Narrative Second Wind

[Osvir]

Hi!

 

Got this thought in another thread, first of all, what is "Second Wind"?

 

-----------A-------------

In Borderlands and Guild Wars 2 this is a feature you can use to "get back in the field", basically it is you fighting with your dying breathe to get back into the game. It makes no sense really because:

 

A, I lost all of my health, yet I can still fight

B, When I kill an enemy in this mode, I get "Second Wind" and can return to the battlefield (with a portion of health returned)

C, If you fail to kill enemy during the time period you get "Game Over"/"Respawn".

D, It is super fun and great design (in other words, it doesn't matter in these action games if it makes sense or not)

 

-----------B-------------

As P:E isn't action based like GW2 or Borderlands, and with 6 party members, a "Second Wind" feature gets difficult to "implement". Instead, P:E would benefit from what I like to call a "Narrative Second Wind". What does this mean?

 

A, You entire party got knocked out unconscious by a group of Ogres

B, You wake up in another screen, you are in a pot and you are about to get cooked

C, Charm your way out of it to escape, or you get "Game Over".

D, In a game like P:E, with more depth attached to it, sense would have to play its part more than in an action game.

E, With a Narrative approach there are more ways to play with it, sent to Jail, stripped off all of your gear, you become a slave on a boat/camp/mansion, there's no end to the possibilities to what kind of "consequences" failing a Fight could get you thanks to being "Narrative". Perhaps you wake up on the shores of Dyrwood, with a narrative texts saying "You woke up at the bottom of the ocean". Etc. etc.

 

------------------------

 

Personally I would like the B approach, but for some encounters (not every single encounter) but in some fights there is some sort of "Second Wind", an ability to win a fight after loosing the fight. Which is pretty much what the concept of Borderlands and Guild Wars 2 is going for (You won the fight whilst going down, never surrender! Which can be pretty epic).

 

Thoughs?

Edited December 9, 2012 by Osvir

[Gumbercules]

Do you mean for this to be a feature throughout the entire game, or just for certain carefully designed scenarios?

 

If they have to design something like this for every single fight, it would amount to a lot of extra work, plus it would lessen the threat of death. If it's just for a few specific encounters where the enemy makes it clear that they want to capture and not kill your party, then it could be a great idea. But you would have to quickly establish that the party is being captured and not killed so that the player doesn't just reload the game.

 

Edit: Ok you clarified that it's an occasional thing. In that case I like the idea as long as the player is made aware that the rules have changed compared to a normal fight.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Gumbercules

[Osvir]

In that case I like the idea as long as the player is made aware that the rules have changed compared to a normal fight.

 

Does it really? I would love if there were not too much "Hints" in the game popping up a la "This battle has second wind!" then I might lose on purpose just to experience it. I feel that some things in P:E should or could be "hidden". This make the game itself more interesting and explorative, the game itself becomes a "treasure hunt". And fighting with all your might against the Ogres but you lose in the end, and being taken to another screen than what you are used to when loosing is Golden.

 

Silent Hill, me and my brother was spouting hell at that game when we lost the very first "battle" with the kids. We were so angry and so pissed off because we didn't stand a chance and we were pretty scared too, then it took us to this new scene, with the guy in the cafeteria and the a female cop. The game continued on, and we weren't ready for it. We were close to shutting the thing of as well. All of this comes with a great reaction to a great concept.

 

It also has a backlash effect of course, which might be that "You never experienced it" because you played too good or had a too good of a party. Regardless, P:E indicates a game that might take several playthroughs to experience every combination of companions, one game I explore the Mega Dungeon, another I don't. One game I have Forton in my party and another game I have Edair. I'd like to see some Events, being different depending on when I enter them, how I enter them and so on. "Having more than one entrance".

 

EDIT: Also, a Narrative Second Wind for replayability too. Getting stuck in jail when causing mischief in a city and breaking out of it (might grow old after a couple of times, perhaps even get executed if getting caught and escaping too many times in a row, instead of having guards go all out "power attack!" on you as soon as you do something wrong like in BG).

