Reputation; The Famous One vs The Shaded One

[Osvir]

Basically:

 

High Profile (High Reputation)

 

versus

 

Low Profile (Low Reputation)

 

How many chases after you as a "High Profile" character, how many wants autographs? How much ego stroking? Quests that you wouldn't find before? (Some old man trusting the White Knight wherein he doesn't trust the random Low Profile character).

 

How many assassins go after you? How many who would've attacked you on one playthrough just don't because you have a high enough reputation, how many wants to challenge out of honor?

 

As a "Low Profile" character, does that necessarily mean that you are a Rogue/Stealth/Non-Lethalist? No I don't think so. It just implies you don't leave any witnesses of your passing and are very adept at covering up your tracks. Might not get as many assassins after him, but could end up in fights where a "High Reputation" character does not.

 

How does Reputation affect the game, on low's and high's?

 

Is Mid-Reputation important?

 

Does a Low Profile open up more possibility for more suburb Quests, thieves guild or whatnot, but locks out from some High Profile quests? Vice versa.

 

Hugs, have a great day

[Farbautisonn]

Im interested in this too.

 

Personally I generally try not to make myself too much of a profile. I want the rewards, yes, but if whoever I do jobs and errands for wants to keep the fame, add ten pct and Ill be fine with that. I dont want a high profile, because generally speaking, a high profile makes you a wanted guy. By one side or the other. Id rather be the "illusive man" (not in the Mass Effect sense) or the unseen hand. Plus esse, quam simultatur.

[Osvir]

Awesome idea!

 

Give the reputation to the Quest giver :D

 

But that would require you to do the quest (depending on its impact and/or structure) rather low profile-ish as well. Leaving witnesses or someone sees you somehow, would the Quest giver get the credit even if you gave it to him?

 

"You caused too much ruckus!! Now no one will believe that it was me!" could you do a quest with some sort of "Mask" (Dishonored) and then give the mask to the quest giver? Could that cause people to hunt the Quest giver instead of you? (E.g., a couple of days "in-game time" later the quest giver is gone from where he was standing~ and "Commoner" banters can talk about it as if something that "happened").

[Farbautisonn]

Added benefit: You would get more missions that could be "sensitive" or where a local warlord wanted to be percieved as perhaps weakend but not in any way crippled.

 

"So, when you attack this guy/return with the dragons head on a pike, wear this helmet. Its mine and its been in my family for ages. Anyone seeing you in it will likely assume its me".

 

So you return to the village with you or your warror class friend wearing the helmet/armour of the local warlord and you enter his palace. Then you hand over the armour, helmet etc, to the nobleman and he stands before his village with the dragons head in his hands getting all the praise.

 

And after the celebrations where you are as "advisors who made it possible" or as "good friends from out of town", he confides in you that he has a brother or a friend who could also use a "service". Would make for some intersting arching of quests.

[Farbautisonn]

Programming wise it might not even be that hard to make stick. You could have the same missions as vanilla, but if you wore a helmet, or armour the reward would be different upon turn in or entering a specific area.

[Osvir]

What if someone spills the beans? "Hey hey!!! This is the guy who is the guy who's done this thing thing, so coool!!! *yells* Hear ye hear ye!!"

 

How would you represent your reputation? By a banner? Can you lose reputation? Can you go into "hiding" if your reputation becomes too "hot"? How do you change reputation and would equipment play a part in "reputation"? (Changing Light Armor to Medium Armor makes people start to forget who you are or do you need some better and stronger method?).

 

Is the Reputation based off of 1 character in your party or your entire Party? Or is it only based off of the main character?

Edited January 2, 2013 by Osvir

[rjshae]

The one comment I have is that I wish in-game reputation would act more like a spreading meme than a world-wide news flash. That would allow my party to exploit the element of surprise, at least for a little while. But I suppose the meme approach would be much more difficult to code.

[Osvir]

Additionally: Would an action in South Dyrwood be noticed by the North Dyrwood mechanically directly, or does it take a "messenger" (like in BG) who needs to travel (physically-in-game time) from point A to point B before Northern Dyrwood knows what you did or talk about the things you did (though not knowing that you are the one maybe?).

 

How does Reputation spread across the world?

