Archery?

[rjshae]

I wonder if it would make sense to have endless mundane arrows, but with a cooldown period? I.e. to simulate shooting off X arrows in a row then resetting your stock. I know some people are opposed to cooldowns, but perhaps that would be less objectionable than micromanaging your stock of ammo. Possibly the player could then gain talents that speed up the cooldown rate or improve the types of endless arrows.

[TRX850]

I don't think it's unreasonable to run out of ammo at lower levels when you're still learning how to plan your quests. Do I buy 100 arrows now, and leave room for loot? Or do I load up on more arrows and have less room for loot? etc.

 

However, if they design the game so it's possible to *earn* that magic bow or magic quiver that provides endless arrows, then that would be a reasonable feature. And it would be in keeping with the IE legacy. I don't like running out of ammo, as I'm sure most players don't, but I would feel ten times better knowing I worked hard for those endless arrows. I think by making them an endless commodity from the outset would lessen the game experience and immersion. "There's no such thing as a free lun....I mean....quiver of arrows."

[rjshae]

For the purpose of simplicity, perhaps an "endless supply of X" is something you can gain during the game by cutting a commodity deal with a merchant's guild? Say, 500 gp to supply the party with ordinary arrows; 5,000 gp for improved flight arrows, and so forth. A cool-down would then just represent you drawing from this stash. Sure it's somewhat abstracted, but it would smooth out those pesky logistical details.

 

I could actually see a savy merchant guild cutting deals like that. They may calculate that as an adventurer either (a) you will die before collecting the net worth of all those arrows, or (b) you will want to pay even more to get a commodity upgrade. If the merchant guild cuts enough such deals, on average they will come out ahead. The "endless arrows" commodity can just be treated like an item that has a cool-down power.

Edited January 18, 2013 by rjshae

[JFSOCC]

For the purpose of simplicity, perhaps an "endless supply of X" is something you can gain during the game by cutting a commodity deal with a merchant's guild? Say, 500 gp to supply the party with ordinary arrows; 5,000 gp for improved flight arrows, and so forth. A cool-down would then just represent you drawing from this stash. Sure it's somewhat abstracted, but it would smooth out those pesky logistical details.

 

I could actually see a savy merchant guild cutting deals like that. They may calculate that as an adventurer either (a) you will die before collecting the net worth of all those arrows, or (b) you will want to pay even more to get a commodity upgrade. If the merchant guild cuts enough such deals, on average they will come out ahead. The "endless arrows" commodity can just be treated like an item that has a cool-down power.

I think that's an elegant solution, it could work

[HansKrSG]

I do agree partly with the OP, that archery often is underpowered compared to melee in rpgs, even in pnp. In real life, an archer had the advantage to be able to shoot arrows at you from about 150 meters (or more, depending on the bow and the archer), and would have many chances to pepper the target before they could run into melee. This is hard to manage in an isometric game, where you see about 20-30 meters or so in front of you. So to balance things in a system where you will approach melee pretty quickly, the bow should be at least as deadly as a melee weapon.

 

The weakness of archery in the D20 systems, including AD&D, was that there was no statbonus to the damage, while melee weapons got those, making melee hit a lot harder usually.

 

Other than that, I agree with Lephys post, and I have to quote his fabulous words "the fine line between abstraction and nonsense." - Glorious

[TRX850]

I still think we're overcomplicating what should be a pretty basic design consideration, which is to have dungeons/encounters populated with ammo that you gather as you go.

 

Maybe as a small compromise, have the game engine determine how many characters are regular ranged-weapon-users (and the type) and adjust the loot drops dynamically.

 

So instead of enemies always dropping arrows, they drop a combination of arrows, quarrels, sling stones, throwing daggers, darts etc.

 

But on the next playthrough, you have fewer archers, so the ammo drops adjust accordingly. It would at the very least provide the "illusion" that you were lucky enough to restock, having earned them, rather than giving them away for free.

 

Edit:

 

And yes, bring back STR damage bonuses for bows and thrown weapons.

Edited January 21, 2013 by TRX850

[Osvir]

Could a high level bow generate its own arrows magically or whatnot? A Necromancer Ranger, like Varus, in a sense.

