Arena/Tournaments and Gladiator life style in PE

[Ulquiorra]

I raelly liked arenas in oblivion (only good part of the game) , gothic 3, fable 1 and 2, mount and blade .. i think it whoud be and itresting addon ... im vare interted what do you think about that idea ...

Edited January 31, 2013 by Ulquiorra

[rjshae]

Was there any human civilization besides the Romans that had gladiatorial arenas? The only similar example that springs to mind was that mesoamerican ball game with the stone rings. It may be appropriate to consider the cultural context before adding arenas.

[Ulquiorra]

 rjshae

 

Are you ignorant or simple sleepy ? And what about medieval TOURNAMENTS ? You had knights that was fighting on horses .. and not only .. useing wood swords or real weapons ... and if i remember corectly ... TOURNAMENTS have place from russia to potugal and every corner of european medival socaieties ...

 

 

You are simply aginst EVERYTHING ... im starting to think that you want PE to be card game

Edited January 31, 2013 by Ulquiorra

[rjshae]

I should have clarified that I meant ancient civilizations. My apologies.

 

As for what I'm opposed to: it's usually regarding excessive features that would likely require a lot of development effort without adding much, if anything, to the experience. I've been pretty consistent about that.

 

In this case though I was merely making conversation. You seem to have an issue with me though, so perhaps we can take this off line.

Edited January 31, 2013 by rjshae

[Ulquiorra]

I should have clarified that I meant ancient civilizations. My apologies.

 

A thats change everything but still i think that in asian sociacieties, where some king of tournaments or arenas (but noy in coloseum)

[LadyCrimson]

I don't generally care about such things in games myself, but don't mind if they're in there as optional things people can do to make money, gain fame, what have you.

[rjshae]

 

I should have clarified that I meant ancient civilizations. My apologies.

 

A thats change everything but still i think that in asian sociacieties, where some king of tournaments or arenas (but noy in coloseum)

 

Okay, so, in the case of gladiatorial arenas, was it purely militaristic societies that have acquired slaves through conquest? Or have there been other motivations? You cite the example of the knightly tournaments during the middle ages, but my understanding was that such events were limited to the nobility; peasants simply couldn't afford the accoutrements. Plus the Christian ethos probably wouldn't have allowed the beastly spectacle of gladiators slaughtering each other.

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

I should have clarified that I meant ancient civilizations. My apologies.

 

A thats change everything but still i think that in asian sociacieties, where some king of tournaments or arenas (but noy in coloseum)

 

Okay, so, in the case of gladiatorial arenas, was it purely militaristic societies that have acquired slaves through conquest? Or have there been other motivations? You cite the example of the knightly tournaments during the middle ages, but my understanding was that such events were limited to the nobility; peasants simply couldn't afford the accoutrements. Plus the Christian ethos probably wouldn't have allowed the beastly spectacle of gladiators slaughtering each other.

 

And thak god that PE will be fantasy game not historical game ...I liked arenas when heroes come and fight other wariors, monsters etc. Not becouse it was historicaly correct or have "Christian ethos" but becouse it was fun and in some way athomspheric ...

[AGX-17]

Arenas are one of the most tired tropes of fantasy gaming. They didn't have battle arenas in the high medieval/early renaissance era which P:E is meant to model. They have no place in P:E on that basis alone. Gladiatorial combat and so-on ended with the Roman Empire. A tourney was an event organized by nobles for the nobility, these were held in open fields owned by nobles and so on. They weren't public spectacles meant to entertain the shiftless masses like in ancient Rome.

 

The ancient Hellenes and many cultures, both civilized and pre-agricultural did entertain themselves with sport of kinds like wrestling bouts, but this was wrestling in the old style, not the fake TV kind. And it was certainly not meant to be lethal, because in these societies a physically fit, strong male was a valuable asset to the community.

 

And so far as the East is concerned, the ancient Chinese valued intellectual pursuits above all else, and the highest honor most people hoped for was for their sons to become government bureaucrats. They, too had, sport, but not bloodsports like in ancient Rome. In the greater Far Eastern region, martial arts were not public spectacle. Things seen as "sport" today like Kendo were simply swordsmanship training/practice in schools of swordsmanship.

Edited February 1, 2013 by AGX-17

[Ulquiorra]

Arenas are one of the most tired tropes of fantasy gaming. They didn't have battle arenas in the high medieval/early renaissance era which P:E is meant to model. They have no place in P:E on that basis alone. Gladiatorial combat and so-on ended with the Roman Empire. A tourney was an event organized by nobles for the nobility, these were held in open fields owned by nobles and so on. They weren't public spectacles meant to entertain the shiftless masses like in ancient Rome.

 

The ancient Hellenes and many cultures, both civilized and pre-agricultural did entertain themselves with sport of kinds like wrestling bouts, but this was wrestling in the old style, not the fake TV kind. And it was certainly not meant to be lethal, because in these societies a physically fit, strong male was a valuable asset to the community.

 

Im pretty convinced that they wooden arenas or "Fighting grounds" (mostly a big circle) ... besides .. i think they use woodden sword (to not kill) but infindels and criminals propably where somethimes fighting with real weapons on ech other .. but if so thats was rulers decision not part of the culture.

[Dwarfare]

But they 'did' have Ciphers and magic in the medieval era, so...