 

Personally I would like to avoid the "World News Flash!" where suddenly everyone knows who you are. If I help out a town with some quests, they should like the character depending on how I do it. I could be a High Profile character in one town, but a Low Profile character in another town.

 

Then there's the question of this, which hauntingly has this feeling of "Alignments":

 

High Evil Rep

High Neutral Rep

High Good Rep

 

Mid Evil Rep

Mid Neutral Rep

Mid Good Rep

 

Low Evil Rep

Low Neutral Rep

Low Good Rep

 

How I see it btw..

Reputation = Explains what your character does in the world.

Alignment = Explains your characters personality and what they did in the world.

[Farbautisonn]

I see your point.

 

"High evil rep" is usually what we are presented with in most RPGs. And it frankly annoys the crap out of me. We are presented with characters who rise to power intelligently and by use of extremely measured force, only to see them devolve into petty hamfisted tyrants. Its the Fzoul esque type.

 

Then we have the more Medium evil rep. The Saszz Tam type ones. They are every bit as evil as the Fzoul esque types but they are more likeable and they generally try to apply force in measure.

 

Finally we have "intelligent evil" as I like to call it. Sememmon type evil. If you didnt know the guy or what his goals were you would pretty much mistake the guy for "lawfull good". Freindly charming good, pays your party in advance and even if you falter doesnt try anything stupid. He just bides his time, makes other plans. The Sememmon type evil however is the least explored type of evil in any game to date, even PST where good and bad was relative. Its the real challenge of RPG AI as I see it. Making Sememmon type characters on both sides of the fence. Both as antagonist, but certainly also as protagonist

[Gyges]

Rep must finally be done properly. Just...just.. no more of this:

 

 

and this

 

 

[Ieo]

Obsidian did not say anything about global reputation, only faction reputation. That implicitly negates global applications of fame/infamy ("high profile") so it's better to look at reputation in terms of faction type. For example, if there was a secretive thieves' guild of sorts and you gain high rep with them, it stands to reason that you could be recognized by their members across geographies due to their internal communication channels but not by the general populace at all. And there's no such thing as the good/evil alignment bits either, as far as Obsidian has said (thank goodness), so you can toss that entire dimension of the discussion out the window. No alignments.

 

What breaks the OP is that it assumes global reputation. The question is then--will there even be global rep? That doesn't work with the PE faction-based concepts Obsidian has thus far proposed.

[Osvir]

Very much an "if" but, if you could become a master swordsman, or you do some great task for a village. Could your reputation not spread? Could it even strike fear into an opposing faction narratively and mechanically (morale)? If everyone speaks about the main character in one town, could not messengers/traders pick it up and spread it somehow? Depends on how Obsidian does it.

 

How can you mechanically deal with reputation as well?

[Farbautisonn]

From humble beginnings, this thread is looking to be one of the more interesting ones.

[Osvir]

As a Low Profile character, can a Cipher read minds and pick up quests for people in a different way? Magically and miraculously for the NPC's all of their purposes were fixed. They praise some God, but in truth it was you.

 

Does a quest necessarily have to be "finished" by turning it into the NPC? Can you instead of "interacting" with the NPC through standard use kind of... make them realize it was done somehow. Does a complete quest always end at face-to-face conversations and gift-givings?

 

How do you pick up quests? Can a quest be given to you by hearing chatter through a door?

 

Can you solve a quest before it has been realized? (e.g., having an item in possession all along that turns out to be the key to redemption or whatever cliche you can think of). Maybe you stumble across a rock that is of some importance in a greater scheme elsewhere, on a stranded lost island you and your group (or whatever quest), decides who does what by the decisions of the rock.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Osvir

[Farbautisonn]

Oooer... innovative! Having the cypher scan surface thoughts. Nice. Might actually turn the Mass Effect esue "Evesdropping questing" into something interesting.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Farbautisonn

[ogrezilla]

I want it to be possible to have a reputation that is wrong. I want to be able to be a good enough bad guy that people think I'm a good guy. Or I want to be able to make a mistake trying to do good and have people think I'm a bad guy for a while. I don't want the world to be all-knowing.

[Osvir]

I'd like to get a reputation (based on actions) as the Lucky or Unlucky one.