A quiver that generates (over time) Ice Arrows, or having a quiver (like a gourd) that seeps of fire, that the Archer can simply dip their fingers in and pull out a full fire arrow. If [Torch] is in P:E, then holding 1 Fire Arrow could act as a Torch.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Osvir

[TRX850]

You could still find magic bows or quivers that provide endless ammo, yes. My concern is more to do with "earning" your equipment, not it being handed to you for free.

 

If you're going to climb Mt. Everest, wouldn't you feel better knowing you walked every step, rather than being flown to the summit via helicopter?

 

It should be easy enough for the devs to design encounters that drop loot, dynamically calculated (in some cases), that adjust for your party's ranged weapon requirements.

[Lephys]

Maybe just make the special, enchanted arrow types function like separate spells?

 

Example (Brought to you by LephysCorp Example Numbers and Math!):

 

You're a level 1 Archer (I don't even care what class at this point.) You picked a Shortbow as your starting equipment, so you get a Basic Quiver for free. That quiver provides 12 arrows per encounter.

 

You get to level 3, and you have enough money to buy a Not-Bad Quiver (10 gold). The Not-Bad Quiver stores 20 arrows per encounter. As you go up in quiver quality, the price would start getting pretty hefty (because your abilities/damage/effectiveness with arrows fired from a bow increases with your level, despite your number of arrows.)

 

At level 3, you find a Frost Bow, that allows a % of your total quiver size worth of Frost Arrows (let's say 50%, so if your quiver is at 20, you have 20 regular arrows and 10 Frost Arrows. Now, you can either toggle to Frost Arrows (more damage plus cool Mr. Freezey effects, with bonus damage the more puns you make in Arnold Schwarzeneggar's voice), of which you have 8 per encounter, OR you can select targeted single-shot attacks or abilities with Frost arrows (So you don't have to use silly toggle timing just to fire off one Frost Arrow.) If you were in a dungeony area filled with things susceptible to Frost Arrows, then you might want to toggle permanently to Frost Arrows. But, sometimes you might only want to use them selectively. *shrug*

 

Maybe the bow's ability to enchant arrows is tied to the strength/endurance of your soul, so as you level up, this will increase? And/or maybe certain talents increase such things.

 

Also, you could still possibly purchase other forms of arrows (regularly crafted ones, as opposed to magically enchanted ones,) in, say, bundles of 100? So, 100 piercing arrows. OR, maybe "regular" (non-magical) arrow types are gained specifically through talents, and are still unlimited (but there's a quiver refill/swapout duration, so you can't just swap all willy nilly every 5 seconds.)?

 

There are a dozen factors that could be better one way or another, depending on how other combat factors are going to be handled, etc.

 

Maybe your quiver always holds the same amount of arrows (and you can still buy bigger quivers, for a decently hefty price), but there's an ammo-type swap-time, like I said. But, maybe you can still use single-use abilities that are on cooldowns with all of the arrow types available to you? Maybe your enchanty bow has a short cooldown on it, so it can only enchant an arrow every 3 or 4 continuous shots, and that cooldown decreases as you level/specialize? Who knows.

 

You could even mimic the spell-system even more (but with proportionately larger numbers, probably) by having the special arrow types be per-rest, and the regular arrows be per-encounter. Then, as you level up, you could start gaining a handful of special arrows per-encounter. That number could increase as you go, until only the absolute best/most magical arrows you can possibly find are still per-rest (Arrows of the Eternally Damning ThunderFrostFlame?).

 

Of course, the arrows at your disposal would still be equipment-based (your quiver would determine your per-encounter quantities, and your bow would determine enchantments available.) Perhaps only talents/specialization would determine what special types of non-enchanted arrows you gained access to, their numbers (both per-rest AND per-encounter), and how effective you are with them. You could get all the types available and not gain many specific abilities with them (to have very versatile/numerous ammo available for general bow combat), or you could specialize more in piercing arrows than SmashyCrush arrows (I have no idea what crushing-type arrows would be called, so I took artistic license) and be an extreme Pierceman, with all manner of Piercey abilities to use with your 20 regular arrows and 8 piercing arrows (no SmashyCrush ones or ShreddyChop ones).