 

Pick an era to help the player get their feet under them, yes, but don't use that era to limit the enjoyment of the player or the expansiveness of your setting.  Anyhow, I hardly find it difficult to believe that people in this sort of era would lack the sort of warriors who would like to prove their worth to the adulation of hundreds of fans, and crowds that have a taste for bloodsport.  People of great talent and ability often want recognition, and how better to achieve that than showing off to a crowd of tens of thousands chanting your name?  Hell, even today we've got professional sports, fencing, boxing, martial arts, etc.  In ye olden times, they very likely had tournaments of martial prowess, jousting, melee's, archery, that sort of thing. 

 

Just speaking for myself, I very much enjoy arenas as a combat challenge, but not lifeless arenas and are just "Fight enemy X.  Alright, is he dead?  Okay.  Fight enemy Y." and then repeat until bored.  Put some story to it, some reaction from the crowds, unexpected challenges, underhanded tactics, that sort of thing.  Spice it up!

[maggotheart]

A port city known for its criminal underworld and frequented by slavers and pirates might have illegal fighting rings that bet money on dogs, monsters and occasionally slaves. Brutal, (though bare fisted and generally nonlethal) no holds barred pit/cage fighting could also take place there.

[AGX-17]

But they 'did' have Ciphers and magic in the medieval era, so...

 

Pick an era to help the player get their feet under them, yes, but don't use that era to limit the enjoyment of the player or the expansiveness of your setting.  Anyhow, I hardly find it difficult to believe that people in this sort of era would lack the sort of warriors who would like to prove their worth to the adulation of hundreds of fans, and crowds that have a taste for bloodsport.  People of great talent and ability often want recognition, and how better to achieve that than showing off to a crowd of tens of thousands chanting your name?  Hell, even today we've got professional sports, fencing, boxing, martial arts, etc.  In ye olden times, they very likely had tournaments of martial prowess, jousting, melee's, archery, that sort of thing. 

 

Just speaking for myself, I very much enjoy arenas as a combat challenge, but not lifeless arenas and are just "Fight enemy X.  Alright, is he dead?  Okay.  Fight enemy Y." and then repeat until bored.  Put some story to it, some reaction from the crowds, unexpected challenges, underhanded tactics, that sort of thing.  Spice it up!

Cool strawman. I already addressed the fact that while they did have medieval tournaments these were a noble affair. The peasantry got their entertainment from other sources (drinking, festivals, whores, fighting amongst themselves in alleys, bars, streets, etc.) The nobility felt no obligation to entertain these people as these people were their property. What you clearly don't understand is that the world of medieval Europe was not the same world as that of ancient Rome. There was no centralized nation-state with a need to pacify a massive population of free citizens, the church was the locus of power and (no surprise,) would not tolerate such a thing as a gladiatorial arena even if there were the money and impetus among the nobility to construct such a thing.

 

Human desire and reality are not always in agreement. Getting back to my original point...

 

Battle arenas are as tired a cliche of fantasy RPGs on both sides of the pacific as it gets. I already explained that there are opportunities for alternatives among societies not based on that of high-medieval/early Renaissance Europe, as well as informal affairs.

Edited February 1, 2013 by AGX-17

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

No.

[Brother Pain]

I loved the "arenas" (dojos, proving rings, boxing matches, etc.) of games like Fallout 2 and Arcanum, and felt that tournaments added a good deal of enjoyment to Mount and Blade as well.

And I'd guess nearly every civilization since at least the ancient Greeks have had some sort of this, be it for training soldiers, sparring, underground matches, punishment for slaves, pure entertainment or what not. It just depends on how narrowly you define it honestly.

Mind you, I'd prefer that it wasn't something every character was forced to use. If I build a fighter-type that's excellent in combat, it's fun, if I play a squishy mage hiding behind the meat shields tougher party members it might not be so fun. In Arcanum you could use other means to avoid having to enter the fighting pits if you preferred, and in many other games doings these fights were completely optional.

Btw, the easiest way to do arenas are regular fights in a small area with xp/money gained after slaying the opponents, but the idea of having a proper tournament could be cool if there's time to implement it. As for such only being accessible to the rich, this shouldn't be a problem for an adventurer that's gained their own stronghold

[JFSOCC]

I don't particularly care about the realism of it. Gladiatorial combat can be a fun way of honing your skills, gaining some cash/reputation, and perhaps it can help advance one or two quests as well. Just make it so that losing doesn't involve party death. 

 

But, and this is important to me, don't have a straight list of x amount of fights and then "finished"

in many ways this should be a minigame which you could keep playing.

 

I would limit xp you can get, however.

[Wirdjos]

While the continued historical arguments are important and even necessary, we do have to remember that this will be a world where (presumably) bands of adventurers are a thing. It is also my impression that adventuring parties will be a fairly common phenomenon (mostly based on IE games). Thus the historical has to be adjusted for that cultural difference.

 

While I understand the argument that fighting arenas have been done quite a bit already (just look at the number of examples in the OP), I find them to be fun and think they could fit in with a world of adventurers. I'm not interested in fighting for the feature as I agree with rjshae to an extent and don't want time/money being wasted on anything that is not directly suited to this game. It would probably make great expansion/modding content though.

[Sacred_Path]

Was there any human civilization besides the Romans that had gladiatorial arenas? The only similar example that springs to mind was that mesoamerican ball game with the stone rings. It may be appropriate to consider the cultural context before adding arenas.

IIRC ancient scholars commented on the tradition of "show" fighting being prevalent among the Celts, both the "mock combat" and the serious kind. They lacked the architectural underpinning of Roman arenas, of course.