Magic and the Economy

[Diagoras]

Guns are popular "simply" because they can pierce everyone's defenses. They're what made steel plate armor a relic of a bygone era.

 

You realize that steel plate armor after about 1400 was manufactured with the specific purpose of deflecting bullets? Matchlock and wheelock arquebus are not modern firearms.

[rjshae]

Nice idea. Another area to explore is non-conventional industries that are enabled because of magic.

Along those lines, there are potentially other creatures besides horses that can supply heavy labor. Picture the trolls that opened and shut the gates to Mordor in the LotR movies. Wizards should certainly be able to summon and perhaps bind elemental creatures that can perform actions not possible with human laborers. There may be an entire industry centered around the capture and breeding of enchanted creatures for use in alchemical processes.

[HangedMan]

Nice idea. Another area to explore is non-conventional industries that are enabled because of magic.

Along those lines, there are potentially other creatures besides horses that can supply heavy labor. Picture the trolls that opened and shut the gates to Mordor in the LotR movies. Wizards should certainly be able to summon and perhaps bind elemental creatures that can perform actions not possible with human laborers. There may be an entire industry centered around the capture and breeding of enchanted creatures for use in alchemical processes.

 

I want to run a bath house that uses an enslaved water elemental to produce fresh water, and an enslaved fire elemental to heat things up to just the right temperature.

[Osvir]

And Osvir! I'm disappointed in you. You posted here and didn't mention the Avatar world's use of firebenders to power electric plants and such. Tsk.

 

I see what you are going with this carry on.

 

Magic is usually described as hard to control and master, in other words it lacks stability. Bad for mass production.

 

An archmage wouldn't pass his days in a factory to keep gears in motion. An idiot savant, maybe, but could be dangerous.

 

A magic token releasing energy could be too expensive and instable for common folks to use it.

 

In PE magic is linked to the power of the souls. Factory work is already soul draining, in a world where you soul is literally fuel, it sounds like suicide.

 

Using zombies could be a more effective method, but I'm not sure they could be up to the task, and way too questionable.

 

I can see Wizards as scientists (like others already have stated, haven't read all the posts but some). Zombies would indeed be more questionable but I can see some cases where a secretive Necromancer does it to improve his work (maybe he does it for a good purpose for himself, but he is misunderstood). At the bottom bottom, in the underneath of a large controversial and conspiracy driven company (Perhaps called Monsantu) there could be zombies working in some secret division, contaminating all the food (Warcraft 3) turning some people into Zombies/Undead in various places of the world at a low ratio (a very slow urgency of the world that you pretty much have to take extra time to encounter. And being a part of mid-game main story, and take it over for your own winnings or destroy it). In other words the game slowly makes the population into zombies (starting at small villages).

 

It could give you a sense of "Why the hell are people turning into zombies?" and you begin to research it. It could even be a side-quest.

 

Back to Scientists a Wizard could be an excellent Engineer (though much more towards the arcane of it). Nano-technology, being able to hover small parts of energy and build items with some ease. A Wizard would make a great Craftsman but perhaps not in the ways of a Blacksmith who puts the soul of the Earth, Fire, Water, Wind (Elemental-Natural) into his work, the Wizard simply uses the Arcane.

 

Basically a Wizard could build a Power outlet that runs on Arcane energy, nano-technology. "Dabus" Wizards that maintains cities by profession (fixing lights, or torches, providing heat, electricity and so on). Magic Barriers around cities and Magical Locks for pesky burglars. A Wizard heavy city should be Wizadry in more than just "Wizards". The town itself should take note of it. Lush gardens with small ponds that Wizards go and clean regularly with enchanted water to grow enchanted fruit from the tree set in a small island on the pond.

 

Perhaps grow enchanted ingredients for their Alchemy and Experiments.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Osvir

[Tagaziel]

I want to run a bath house that uses an enslaved water elemental to produce fresh water, and an enslaved fire elemental to heat things up to just the right temperature.