Edited December 9, 2012 by Osvir

[Gumbercules]

The warning could still be disguised as flavor text. For example, If the enemies are slavers, they could shout stuff like, "Keep the big one alive, he'll make a great slave!" If they're bandits, they could say, "What a fine ransom you'll fetch!"

 

Or if you want to maintain surprise, the indicator could occur after the player loses the fight, as long as it happens right away so that people don't just reload. Instead of the enemies just standing around while the player party slumps to the ground, have them immediately comment on the situation.

 

Another issue to explore is: how do you balance these fights compared to normal, to-the-death fights? Is it enough to keep them the same difficulty, or should they be tougher so that more people get to see the post-capture scenes. And if they're tougher, how is that justified from a story perspective (or does it need to be justified)? In Dragon Age: Origins there's a fight against a character who captures you when you lose that's tougher than the final boss fight, which makes you wonder why not just send that character to fight the boss if they're so tough!

[Osvir]

There is that too of course, but more or less as a Second Wind for a Hardcore gamer on Hardcore mode. Getting a chance to restart from where they are at (instead of permadeath and have to start from the very beginning). It could be the light in the tunnel that you have to fight for.

 

I don't think the fights should be neither weaker nor stronger than an usual fight at that point in the game. You might appear at a point when you are too weak to win, and you have to run away (which should cause some narration in my opinion) or you stay and fight, if you lose you get to "Second Wind". I like your suggestion that it could be narrated in "Keep the big one for the slavers" in-before.

 

Likewise you could encounter the battle when you're buffed, and a higher level and you go through it like its nothing.

[JFSOCC]

I think it would be a nice ability for the more tank like characters.

[Dream]

I liked Crysis' Nanosuit mechanics, lets see if we can figure out a way to work that into an isometric game.

 

Oh, and lets try and put in Tribes' jetpacks and skiing in as well, 'cause those were fun in that game.

[AGX-17]

C, If you fail to kill enemy during the time period you get "Game Over"/"Respawn".

 

 

There is no game over in Borderlands, when you die you instantly respawn at the last checkpoint, all progress intact, though enemies may respawn if you're far enough away from the location you died. Also it's intended as a co-op game despite the fact that the narrative is presented as single player, and your teammates can revive you from fight for your life , it takes some time holding down the activate key, thereby taking them temporarily out of the fight as well unless they're playing Maya an use Res for instant long-range revivals.

 

Anyway, this is yet another bizarre, logic-devoid idea. What you're asking is that the devs make every "game over" scenario end with "not game over but a speech or charisma check." This is not going to happen and it's a nonsense idea. Why is every single bandit, wolf, monster, eldritch abomination and assassin who comes after you going to capture you like a James Bond villain and give you ample opportunity to escape? Why should they make an entire bandit lair, wolf den, hostile adventurers' stronghold and so on for every single combat encounter in the game for you to chat or sneak your way out of?

 

That's narratively ludicrous. You're just asking for a game with no possibility of failure.

Edited December 10, 2012 by AGX-17

[Matthew]

AGX, did you skim the OP? He actually clarified that it shouldn't happen for every fight.

 

Obviously, if you die fighting a pack of wolves, they're going to eat you. But if you die fighting guards who easily overpower you, it makes full sense for them to imprison you rather than kill you. I like the narrative second wind idea. I think it would work wonderfully if handled right. I think I remember some older games having that (King's Quest), but not so much anymore. It'd be nice to see it revived.

[DreamDancer]

I really would love to have different outcomes of battles other than the usual Game Over/Reload Save Game or Victory/Loot Dead Bodies. And it should definitely go both ways, meaning that it would be pretty cool if you had some options what to do with foes you defeat, like sending them to prison, selling them off to slavers, offering them a job in your stronghold, etc.

 

Not having death and only death at the end of a conflict means giving the game world more depth in general, because the victory or death approach shouldn't be the only solution in an otherwise complex narrative setting. It works well for some of the dumbed down action heavy "RPGs" because there the killing and fighting is pretty much the only focus, but it wouldn't be appropriate for the spiritual successor of games like PS:T.

