Monks in Project Eternity

[GhoulishVisage]

Any I the only person here who noticed some of the European fans being extremely xenophobic whenever another foreign culture crosses their medieval European culture? You people are aware how Europe got things like gunpowder and firearms in the first place? Both Asia and Europe have been in contact with each other during that period.

 

That's quite a word to throw around for people who are just worried about certain themes seeming very out of place in PE.

Whilst I'm personally confident that monks will be incorporated in a manner that is fitting for the setting, I can see where they're coming from.

I always felt that monks looked visually out of place in a game like NWN2, like a Jet Li character wandering through Lord of the Rings.

 

It is however worth mentioning that this game DOESN'T take place in Europe or (as far as I can tell) a PE Europe equivalent.

We have Siberian themed Dwarves there, so definitely not traditional fantasy Europe.

Er, I don't think.

Anyhow, these themes can probably be incorporated intelligently and seamlessly by some of the creative boffins over at Obsidian.

 

That said I do quite like Vargr's Forton drawing. It's a very non-traditional take on a monk when it comes to RPGs, yet fits Forton's hobo look perfectly whilst still allowing him to be an expert martial artist and not looking too out of place.

[Agelastos]

 

It is however worth mentioning that this game DOESN'T take place in Europe or (as far as I can tell) a PE Europe equivalent.

We have Siberian themed Dwarves there, so definitely not traditional fantasy Europe.

Er, I don't think.

 

 

Very good post. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

However, are you sure that Boreal dwarves are supposed to be Siberian themed?

There are several indigenous peoples living in the northernmost stretches of Europe (most of them Finno-Permic) with material cultures very similar to those of the Altaic peoples of Siberia.

[Boof]

What's all this talk of Asia and Shaolin and ninjas... For people that claim to be fans of fantasy how are you lacking in imagination to realize a group of people that dedicate themselves to fighting unarmed, and everything else that comes with being a monk - in a brand new fantasy setting - doesn't have to have a damn thing to do with anything Asian.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Boof

[FlintlockJazz]

I like it, though that's just my personal preference. I think the concept of monks needs to be expanded outside the usual shaolin monk to include others such as the crazed old hermit guy in the woods (and I'm not just talking about the old drunken Zen master here, but all hermit types across all cultures, such as the druidic type as well though obviously actual druids are already covered by their class).

 

Now that you mention it...does PE have druids? Anyway, the Monk class despite its namesake is not synonymous with a cleric. Religion is not the main driving force in a monk's life, it's just some philosophy or discipline. I don't think the Monk class needs to be expanded, or at least not in that direction, because at that point you start encroaching on other territory

 

I don't mean expand the monk's role, I mean expand the types of people who would be monks to those outside the stereotypical temple monks you normally see. I mentioned druids in order to try to explain that I was refering more to the kooky old man type of hermit (such as Herman Toothrot) rather than the druidic type. And having said that, who agrees that Herman Toothrot would make an awesome monk! :D

 

 

Also, I wasn't sure on whether the druid had been added either, but I had read posts that seem to indicate that it was and having just checked the Kickstarter updates to make sure it appears that the druid is indeed in PE and was even added quite early on (it's mentioned as one of the first seven classes, so probably the first or second class added after the original five).

[jezz555]

I like it, though that's just my personal preference. I think the concept of monks needs to be expanded outside the usual shaolin monk to include others such as the crazed old hermit guy in the woods (and I'm not just talking about the old drunken Zen master here, but all hermit types across all cultures, such as the druidic type as well though obviously actual druids are already covered by their class).

 

Now that you mention it...does PE have druids? Anyway, the Monk class despite its namesake is not synonymous with a cleric. Religion is not the main driving force in a monk's life, it's just some philosophy or discipline. I don't think the Monk class needs to be expanded, or at least not in that direction, because at that point you start encroaching on other territory

 

I don't mean expand the monk's role, I mean expand the types of people who would be monks to those outside the stereotypical temple monks you normally see. I mentioned druids in order to try to explain that I was refering more to the kooky old man type of hermit (such as Herman Toothrot) rather than the druidic type. And having said that, who agrees that Herman Toothrot would make an awesome monk! :D

 

 

Also, I wasn't sure on whether the druid had been added either, but I had read posts that seem to indicate that it was and having just checked the Kickstarter updates to make sure it appears that the druid is indeed in PE and was even added quite early on (it's mentioned as one of the first seven classes, so probably the first or second class added after the original five).