 

I can actually picture that in a Vailian Grand Republic, as a display of the city's absurd wealth. Also, what Osvir and Suen said. Reanimated undead labor? That'd allow for an increased, say, mining or woodcutting output. Hell, any industry that requires raw strength could benefit from that. Of course, the more squeamish would protest.

[Jorian Drake]

I want to run a bath house that uses an enslaved water elemental to produce fresh water, and an enslaved fire elemental to heat things up to just the right temperature.

If that is a Japanese-style outdoor onsen, sign me up for the petition as well XD

[Atreides]

I'm sure there's many ways to get production done, it's just a question of does it make more sense, or would it be cheaper to get it done by magic? If wizards are rare and their work expensive, they'd only be called in for consulting or finishing work.

 

An example would be a one-off job to replace the conventional workforce with summoned zombie workers. I'm sure there'd be a fine marketing pitch on long-term cost savings etc.

 

Using zombies could be a more effective method, but I'm not sure they could be up to the task, and way too questionable.

[Hormalakh]

Was it Eberron's D&D setting that had a sort of steam-magic (is that a genre?) take on this?

 

Because it sucked.

 

The 'logical' integration of magic into r/w feudal economies kind of breaks it IMO. Which is why the old "magic-is-very-rare" or "mages-are-closely-controlled-heretics" plot devices are so very effective.

 

Because, let's face it, if mages were 5% of the population then they would very soon rule the other 95% through a combination of coercion and manipulation of the means of production. A great idea for a game (evil mageocracy) but perhaps not this one.

 

Edit: Damn sausage-fingers.

 

Mages. P:E's 1% against the 99%. LOL nice...

[Rostere]

I can see Wizards as scientists (like others already have stated, haven't read all the posts but some). Zombies would indeed be more questionable but I can see some cases where a secretive Necromancer does it to improve his work (maybe he does it for a good purpose for himself, but he is misunderstood). At the bottom bottom, in the underneath of a large controversial and conspiracy driven company (Perhaps called Monsantu) there could be zombies working in some secret division, contaminating all the food (Warcraft 3) turning some people into Zombies/Undead in various places of the world at a low ratio (a very slow urgency of the world that you pretty much have to take extra time to encounter. And being a part of mid-game main story, and take it over for your own winnings or destroy it). In other words the game slowly makes the population into zombies (starting at small villages).

 

It could give you a sense of "Why the hell are people turning into zombies?" and you begin to research it. It could even be a side-quest.

So, I take it you've been to P. Schuyler & Co. in Tarant?

[AGX-17]

Guns are popular "simply" because they can pierce everyone's defenses. They're what made steel plate armor a relic of a bygone era. It wasn't until the development of synthetic fibers like kevlar that functional protection from firearms in the form of body armor came back. In the 1970s. Even then, that can only stop small-arms fire, and the impact is still roughly equivalent to being hit by a baseball bat swung by a major league hitter. Even if you're not dead, you're down for the count.

 

Actually, the first functional suits of body armor date back to medieval Japan, manufactured from silk. Later examples include Ned Kelly's suit, the Korean Myeonje baegab and then World War II inventions: the German and Soviet breastplates, American flak jackets and so on and so forth. Of course, this depends on the type of firearms used.

Guns are popular "simply" because they can pierce everyone's defenses. They're what made steel plate armor a relic of a bygone era. It wasn't until the development of synthetic fibers like kevlar that functional protection from firearms in the form of body armor came back. In the 1970s. Even then, that can only stop small-arms fire, and the impact is still roughly equivalent to being hit by a baseball bat swung by a major league hitter. Even if you're not dead, you're down for the count.

 

Actually, the first functional suits of body armor date back to medieval Japan, manufactured from silk. Later examples include Ned Kelly's suit, the Korean Myeonje baegab and then World War II inventions: the German and Soviet breastplates, American flak jackets and so on and so forth. Of course, this depends on the type of firearms used.

 

Which is completely tangential because this refers to the use of any form of armor, not armor meant to stop firearms. None of the things you cited were viable, mass-produced battlefield solutions except Flak Jackets, which were made to protect from shrapnel, not direct gunfire. If you shot a guy wearing a flak jacked he'd be just as shot as a guy wearing a silk nightgown. Same goes for WWI and II helmets. They were for shrapnel/debris protection, not meant to stop bullets.