 

Getting a ton of cash, or stumbling through a quest poorly but with lots of luck.

 

Or being the "Unlucky" one, people kind of marking you as "Cursed" because you've got such a bad luck. Additionally what ogrezilla says: Trying to do good but failing at it horribly, but really really trying, branding the party as an unlucky party and some people might even scurry away in some fear.

 

"It is a marked one! Poor sod.."

 

Could a reputation be noticed by Gods? With a Low Profile, a God who enjoys darkness and subtle approach might even "contact" the Player. Likewise, a high-born noble and kind soul with a High Profile might draw the attention of other Gods.

[Osvir]

How is Reputation handled, relative to Cultural Background?

[Duke]

I want it to be possible to have a reputation that is wrong. I want to be able to be a good enough bad guy that people think I'm a good guy. Or I want to be able to make a mistake trying to do good and have people think I'm a bad guy for a while. I don't want the world to be all-knowing.

 

Absolutely this. If my evil deeds are done in secret and witnessed by nobody, nobody should know about it. If I'm generally a charming, helpful guy, I should have a reputation as being such, even if I'm coming back in the evening and strangling you in your sleep. Maybe there could be some who do know about my evil deeds though... the gods? Somebody who can read minds? It would mean I have a generally good reputation but there would still be some recognition/reaction by some to the fact that I've done evil.

 

If you accidentally do something 'bad' your reputation should suffer but you should have the opportunity to fix it somehow. Perhaps you could perform community service around the town (help the farmer pick his crops, donate food to the orphanage etc)...

 

And perhaps being of a certain race/culture could automatically give you a bad reputation with another race, which you then have to work to make good?

[JFSOCC]

But couldn't this already be done with faction reputation? If you pick factions which are more on the down low, whether they're crime syndicates, secret societies, paranoid noblemen or just groups that don't chase fame, you'd get a standing amongst those with an ear to the ground, but not elsewhere. If you pick the gaudy factions to do jobs for, then those who enjoy more discretion might shy away from you, while the public would love you more.

 

here's a thought: I'd enjoy it if different party members could have different reputations, so someone might tell something to one party member, but not another.

[Osvir]

But couldn't this already be done with faction reputation? If you pick factions which are more on the down low, whether they're crime syndicates, secret societies, paranoid noblemen or just groups that don't chase fame, you'd get a standing amongst those with an ear to the ground, but not elsewhere. If you pick the gaudy factions to do jobs for, then those who enjoy more discretion might shy away from you, while the public would love you more.

 

Truth.

 

here's a thought: I'd enjoy it if different party members could have different reputations, so someone might tell something to one party member, but not another.

 

That would be really cool. Though, how would that work with combo's? What if I have 1 character that is in good favor with the Thieves Guild, likewise they "hate" the City Watch. In the group I have 1 who has a strong standing with the City Watch, would the Thieves go "hostile" against 1 character or all of the character? Would the City Watch character have to wait outside?

 

Likewise, how would the overall Party reputation work? And how would Morale function with that? Would the Thieves Guild character and the City Watch character work well together in the party? Would it be a functioning (with Morale penalties and whatnot) hassle? (E.g. one of the oddball groups)

 

Or would we see Jaheira start fighting... that Shadow Druid don't remember her name (Cloakwood).

 

I'd like to get a warning somehow. Baldur's Gate with mods, Imoen says something like "Oh I don't like the looks of these guys" about Montaron and Xzar, but in vanilla she says nothing. I'd still have the choice to recruit them, but getting some sort of feedback on "Who are these people?" before recruiting.

 

Parties in cities as well, I made a thread about it some time ago, being able to individually send out party members. Sending party members on "Tasks".

 

What is the in-party reputation? What do Forton think of Aloth? Could "Reputation" deem it somehow? Does party members react to someone getting a better reputation? Can we help the party members get the reputation they "deserve"? Can we influence the path somehow?

 

What I am trying to convey is some sort of "Player Controlled" reputation. Let's say Edair has a steady growth of his reputation according to his own quest tree, but instead of doing that we take Edair off to other adventures and his reputation grows to be like-able by the opposing faction of what he initially goes for... can we influence the NPC's path?