 

That being said, I'd love to see RP scenarios like Prison escapes, breaking out of a slave pen, being dragged to a foreign kingdom, abandoned in the desert, etc. All those scenarios can usually only happen if they are planned for the main story line anyway or...your character is defeated. And lives to tell the tale.

[Osvir]

[spreading false words]

 

Man, when you begin to read the topics and you genuinely discuss with heart and soul, and intellect & knowledge, then I'll be happy. I'm not even going to address what you think I am saying.

 

See you later AGX, I guess until you've read the whole post.. maybe?

[Sacred_Path]

I haven't played Borderlands or GW2 so I'm not commenting on them.

 

But an opportunity to stay alive on the brink of death would be a nice idea in a game that's as unforgiving on death as PE. In fact it's the only way I could tolerate instant-death abilities on monsters. Let's say you have an overall chance of 80% to bounce back after you've been dropped to 0 zero health. Gain a little health and stamina and get on your feet again so you can retreat. Since there's no healing magic (AFAWK), the death spell still takes you out of the fight, it just doesn't spell game over for this character.

 

It would need to be limited though. Maybe it can happen only once every 24 ingame hours. And it might not be an ability that every being in the game possesses (unless we have objective based XP, where it doesn't matter if a wounded monster retreats).

 

The "narrative second wind" is more of a plot device than a game mechanic though. It could happen once or twice, and it should be almost mandatory that you lose; like you're facing foes who are deliberately much higher in level than you at this point.

 

OTOH something like wandering bands of slavers who, whenever they win, only subdue you and you have to fight your way out of their 1-3 bases scattered around the world could be nice too. Except slavery doesn't seem to be an issue in this game

Edited December 10, 2012 by Sacred_Path

[TSBasilisk]

Something that might be a bit too much would be having the response dependent on the overall battle.

 

Going back to the ogres: Fighting six ogres, you kill two or less before you're defeated. The remaining ogres put you in their pot, and you have a last-minute chance to escape. However, if you kill four or five, the remaining ogres are sufficiently angered to pound you into a paste.

 

---

 

Bandits I can see three options, depending on how many you killed. From fewest killed to most:

 

-You wake up stripped of all your gold, weapons, and other valuable items. The items and gold are then added to a nearby bandit stash, so you have a chance to eventually reclaim them.

 

-You wake up in a bandit camp. You managed to get them angry enough they plan to kill you, but want to drag it out. You have a chance to escape, though you leave your possessions behind this time.

 

-You managed to scare/anger the survivors enough that they flat out kill you.

[teknoman2]

Do you mean for this to be a feature throughout the entire game, or just for certain carefully designed scenarios?

 

If they have to design something like this for every single fight, it would amount to a lot of extra work, plus it would lessen the threat of death. If it's just for a few specific encounters where the enemy makes it clear that they want to capture and not kill your party, then it could be a great idea. But you would have to quickly establish that the party is being captured and not killed so that the player doesn't just reload the game.

 

Edit: Ok you clarified that it's an occasional thing. In that case I like the idea as long as the player is made aware that the rules have changed compared to a normal fight.

obviously, if your party gets knowked out by a pack of wolves, they will just eat you on the spot and you get no second chance, however if you go down in a fight against slavers without dying, you can find yourself in a cage waiting to be sold. that sort of thing, and im in favor of it

[AGX-17]

[spreading false words]

 

Man, when you begin to read the topics and you genuinely discuss with heart and soul, and intellect & knowledge, then I'll be happy. I'm not even going to address what you think I am saying.

 

See you later AGX, I guess until you've read the whole post.. maybe?

 

Willful ignorance. What you've proposed is an unlosable game, plain and simple.

[Osvir]

^Wrong: The reward for being ignorant, in one sentence.

 

EDIT: I'm not suggesting a Borderlands mechanic (as in "physically the same"), but for the heck of... even in Borderlands you can lose the game even with Second Wind. Doesn't matter if you respawn or not, "Game Over" as in "Your health hit 0, 2nd Wind activated and got to 0 = Dead". I think even in Single Player of Borderlands it is Game Over (Whilst in Multiplayer you get "Respawn").