 

Did you even bother to read what you cited?

 

Humans throughout recorded history have used various types of materials to protect themselves

from injury in combat and other dangerous situations. At first, protective clothing and shields

were made from animal skins. As civilizations became more advanced, wooden shields and

then metal shields came into use. Eventually, metal also was used as “clothing,” what we now

refer to as the suit of armor associated with the knights of the Middle Ages.

 

However, with the

advent of firearms (c.1500), most of the traditional protective devices were no longer effective.

In fact, the only real protection available against firearms were manmade barriers, such as stone

or masonry walls; manmade fortifications such as trenches and ditches; or natural barriers, such

as rocks and trees.

 

One of the first recorded instances of soft armor use was by the medieval Japanese, who used

armor manufactured from silk.

 

This sentence does not in any way imply that silk can stop a bullet. It's referring to the concept of soft armor, not armor that can stop a bullet. Silk couldn't stop arrows when the Mongols wore it (who wore it to prevent the arrowhead from catching/tearing soft tissue when being pulled out,) why would it stop bullets?

 

And feudal Japanese armor was multi-layered, including reed or bamboo meshes and lacquer plates forming the first, primary line of defense. It couldn't stop Nobunaga's bullets, either.

Edited November 16, 2012 by AGX-17

[Osvir]

I can see Wizards as scientists (like others already have stated, haven't read all the posts but some). Zombies would indeed be more questionable but I can see some cases where a secretive Necromancer does it to improve his work (maybe he does it for a good purpose for himself, but he is misunderstood). At the bottom bottom, in the underneath of a large controversial and conspiracy driven company (Perhaps called Monsantu) there could be zombies working in some secret division, contaminating all the food (Warcraft 3) turning some people into Zombies/Undead in various places of the world at a low ratio (a very slow urgency of the world that you pretty much have to take extra time to encounter. And being a part of mid-game main story, and take it over for your own winnings or destroy it). In other words the game slowly makes the population into zombies (starting at small villages).

 

It could give you a sense of "Why the hell are people turning into zombies?" and you begin to research it. It could even be a side-quest.

So, I take it you've been to P. Schuyler & Co. in Tarant?

 

Actually no. But now I'm curious and I'll have to finish that damn Arcanum. I see the potential, don't get me wrong, I just know I have to dedicate myself some time for it right off the bat. Its a small fence I have to climb over (mindset), I've only played the very very very first area xD

Edited November 16, 2012 by Osvir

[Diagoras]

Which is completely tangential because this refers to the use of any form of armor, not armor meant to stop firearms.

 

Again, most Late Medieval heavy armor development post-1450 was driven by protection from gunfire, as that was the major threat to armored soldiers (other than having your head bashed in with a warhammer or being shot with a longbow/crowssbow at point-blank range). This is why you see the use of various kinds of metal armor (including plate for quite a long time) all the way through the Late Medieval period and most of the Renaissance.

 

In fact, armorers used to shoot at the armor at close range to test it, and the dent was kept in to show its ability to deflect shot.

[Vandoon]

I agree that magic should be included in the economy and industry and I am flexible with how this is implemented. In many games it did bother me how magic could be applied and wasnt (not enough to spoil the game just something that was apparent). The unbalancing of the economy with magical items was the other part that was irritating.

 

There is probably any number of ways these can be handled.

Here is a couple of ideas.

 

Casting magic could be (in addition the the usual system mechanics) a drain on the life force resulting in the continual casting or spells for industry prematuarly aging the caster.

If the magicians source for mana or similar is components this could limit some spells / cost effectivness

If the source was deity driven I am sure they deity would perhaps frown on the continual interuption from priest x praying " light this furnace"

If the source was elemental ley lines or magical locations could be used to supply power however these locations would be valuble and not given up lightly they could also be seen a religous locations owned by church (or equivalent) groups.