 

EDIT: Can Forton start to like Aloth if you bring down Forton the same "Reputation" as Aloth? As for a Baldur's Gate example... could we bring down Imoen's personality, make her more evil and instead she welcomes Montaron and Xzar like family into the group..?

Edited January 7, 2013 by Osvir

[Osvir]

EDIT: Can Forton start to like Aloth if you bring down Forton the same "Reputation" as Aloth? As for a Baldur's Gate example... could we bring down Imoen's personality, make her more evil and instead she welcomes Montaron and Xzar like family into the group..?

 

Not narratively but mechanically. Let's take Jaheira+Khalid as an example (who can start a fistfight versus Montaron+Xzar) from a mechanical standpoint, Jaheira+Khalid starts fighting Montaron+Xzar, or I take Jaheira+Khalid down a gloomy path they "act" more friendly (mechanically) to Montaron+Xzar.

 

High Wizard Guild members attack Thieves Guild members~ but if I make the Thieves Guild member in good standing with the High Wizard Guild they don't attack.

 

How will it work if I have an oddball group that has reputation all over the world in different factions? Will I be attacked by several different mobs/assassins who just chaotically inflict chaos with each other? One faction fights one whilst fighting one of your guys whilst protecting one of your guys~ sounds like it could be fun in some aspects but I think there needs to be some sort of "Average Party Reputation" that differs from the "Individual Character Reputation".

 

Guy A has good standing with Faction A and bad standing with Faction B

Guy B has good standing with Faction B and bad standing with Faction A

 

Both these factions being opposing of one another, some questions that follows:

 

1. How does Guy A and Guy B work together in the team?

2. How does interaction with Faction B affect Guy A? Vice versa.

3. Assassins go after Guy B, would Guy A be involved in the assassination and/or be a target of the assassination as well? What happens if Faction B is going after Guy A at the same time?

4. Can you bring Guy A into Faction B territory?

 

I think you'd need some sort of "Individualized Storyline" for this to work. Kind of what I am hinting with at the "Main Character Dies" thread. The NPC's having their own stories, they move forward in the world. Perhaps entering Faction B territory with Guy A renders him impossible to use? Maybe you can have him wait outside the area or send him off on his own quest? (in essence: He leaves to continue his quest, unless it leads into Faction B territory).

 

Can NPC's grow in Reputation as they do their own Quest Tress, individual from being in your party?

 

Minsc+Dynaheir example, expanded:

1a. You meet Minsc in Nashkel (Jump to 2a)

1b. You meet Minsc+Dynaheir in Nashkel (Jump to 3a)

2a. Recruit Minsc and save Dynaheir.

2b. Don't recruit. Moving on (Jump to 4)

3a. Recruit Minsc, Flashback-mode (Solo play Minsc at the Gnoll Fortress and save Dynaheir)

3b. Don't recruit. Moving on (Jump to 4)

4. Traveling the world for a while, you start to hear "rumors" when talking to commoners. Some slight gossip of a woman in a purple robe and a bald barbarian who seems a lil bit crazy talking to a hamster.

5. You get to Baldur's Gate, where you meet Minsc+Dynaheir. Minsc perhaps bragging aloud of his endeavors.

6. Recruiting Minsc+Dynaheir at this point could show a different "rep" than what they had before. Likewise, depending on some actions or whatnot what you did in the game could perhaps even change the outcome into something like....

7. Minsc alone in Baldur's Gate, Dynaheir was slain and Minsc has taken to the bottle in the slummier parts of Baldur's Gate. Having a low low reputation as a dummy hobo or whatever.

[TRX850]

From a purely mechanical view, it would seem that an "array" of reputation values would be needed to cover all factions, guilds, and ideologies.

 

If you began the game with a neutral value, say 50 out of 100 for example, that might represent your standing in the overall realm, with 0 for lawlessness and 100 representing unwavering adherence to "laws of the realm".

 

But as you encounter characters whose ideology differs from that, like a high-ranking thieves' guild member, or a misanthropic hermit, or a bounty hunter for example, the values no longer represent law, but whether you are "in good standing" with their ideology.

 

As in real life, lawless communities don't last very long, so maintaining peace and law should probably be the default ideology. Even organised crime syndicates have their own form of law.

