into service and forced to serve, but never followed the Nazi ideology. Anything can be construed as an expression of Realpolitik, but in this case, Occam's Razor offers a simpler solution.

[Walsingham]

I find it interesting that this is a Russia thread, and we're talking about the SS.

 

...When the current Russian President was a lieutenant colonel in the KGB. If we're going to discuss good and bad organisations surely it should be the KGB?

[Tagaziel]

I'm partial to discussing Czeka and the NKVD, though it'd be pretty one sided.

[Agiel]

A worthy addendum to the Mitchell And Webb pieces:

 

 

In addition, probably one of the most moving things I've read:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25589709

Edited January 14, 2014 by Agiel

[Malcador]

In addition, probably one of the most moving things I've read:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25589709

 

Thanks for the link.