 

Bah, one of my points I wanted to emphasize (and didn't do very well with the example maths...) is that the quantities and availability of all arrows should be very much in step with character progression. Quivers might offer 2 more arrows per upgrade, since they'd be per-encounter and such. But, there are a lot of mathematical ways to handle/balance it. You definitely should earn your Awesome Archer status, and not just find some bow that automatically respawns Flaming Arrows of Molten Maiming every 2 seconds, when you were just using regular arrows at 16 per encounter. Especially if you can use Power Shot and Barrage and other such types of bow-firing abilities with just extreme damage boosts from your Flaming Arrows of Molten Maiming.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Lephys

[jamoecw]

well the OP doesn't seem to have played BG1 or 2, or IWD 1 or 2, his concern is that archery is a gold sink, which was true for other ranged weapons, but not archery.  i think that it would be nice if a wide variety of mundane weapons were available and just as relatively viable as archery (based on real life relativity).

 

for the following examples - launchers generally give strength bonuses to damage and range.  thrown generally give bonuses to damage, range and fire rate.  all are 1 handed bonuses even if wielded 2 handed.

 

slings(launcher):

special lead sling bullets could fly just as far as arrows and do as much damage, but lack a rapid fire feat, though in exchange you can use free rocks as a poor man's substitute when out of ammo.  you find 50% of arrows that you fire after battle, lead bullets yield misshapen lead balls that need to be reshaped just as often as you find arrows after battle, but as long as you find lead you can get bullets via a crafting feat unlike arrows which require tools and components to make.

 

crossbows(launcher):

no need for feats, just lots of money for the device, with plenty of variety abound, though with less feats and no strength bonuses a master archer is deadlier.  light crossbow yields same damage and range as a short bow, though with better accuracy, and a slower fire rate.  heavy crossbow has the same damage and range as a longbow, though with a slower fire rate and better accuracy.  repeating crossbow for fire speed, though at low damage and range.  hand crossbow for concealment, though low damage and range.  arbalest has greater damage and range than all bows, much slower fire rate, but with the same accuracy bonus of the light and heavy crossbows.  bolts are found just as often as arrows, and they are slightly cheaper too, though you have to worry about which device compatibility as each device requires its own type of bolt.

 

darts(thrown):

lead darts are short range and come in a variety of sizes, each with its own range, damage, and fire rate, all 3 modified by strength of course.  all are short range, with fire speeds ranging from fast bow speed to arbalest slowness.  damage ranges from slung rock to arbalest level damage.  50% recoverable after battle like arrows, the other half have to be reshaped like sling bullets.

 

javelins (thrown/launcher/melee):

these either impair those hit with them or not based on tips, and may be thrown with an atlatl for better range.  light javelins have better range but lower damage than the rest.  heavy javelins have shorter range and higher damage than the light ones.  if either is stuck in an opponent due to a special tip the opponent is impaired by the giant stick sticking out of him, but it does less damage.  the javelins can also be used as a melee weapon, equal to a short spear.  100% recoverable, if it has a special tip then it has to be reshaped before reuse.

 

throwing ax(thrown/melee):

short range, high damage, may be used like hand ax in melee.  100% recoverable.

 

throwing knife(thrown/melee):

a great variety, though all emphsize only one special aspect.  some have longer range, some are able to be used on melee, some have higher accuracy, some can be thrown 2 or 3 at once, some do more damage.  100% recoverable.

 

bola(thrown):

short range less lethal weapon, may gain a feat to use it to kill, trips opponent.  100% recoverable.

 

net(melee):

thrown weapon used in melee in order to disable opponent.  90% recoverable, the other 10% requires simple repair.

[Lephys]

A nice breakdown, jamoecw, . Made me think of this:

 

What if barbed arrows/bolts/knives/spears could be used, and were more effective against people or things who lacked the intelligence to know not to yank them back out to get them out of the way? Imagine, an enraged troll gets a barbed javelin stuck in his torso, then cries out in pain and fury and rips it from his flesh. Little did he know (or really care, I suppose, until the additional burst of pain) that it has a rather hefty inverted barb on it, so it just tore the whole wound about twice as large during the whole journey back out. Now he's suffering pretty significant bleeding.