 

What I am suggesting is a mechanic that fulfills what Borderlands does, but with narration up to par with "Secret of Monkey Island" or [Adventure Game] where you can "Fail" or "Win". Failing means "Game Over", whilst Winning means "Continue".

 

The Idea, Narrative Second Wind (Not every encounter)

Step 1:

Fight Bandits. Lose, get knocked out (all Stamina gone on all 6 party members)

 

Step 2:

Wake up in Bandit Camp. Try to escape.

 

Step 3: Win/Lose

Continue the game, or Game Over and load an earlier save.

 

Second Wind in Borderlands (Not what I am discussing, but more of an explanation on how Borderlands does it)

Step 1:

Fight, loose all health (dropped to 0)

 

Step 2:

Second Wind "Mode". Take down an enemy before time runs out.

 

Step 3: Win/Lose

Continue the game, or Game Over/Respawn and load an earlier save.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Osvir

[TSBasilisk]

And you can always add a penalty for this, even if you escape. Bandits wouldn't just tie you up, they'd take your valuables; you might be able to recover your armor and weapons, but your gold will be a lot harder to get back. You'd need to beat all the bandits in the camp to reclaim your gold, plus their other treasure, and they would kill you this time rather than tying you up again.

 

This also marries very well with the use of a Stamnia/Health system. Your party can be rendered unconscious, but not immediately killed.

 

It adds another dimension to story-telling and a bit of realism. Not everything is a rabid creature that only wants to kill you right away after all.

Edited December 11, 2012 by TSBasilisk

[jivex5k]

@OP

Great idea I like it a lot.

It would be a great surprise to the player, one of those moments where the player says "Wow, didn't see that coming! This is awesome!"

Keep it as a fairly low occurrence though or else it gets old quick.

[teknoman2]

something like this happened in thief 3 if you got caught by the guards outside of missions. the first time they got you, you would wake up in jail and you had to escape. the second time they just killed you

i remember seen scenes like this in other games as well

[Heresiarch]

I kinda fail to see the point in a second-wind mechanic outside games with no save feature. Made plenty of sense in first Prototype, but not so much in Broderlands, considering the ever-increasing upkeep.

 

It might be nice for Ironman made though, if party characters will be prone to dying without any means for ressurection. Although I much prefer the first scenario, it reminds me of good old tanking abilities, which would spare you from a lethal hit and grant you some resilience for a while, so that you can recover in an OH SHI~ scenario.

[Kage Tempest]

Sounds like a great Idea. But like others that were concerned has voice, something like this shouldn't be a very common occurrence we should also think of the logistics of implementing a system like this. R&D is really costly >.< and I doubt obsidian has the funds to put towards something like this. Maybe in an expansion?

[teknoman2]

of course you cant have it for everything... only where it makes sense. for example you are stoped by highwaymen and you try to fight them off but fail. they may not kill you but your party will wake up some hours later where you fell but with all you had gone. then you will have to get new items from scratch, maybe having to buy back your stuff from merchants in town where the thieves have sold it and so on

[Osvir]

The transition between Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 could be seen as a major Narrative Second Wind.

 

Take an area in Baldur's Gate as an example, you fight some Ogres, then you get taken to some designated point on that map. For guards, there could be a jail in a town where you get taken too as well, so not so much "Create/Draw more areas". Getting sent to jail in Baldur's Gate could also be seen as a Narrative Second Wind, but as it is part of the plot it is also a major Narrative Second Wind, what I am curious about is if it is possible to make minor instances.

 

Maybe only 3-4 encounters that leads to some sort of ~"Second Wind".

[Gumbercules]

You probably would have been better off just describing your idea instead of comparing it to the "Second Wind" mechanic, since some people still seem to be taking it literally rather than metaphorically.

 

Dragon Age: Origins already used this idea once, so it's not like this is some radical change. The main difference would be to have it happen more than once, and against enemies who haven't been made uncharacteristically difficult to defeat.

[motorizer]

I doubt obsidian has the funds to put towards something like this. Maybe in an expansion?

 

they have 4 times the fund they asked for...

I think its a great idea, for some situations