I would like to see a working economy. If a magical item is worth 1000g it would be unable to be sold easily if the weapons dealer only holds 10g for the usual trades he does. A magician knocks out one or two of these he (if he can sell it ) sit around and never work again it would be silly. (or equivalent item for industry which may be able to mass produce and meet the cost)

 

All this points to balance and scale.

Other ways is to make learing or casting time consuming so the magicusers dont sit around cranking out items.

This needs to fit with adventuring magic.

Do items then become common, everyone has a widget of fire and a sword o hurting.

Does this lead to a industrial revolution. Is the world going through this now.

 

Is magic unstable and the furnace with the widget could blow up.

Is the time and cost to make a furnace no better than cutting wood. usefull where wood is scarce.

I am using the furnace as an example however I am sure you can come up with equivalents for other industry. In one pen and paper RPG we had a trading deal with merchants selling created ice for meat wharehouses and the like. Cultivated herbs in artifical environments not found locally. Now this took large amounts of resources magically and tide the party to an area to maintain the spells.

 

These are just ideas and do not truly solve any issues however give everyone some food for though and depending on the world chosen can aid a fun world.

[TrashMan]

Deosn't magic need "fuel" too? It's not energy from nowhere.

Mages get tired by casting spells.

[ogrezilla]

this reminds me of this comic

 

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305

[ogrezilla]

Deosn't magic need "fuel" too? It's not energy from nowhere.

Mages get tired by casting spells.

good call. if we're being realistic enough to consider magic and the economy, we should consider magic and physics as well. The energy has to come from somewhere.

[Diagoras]

To answer the OP's question: it all depends on the rules of magic, as many posters have said. Widepread and mechanistic magic (spell A has effect B every time and can be learned in three days) is hard to understand as not having a signifigant effect, but the more rare and spiritual magic is the less of a change to society as a whole you'd see.

[Tagaziel]

Since enchanting is in, I believe there will be more practical magic, one that'd be useful to the industry. One of the reasons I posted this thread actually. An enchanted furnace that draws on the power of the astral plane/dimension/whatever to have a free source of fire would be extremely useful and an example of an industrial revolution level change. At least, in my view.

 

As for the realism of physics, magic breaks physics by definition. Newton spins in his grave.

[ogrezilla]

Since enchanting is in, I believe there will be more practical magic, one that'd be useful to the industry. One of the reasons I posted this thread actually. An enchanted furnace that draws on the power of the astral plane/dimension/whatever to have a free source of fire would be extremely useful and an example of an industrial revolution level change. At least, in my view.

 

As for the realism of physics, magic breaks physics by definition. Newton spins in his grave.

it really just depends on how it is implemented in the world. I definitely thing there should be differences in the world that reflect the existence of magic. I just don't know how far it needs to go. It depends on how common the ability to use magic actually is too. Are the enchantments permanent? Is a fire enchantment the same thing as actually setting something on fire? Or would fire magic just allow them to light their fires more easily while still requiring fuel to keep the flame going? If magic can start the fire but not maintain it without a constant effort by the caster its more likely the people in this world would still use fuel; they just might forgo the invention of matches or lighters.

 

In general, I think I agree with your train of thought though. A world with magic should have signs of magic throughout the world; not just in combat.

[Rostere]

Deosn't magic need "fuel" too? It's not energy from nowhere.

Mages get tired by casting spells.

Well, just like a regular workforce then? Except that a mage would be that much more powerful. What we're looking for is an explanation in the game's lore which prevents magic from being used to power large-scale industries, and something which limits the world from overflowing with magical items. An appropriate definition of this "fuel" would do.

[mstark]

It would all depend on what shape magic will take in The World, as a few people have already pointed out. A few examples:

 

Will it be an infinite, free, no-consequence resource available to a select few?

Eg. create a golem once, and it will work for you forever (Pratchett's Discworld has a nice take on this). Can you create an everburning fire? Can you make a block of ice that stays frozen? Can you permanently enchant items?

 

This would have a great effect on economy, and I believe the most powerful & rich would be those who can hire & control a wizard. In such a world, before the invention of the firearm, Wizards would likely have ruled the lands because there was no way to challenge them. This could create the twist in which mages and the rich are battling to create a new hierarchy.