Good to hear about druids. I still think I'm going to have to disagree with you though when it comes to monks. There may be some overlap in the whole "in-tune with the natural world" thing. But druids by their nature are tied to the forest, and like psychedelic mushrooms and animal friends and stuff, so kind of a celtic vibe, whereas I see a monk as being more tied to buddhism and a very harshly disciplined lifestyle. As opposed to essentially the dude from the big lebowski in the woods. Monks aren't really so much kooky hermits, I mean they could be, but by virtue of being kooky you kind of forgo the whole focus and discipline thing.

 

Once again I'm not sure why there is such a strong desire with people to attempt to push the monk away from it's buddhist roots, the paladin class is based on Christianity and nobody complains.

[Umberlin]

You're conflating a sci-fi setting which is supposed to be the product of thousands of years of globalization with a fantasy setting where travel and cross-cultural exchange would be much more limited.

 

We have no idea of their capabilities of travel, be the mundane or magic. More to the point, actual, real migration be they slow trickles or large also happened without the aid of modern technology. Migration is not, I repeat, not a difficult concept to grasp, and it's been happening throughout Human history. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that cultural mingling and fusion can only happen in reality or specific settings, as if it would somehow be impossible in a Fantasy - despite more than a few having done so, I even gave an example of one.

 

I dislike firefly, so that really wasn't the best example you could have used to attempt to sway me.

 

Your like of dislike of it is wholly irrelevant.

 

That's quite a word to throw around for people

 

It is quite a word to throw around. It, however, while definitely not applicable to everyone who participates in these threads, is quite apt at describing some, and very accurately at that. One such individual in this thread, and a few more in past threads. Thus, the shoe, unfortunately, does fit some. So he's not amiss for noticing it. Some people have no tact, which unfortunately means there are people out there that are every bit as xenophobic who do have tact . . .

Edited November 18, 2012 by Umberlin

[jezz555]

I dislike firefly, so that really wasn't the best example you could have used to attempt to sway me.

 

Your like of dislike of it is wholly irrelevant.

 

 

Actually it's not. IIRC you for some reason seem to think I'm trying to prove that cultural mash-ups are "wrong" or "illogical" or something and thus attempted to use firefly to disprove this hypothesis. Your problem is that it's not a hypothesis, it's a personal preference, If I didn't like it in firefly why would I like it in PE?

 

I was never trying to say that two cultures becoming entangled would be impossible so stop trying to force words into my mouth, this is a forum for a computer game, the antagonism is unnecessary.

Edited November 18, 2012 by jezz555

[Mandragore]

You're conflating a sci-fi setting which is supposed to be the product of thousands of years of globalization with a fantasy setting where travel and cross-cultural exchange would be much more limited.

 

We have no idea of their capabilities of travel, be the mundane or magic. More to the point, actual, real migration be they slow trickles or large also happened without the aid of modern technology. Migration is not, I repeat, not a difficult concept to grasp, and it's been happening throughout Human history. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that cultural mingling and fusion can only happen in reality or specific settings, as if it would somehow be impossible in a Fantasy - despite more than a few having done so, I even gave an example of one.

 

I think you're confusing my post with someone else's, I never said anything about migration. Migration is something else entirely. If you're talking about these hypothetical Asian people migrating to the main continent as an explanation for monks, first off you need a reason for them to have migrated. Second, why wouldn't they have been consumed by the local culture or vice versa as happens so often in history?

In Firely I'm pretty sure the explanation for Asian stuff everywhere is the oft posited idea of future economic hegemony by Asian nations, primarily china, not that a bunch of Asian people randomly migrated to Europe and North America before humans left earth. All that aside I don't think that level of cultural mingling is good for a fantasy setting. It removes all the fun/mystery from travelling to exotic locales and meeting people from them.

