The role of diviniation in a CRPG?

[rjshae]

One of the elements I recall with a certain fondness from the table-top experience is the role that cleric divination spells played in the game. Being able to stand before the entrance to a dungeon and augur whether it would be a favorable or hazardous experience, added a lot to the magical flavour of the game. Now I wonder whether something similar could be done with a CRPG, albeit in a more limited fashion. Could a divination spell be used, for example, to determine whether a particular site is something that we are capable of handling, or is it much too dangerous for our current party level. Likewise, are we on the "correct" path for our destiny? Or is this just a side trek?

 

What do you think? Does divination have any role in a game of this type? How can it be implemented in a sensible manner?

[Ieo]

There were two spells in BG2 I vaguely remember that would allow you to magically divine various dangers in a given area. I only used one of those once (I think it cleared the fog of war in the target area) and the other one I remember was Wizard Eye, which isn't quite the same.

 

The biggest issue as to whether it's even worthwhile to include divination mechanics is replay value, something that isn't part of the tabletop scene with free roleplay and a good GM. Unless there is randomized content, these things are probably only used in the first playthrough, if at all--because stealthy scouts can cover much of the same function.

[Sacred_Path]

- spells that give a vague hint of how many enemies are on a given quadrant

 

- spells that indicate how safe it is to rest in a certain spot

 

- a luck modifier that changes daily/ weekly and can be predicted by divination (boo, hiss?)

[Nonek]

As well as Wizard Eye, Legend Lore and other such divinatory powers, aimed at revealing hidden enemies, lost information or the properties of relic, I suppose you could use main quest divinations. You know, atop Mount McGuffin lies the temple of the revered and everlasting Tow Me Koopa, you must consult him on how to proceed in your quest. Personally I have a philosophical problem with this, because I dislike the idea of fate and destiny, or that there is a higher power manipulating my every action (and thus making them meaningless.) 

 

It's been used before, and most likely will again, but I found a much better implementation of it was in the original Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen. There we are guided by a seemingly all knowing Oracles, who turns out to be an enemy, manipulating you to his own ends. Nice reversal of prophecy, in that there were individuals making them come true to their own specifications.

[AGX-17]

I just want to say that augur (in this context is a noun, not a verb.

 

That said, the best use for this I can see is "this dungeon is too high level for us."

[Sacred_Path]

Speaking of dungeons, TRAPS.

[rjshae]

I just want to say that augur (in this context is a noun, not a verb.

 

I believe it can be used for both.

 

 

That said, the best use for this I can see is "this dungeon is too high level for us."

 

Yes, that would be a consistent way to use it. Perhaps a divination spell could also be used to "sense danger", reducing the odds of a surprise attack along a dangerous trek? Potentially divination could also be used to find a safe place to build a camp, lowering the odds of a monstrous encounter. Another use would be to predict foul weather, if the game incorporates environmental effects.

[TRX850]

I remember casting "Contact Other Plane" Wizard 5 (Div) outside the entrance to the Severed Hand in IWD1 many years ago, and while I can't remember exactly what it did, I still have a warm fuzzy feeling that it provided something extremely useful at the time, and was left wondering why I hadn't used it more often.

 

[Ieo]

I remember casting "Contact Other Plane" Wizard 5 (Div) outside the entrance to the Severed Hand in IWD1 many years ago, and while I can't remember exactly what it did, I still have a warm fuzzy feeling that it provided something extremely useful at the time, and was left wondering why I hadn't used it more often.

 

contactotherplane.jpg

So there's a potential gradient of usage for a "divination" mechanism from localized to global (like quest direction, not in favor for similar reasons to Nonek's). But your example made me think of a localized implementation--what if there's a more general "divination" spell mechanism that covers the old Identify spell along with other smaller things like immediate danger (traps), small area (creatures, perhaps not too specific, more like number or size), or objects (hidden or actual object lore like cursed or magical)? Eh, well...

[TRX850]

Maybe traps and enemies within the fog of war glow brightly for a minute? Enemies wouldn't react to the divination, and would allow you to plan your next strategy without alerting them. Sort of a "Night Vision" effect within the fog of war?

 

Btw: I'm not sure if "fog of war" is the correct terminology here, but I've seen it used before, meaning the black, unexplored portion of an area.

 

Edit:

 

And yes, revealing numerical information and/or lore about items and creatures could be an option.

 

Edit:

 

Actually, "Night Vision" isn't correct either. More like "Thermal Vision" that affected everything, even the cold undead.

Edited January 20, 2013 by TRX850

[Ieo]

Maybe traps and enemies within the fog of war glow brightly for a minute? Enemies wouldn't react to the divination, and would allow you to plan your next strategy without alerting them. Sort of a "Night Vision" effect within the fog of war?

 

Btw: I'm not sure if "fog of war" is the correct terminology here, but I've seen it used before, meaning the black, unexplored portion of an area.