 

Maybe, for mechanical balance (I know not of real life effects/properties), the barbed stuff actually did less damage when it struck enemies, so humanoids intelligent enough to know not to remove them and/or creatures incapable of removing the shafts wouldn't be great targets upon which to use that type of weapon.

 

*shrug*

[AGX-17]

I'm not trying to be rude, but archery tends to not to be very good in most RPG's. I know it was terrible on the Aurora Engine, which is what the Neverwinter Nights games were made with. I know most people tend not to like archery because it tends to not be as accessible as melee, so I imagine game designers don't put much effort into archery for the next game since most players didn't go for it for the last one, which in turn drives away more potential archers, and it's just a downward spiral.

It's not rude to state facts. I've always liked the concept of archery in video games, but it always falls short in terms of game design, sometimes literally, but mostly figuratively.

Could a high level bow generate its own arrows magically or whatnot? A Necromancer Ranger, like Varus, in a sense.

 

A quiver that generates (over time) Ice Arrows, or having a quiver (like a gourd) that seeps of fire, that the Archer can simply dip their fingers in and pull out a full fire arrow. If [Torch] is in P:E, then holding 1 Fire Arrow could act as a Torch.

Necromancers don't create things. Anyway, if archery is going to be viable (before taking ammo into consideration,) ammo needs to be limited. If you get unlimited armor-ignoring soul arrows it's not very balanced. If you've got multi-classing, a ranger who dabbles in magic should be able to apply some kind of basic enchantment to their arrows on the fly (or nock, more specifically,) rather than, say, paying a professional to enchant all their arrows en masse or buy pre-enchanted arrows.

heat seeking

Heat-seeking arrows? Really? Did you really just suggest that? What happens when your party is in an ice cave full of ice golems? DERP. Hell, what happens when your ranger is behind your party? DERP. DERPETY DERP DERP. Edited February 22, 2013 by AGX-17

[wpmaura]

I would like archery to be like Temple of Elemental Evil and a little JA2 thrown in, able to call shots on body parts, as well as ammo restrictions, freindly fire. I am defiantly getting tired of all the hand holding that games do for people these days.

 

Ideally I would love it if this game had JA2 mechanics in a fantasy setting. But I dont think this is going to be turn based. 

[maggotheart]

 

heat seeking

Heat-seeking arrows? Really? Did you really just suggest that? What happens when your party is in an ice cave full of ice golems? DERP. Hell, what happens when your ranger is behind your party? DERP. DERPETY DERP DERP.

 

Yes I did, and I still think it's a good idea despite all of those examples you cited, in fact having those situations would make having magical heat seeking arrows in the game all the more interesting. Not all weapons have to be useful against all enemies and in all situations, especially if I'm an archer with access to many different arrow types, as I was suggesting. You can read that a few times to get your head around it, then maybe do us all a favor and post some actual content instead of your usual socially awkward reactionary pedantic drivel, AGX.

[Lephys]

 

 

 

 

heat seeking

Heat-seeking arrows? Really? Did you really just suggest that? What happens when your party is in an ice cave full of ice golems? DERP. Hell, what happens when your ranger is behind your party? DERP. DERPETY DERP DERP.

 

 

 

Yes I did, and I still think it's a good idea despite all of those examples you cited, in fact having those situations would make having magical heat seeking arrows in the game all the more interesting. Not all weapons have to be useful against all enemies and in all situations, especially if I'm an archer with access to many different arrow types, as I was suggesting. You can read that a few times to get your head around it, then maybe do us all a favor and post some actual content instead of your usual socially awkward reactionary pedantic drivel, AGX.

 

 

Heh. Seriously. AGX makes really good posts sometimes. Other times, he just makes these.

 

"Magic? SERIOUSLY?! What do you do in a cave full of magic-resistant golems? DERP DERPITY DERP!"

 

"Swords?! SERIOUSLY?! What do you do in a cave full of skeletons that can't bleed? DERPY DERP!!!"

 

I'm pretty sure if magic can distinguish certain temperatures in an anti-fire shield (which doesn't deflect or stop cold at all), it can probably distinguish heat signatures for the purpose of guiding arrows. Obviously you wouldn't use them against cold things, any more than you would use frost spells against cold things.