 

Additionally FYI we know there is a 16th century level of technology in the game which in real world terms means limited (but not impossible) travel. Unless magic users in the game have accurate, globe trotting teleportation, (which IMO is unlikely) you wouldn't have safe regular travel between distant continents.

 

I still I think the monk should be Asian (or from and Asian themed foreign culture) to preserve the coherence of the archetype and to play up the exotic nature of the class and its abilities, but I would rather have him as a solitary traveler whose culture and background are something interesting that we can uncover.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Mandragore

[Atreides]

An anti-magic monk whose hits remove magic, buffs and resistance would be interesting.

 

We've got siberian dwarves, elves, humanoid races, each presumably with their own culture. I think human monks may not be the most pressing worry about consistency with historical Europe.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Atreides

[Karranthain]

And what if the monks were based on the Japanese Sōhei (warrior monks) instead?

 

 

 

 

Much more original, not to mention probable. Their weapon of choice was the pictured Naginata, but they also used spears, staves, swords and bows.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Karranthain

[Vargr]

And what if the monks were based on the Japanese Sōhei (warrior monks) instead?

 

 

 

 

Much more original, not to mention probable. Their weapon of choice was the pictured Naginata, but they also used spears, staves, swords and bows.

 

 

I could get behind that much easier than an unarmed, typical DnD Monk.

[Mandragore]

And what if the monks were based on the Japanese Sōhei (warrior monks) instead?

 

Much more original, not to mention probable. Their weapon of choice was the pictured Naginata, but they also used spears, staves, swords and bows.

 

I like this idea. Makes more sense that just beating their bare fists against platemail all the time. They should be able to use unarmed, but also edged weapons when the situation calls for it.

[jezz555]

And what if the monks were based on the Japanese Sōhei (warrior monks) instead?

 

 

 

 

Much more original, not to mention probable. Their weapon of choice was the pictured Naginata, but they also used spears, staves, swords and bows.

 

I would rather a Chinese influence more than a Japanese one, because we see a lot of Japanese influence in games already. But I suppose its mostly with samurai and ninja's rather than these guys. People have brought up "warrior-monk" concepts before but I'm just not sure how they would differ from fighters, if they are using weapons and armour.

Edited November 18, 2012 by jezz555

[Elerond]

I don't see equipment matter so much as every class have different way to access to power that his or her soul offer. So monk in full plate and sword will work differently from fighter with same equipment as they boost themselves differently. As it is somewhat confirmed that every character can use any equipment and PE's rule system tries to it best to make all equipment builds as viable choice, so I think the question with monks (and other classes) is that will their soul power and game mechanics support viable unarmed build. Concepts about Forton somewhat hint that there will be viable unarmed build, but one can't be sure if drug using masochist is good example about subject.

[Rostere]

Well, obviously there's a need to find a spot on several scales which is not already occupied by an existing class. Do they fight physically or magically? Ranged or close combat? Do they have any auxiliary skills, like Chemistry/ Alchemy which someone mentioned? (Maybe a monk is functionally just a close- combat mage? Maybe they boost their physical abilities with alchemy, becoming like The Hulk, or perhaps Jekyll/Hyde?) Obviously, if monks fight with physical attacks and with physical weapons it will be very hard to find them an unique role compared to fighters, paladins and rangers.

[Karranthain]

I would rather a Chinese influence more than a Japanese one, because we see a lot of Japanese influence in games already. But I suppose its mostly with samurai and ninja's rather than these guys. People have brought up "warrior-monk" concepts before but I'm just not sure how they would differ from fighters, if they are using weapons and armour.

 

As Elerond has pointed out, the game won't have any equipment restrictions (we've been told that if we wish, we could equip our mage character with plate armour and a greatsword).

 

I'd assume that the chosen class dictates the combat role, but not necessarily the means of fulfilling it. We could speculate that the warrior monk would have a stronger connection to his soul, effectively becoming a mage/fighter hybrid (but with a stronger focus on the latter). Perhaps he'd have a natural resistance to the magic, etc.