It is (correct terminology). Although I don't know if there are different terms between the fully black area and the mere shaded-out "out of sight" portions, but I've always thought everything is fog of war.

 

I'm in favor of limited and more localized use (i.e. not tied to plot content) for any divination because that wouldn't necessarily harm replay value much, especially if there's some dynamism; a divination spell that instantly clears half the map's fog of war and shows everything is a bit overpowered and would depreciate tactical play, IMO (more metagamey?). On the other hand, a stealthy scout, even not a thief/rogue, still has to navigate traps and creatures and the actual landscape--hopefully there will be counter abilities/spells/mechanisms for stealth as well, like BG2's mage AI casting True Sight, although that was so easily avoided as well. 

 

But anyway, per your idea of traps/enemies glowing briefly, if that doesn't uncover landscape, I think it'd be an intriguing sort of implementation. 

[TRX850]

But anyway, per your idea of traps/enemies glowing briefly, if that doesn't uncover landscape, I think it'd be an intriguing sort of implementation. 

 

That's what I was imagining. Just a brief glow that showed where potential enemies (you don't really know if they're enemies yet) are located, and where traps are located. You'd still have to flyover the map a little to check every corner of the area, but you'd have the information the divination provided, and then the effect would dissipate after a minute or so. Or even less time. 30 seconds? I suppose you could still pause and take your time, but then, you can do that anyway, so no biggie really.

[Shadenuat]

Thief in stealth should be parties best divination.

[TRX850]

Maybe traps only glow if their DC is equal to or lower than the spellcaster's current power equivalent? Otherwise, yeah, it'd undermine the search ability pretty fast and/or rogues to some extent.

[Sabotin]

How about some vague description of the area when you use such a spell, similar to what wilderness lore was doing in IWD2:

 

 

It could be a bit different, perhaps concentrating more on geography (your visions are fuzzy, you can only make out stuff that sticks out - notable landmarks). Different levels of divination spells could have reduced/extra lines.

I know wilderness lore wasn't particularly useful, but maybe it will be different this time.

 

You could also have some "long range" divinations that would work from camp (so you can prepare your expedition) and some "short range" that would just temporarily reveal a part of the area.

[JFSOCC]

I reckon it should be easy enough for the game to check player progress (all those Booleans) and then have a check-list "If past point x show y, if past point y show z" and give you a little hint about possible upcoming quests.

[Osvir]

One of the elements I recall with a certain fondness from the table-top experience is the role that cleric divination spells played in the game. Being able to stand before the entrance to a dungeon and augur whether it would be a favorable or hazardous experience, added a lot to the magical flavour of the game. Now I wonder whether something similar could be done with a CRPG, albeit in a more limited fashion. Could a divination spell be used, for example, to determine whether a particular site is something that we are capable of handling, or is it much too dangerous for our current party level. Likewise, are we on the "correct" path for our destiny? Or is this just a side trek?

 

What do you think? Does divination have any role in a game of this type? How can it be implemented in a sensible manner?

 

Heh, I made this thread, now looking at threads I noticed this Divination thread ^^

 

Divination would be great

 

Can Divination become so powerful that it can decide fate as well? Kind of, become a Seer as a profession or a Gypsy Fortune Teller. Lifting others up into the "Chosen One" status. Perhaps you become the follower (as discussed in threads past), as a Fortune Teller, following the story of Edair or any on the other V.I.P's, divining their paths forward instead of divining your own path.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I would like to see Divination magic play a much greater role in games. Knowledge is power, yet Divination spells are nearly totally absent in most games. Aside from Baldur's Gate 2, which had the best spellbook of any game ever created, Divination largely absent. If it's useful to know, it's useful to have a spell which grants that knowledge. For example:

• An enemies's strengths and vulnerabilities.
• True names.
• Words of Power
• Protection spells (Premonition anyone?)
• Detection (Items/Illusions/Invisibility/Traps)
• Exploration
• Insight into person's nature (Alignment, Susseptibility to perssuasion vs. indinidation, etc.)

I imagine that they are more difficult to code for, but let's not make excuses! One can never reach too far when making a proper magic system.

[Osvir]

A Scholar path

[Lephys]

It's like a Geiger counter, but for danger, instead of radiation, 8D!

 

"... Whoa, whoa whoa! Guys, calmly form a single-file line, and proceed slowly in the opposite direction."

[Sacred_Path]

It's like a Geiger counter, but for danger, instead of radiation, 8D!

YOU HAVE THE GRIM O.O

 

sorry.

[Lephys]

 

It's like a Geiger counter, but for danger, instead of radiation, 8D!

YOU HAVE THE GRIM O.O

 

sorry.

 

The Gadget for the Revelation of Ill-advised Movements (GRIM)? "Tinker divination", FTW!

 

... Counter-sorry... 8P

Edited January 22, 2013 by Lephys