 

But if you decided to have dealings with the local thieves' guild, and assuming this became known to the wider public, you might become a wanted criminal in the eyes of the town mayor, but seen as a trustworthy type within the thieves' guild.

 

So the first entry in the reputation table would drop, but the second entry would increase.

 

And when you happened upon the misanthropic hermit (a third table entry), your % value with him might initially be 0 or close to it. Then if it turned out that you killed a group of bandits who'd been harassing him, your reputation with him might remain the same, but the % value with the mayor might increase, and the thieves' guild value decrease (if the bandits were from that guild).

 

In a way, it's a bit like how they implemented it in NWN2, but I think it only extended to companions, and your alignment was used to determine your standing in the wider world.

 

I suppose it boils down to how complex the devs want to make reputation in the game. I don't think it would be overly complex to have a "reputation table" that gave an accurate snapshot of how you are viewed by anyone you've encountered before. Even if there were several hundred entries, it's still a straightforward concept. And in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't take up a huge amount of space.

Edited January 7, 2013 by TRX850

[JFSOCC]

But couldn't this already be done with faction reputation? If you pick factions which are more on the down low, whether they're crime syndicates, secret societies, paranoid noblemen or just groups that don't chase fame, you'd get a standing amongst those with an ear to the ground, but not elsewhere. If you pick the gaudy factions to do jobs for, then those who enjoy more discretion might shy away from you, while the public would love you more.

 

Truth.

 

here's a thought: I'd enjoy it if different party members could have different reputations, so someone might tell something to one party member, but not another.

 

That would be really cool. Though, how would that work with combo's? What if I have 1 character that is in good favor with the Thieves Guild, likewise they "hate" the City Watch. In the group I have 1 who has a strong standing with the City Watch, would the Thieves go "hostile" against 1 character or all of the character? Would the City Watch character have to wait outside?

 

Likewise, how would the overall Party reputation work? And how would Morale function with that? Would the Thieves Guild character and the City Watch character work well together in the party? Would it be a functioning (with Morale penalties and whatnot) hassle? (E.g. one of the oddball groups)

 

Or would we see Jaheira start fighting... that Shadow Druid don't remember her name (Cloakwood).

 

I'd like to get a warning somehow. Baldur's Gate with mods, Imoen says something like "Oh I don't like the looks of these guys" about Montaron and Xzar, but in vanilla she says nothing. I'd still have the choice to recruit them, but getting some sort of feedback on "Who are these people?" before recruiting.

 

Parties in cities as well, I made a thread about it some time ago, being able to individually send out party members. Sending party members on "Tasks".

 

What is the in-party reputation? What do Forton think of Aloth? Could "Reputation" deem it somehow? Does party members react to someone getting a better reputation? Can we help the party members get the reputation they "deserve"? Can we influence the path somehow?

 

What I am trying to convey is some sort of "Player Controlled" reputation. Let's say Edair has a steady growth of his reputation according to his own quest tree, but instead of doing that we take Edair off to other adventures and his reputation grows to be like-able by the opposing faction of what he initially goes for... can we influence the NPC's path?

 

EDIT: Can Forton start to like Aloth if you bring down Forton the same "Reputation" as Aloth? As for a Baldur's Gate example... could we bring down Imoen's personality, make her more evil and instead she welcomes Montaron and Xzar like family into the group..?

Well, I like (as I've argued a while back in another thread) the idea of having solo-gather information quests, where party members can play to their strengths. (The warrior infiltrating the guard, the rogue sneaking into the shadier parts of town to talk with the local crime syndicate, the bard getting drunk with people in an inn, the wizard searching an academy library. each can find a different piece of information which could help with the next party mission. This way individual failures aren't disastrous, just gives you less of a full picture.)

Having mixed reputations can bring mixed results, but generally If the city guard knows you did them some favours in the past, they won't suspect those who travel with you when they've worked for the thieves. Hell, maybe they'll ask you to investigate one of your own crimes. that could make for interesting choices.

I also think that eventually the further you go in one faction or another, that should close some doors elsewhere.

 

As for party-member conflict. I don't know, they're not exactly my strength, I generally try to please everyone and thus fail to please anyone.

[TRX850]

I really should read ALL posts before commenting.