 

Besides, Sōhei usually didn't use much armour, just simple robes. As I've mentioned, they seem to be a much more original choice (they're rarely potrayed in games). Not to mention that they were actually militant and participated in armed conflicts. In that respect they seem to make much more sense. And last, but not least, their look (as evidenced by the posted artwork) is rather unique.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2012 by Karranthain

[Agelastos]

Bah! The Sōhei's got nothing on the Yamabushi! Ninja monks ftw!

[Karranthain]

Bah! The Sōhei's got nothing on the Yamabushi! Ninja monks ftw!

 

Those are quite similar; Sōhei formed into big units though (very much like the knight military orders). Either would be fine for the purpose of the game. Both seem much more interesting than the stereotype of a Shaolin monk present in most RPGs, at least in my opinion.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Karranthain

[jezz555]

I would rather a Chinese influence more than a Japanese one, because we see a lot of Japanese influence in games already. But I suppose its mostly with samurai and ninja's rather than these guys. People have brought up "warrior-monk" concepts before but I'm just not sure how they would differ from fighters, if they are using weapons and armour.

 

As Elerond has pointed out, the game won't have any equipment restrictions (we've been told that if we wish, we could equip our mage character with plate armour and a greatsword).

 

I'd assume that the chosen class dictates the combat role, but not necessarily the means of fulfilling it. We could speculate that the warrior monk would have a stronger connection to his soul, effectively becoming a mage/fighter hybrid (but with a stronger focus on the latter). Perhaps he'd have a natural resistance to the magic, etc.

 

Besides, Sōhei usually didn't use much armour, just simple robes. As I've mentioned, they seem to be a much more original choice (they're rarely potrayed in games). Not to mention that they were actually militant and participated in armed conflicts. In that respect they seem to make much more sense. And last, but not least, their look (as evidenced by the posted artwork) is rather unique.

 

I mean Idk how monks will work if there are no equipment restrictions since its been pretty central to the class since inception, but fair enough you've proven your point. I suppose I'll wait and see in that case.

Edited November 19, 2012 by jezz555

[Karranthain]

Here's more artwork of the Sōhei :

 

 

 

[Doppelschwert]

It certainly would be nice to have monks displayed in a broader way while you travel so they aren't the cliche known from several DnD Games, as suggested in this thread.

 

However, I don't understand the problems people are having mechanics-wise in most threads I read about monks. When its possible to equip armor to your mage, it certainly will be an option to give a monk some armor. Likewise, weapons. I would be surprised if it wasn't possible to change a monk build to reflect a sohei character or the like and I will be happy to twist the monk to my own concepts. As long as the character progression is open enough, that should be no problem.

[Karranthain]

It certainly would be nice to have monks displayed in a broader way while you travel so they aren't the cliche known from several DnD Games, as suggested in this thread.

 

It is my hope as well.

 

However, I don't understand the problems people are having mechanics-wise in most threads I read about monks. When its possible to equip armor to your mage, it certainly will be an option to give a monk some armor. Likewise, weapons. I would be surprised if it wasn't possible to change a monk build to reflect a sohei character or the like and I will be happy to twist the monk to my own concepts. As long as the character progression is open enough, that should be no problem.

 

Hopefully Forton won't be stuck in the DnD's cliched representation of the monk either. But with the freedom of equipment it shouldn't be the case, as you've pointed out.

[Streamlock]

I think they should model them after cheesy white guys pretending to be asian dudes who draw the power of their inner chi' via the anient and secret technique of auto-erotic-asphyxiation...........

 

Or something.

[jezz555]

I think they should model them after cheesy white guys pretending to be asian dudes who draw the power of their inner chi' via the anient and secret technique of auto-erotic-asphyxiation...........

 

Or something.

 

Too soon.

[Serguei]

I loathe eastern monks in western settings (which PE is , obviously, with all those pseuso-celtic names)

D&D added monks to catter to the masses, but I think it's a horrible design.

 

I'd like to see monks as portrayed by Sean Connery in "The Name of the Rose"

 

And if you really need to have a bare-handed fighting class, call it the "brawler" .