 

Will it be an expensive, high-consequence, temporary, effect?

Eg. You can summon a golem with the power equivalent to the items used to summon it & leaving yourself exhausted for the duration of its existence. You can make a fire burn for as long as you have the magical equivalent to fuel, and stay awake to keep it going. You can only freeze a block of ice by drawing the excess heat of the water into your own body, making you able to only freeze small quantities of water before succumbing to a high fever.

 

In such a world, magic would still have a very practical and specialized real use, but it could never replace cheap charcoal, or ice carried down from the mountain by slaves. In a world with slaves, even the cheapest magical trick might be more expensive than having a slave do your bidding.

 

Is magic something else? - I think so. What follows here is wild speculation.

I believe magic will be more special than this in Project Eternity. It won't be magic as we think of it in the traditional sense. It's very hard to theorize, but since it's tied directly to the soul of a person, nearly everyone should have access to it. In one form or another. Only those with enough time at their hands, and the necessary education (in literacy), would be able to study grimoires to learn more about how to channel their inherent powers. Given that the printing press hasn't been invented, the rarity of books would also hinder anyone from learning about it. Few discoveries would be written down, and even fewer would become widely spread.

 

While everyone, bar soulless, has access to it, it's still something that is understood by few. It seems that, up until now, the “magic” of PE has been surrounded by superstition and never any real understanding. Like firearms, magic has only just started to enter society in an actual, usable form. Now, this could be interesting: we'll be dropped right into a world that not only has just invented firearms, they're also discovering how to use the magical powers inherent in their souls! Every new significant invention always introduced a power shift – will we see city states with great soul understanding vying for power with city states that control weapons manufacture?

 

*drools a little*

Edited November 19, 2012 by mstark

[Tagaziel]

All interesting views and proposals. mstark's post got me thinking, too. We are making one assumption: that an enchantment, a spell etc. is permanent. While writing the opening post, I assumed the opposite - magic requires maintenance, keeping the enchantment up/magical energy flowing/hammertime to please the dark god/etc. As such, the emergence of a privileged layer of magic users would be inevitable. But since magic is much harder to master than industry, the power would be illusory and act as a golden cage.

 

Still, I believe it would be enough to cause a decline among some industries, such as those providing fuel for furnaces etc. (yes, blast furnaces are a favourite example of mine, go away before i pour steel on you!), causing the effects outlined in the first post (protoluddites, discord). The division may run so deep, in fact, to cause the emergence of polar opposites - towns founded by disgruntled workers that eventually develop a strong industry that can overtake the magic-fueled economy of the original city they left.

 

The rivalry can take the form of an economic cold war, using eg. the old favourite, staple right, taxing imports etc. Not to mention attempts to corner the market by the conventional industrial powers, attempting to displace the more expensive, magic-made products with their cheaper, less refined, but readily available ones.

 

Sorry for the "stream of consciousness" in advance.

[mstark]

I wonder if fire (and other elements) has any place in a soul based magic system? I have a hard time thinking of how channelling the power of your soul can actually conjure up a fire? I have a feeling we won't see the traditional fire & ice based spell arsenal. Pure speculation. That would mean it can't act as a replacement for natural resources, possibly the most defining factor of an economy.

 

I can see soul magic enchanting items, which would have a direct impact on the industry, but not necessarily on the economy. Most role playing environments only ever seem to sport enchantments for weaponry, but in reality I believe an enchanted pickaxe would be far more sought after: greatly improving the profitability of a mine. Something like that would only mean that the rich would get richer, those who can afford better equipment will get greater returns. Magic wouldn't greatly impact the economy, given that there are larger factors in play, like a limited amount of natural resources in the world. Maybe soul magic can help discovering new deposits of natural resources?

Edited November 19, 2012 by mstark

[Tauron]

that sounds good, but it might be too complicated...will use of magic have "side effects" on user and fire created by magic might have other "magical" (bending reality and interdemensional planes might have some undesireble effects) components that if not used correctly might corrupt the process of foundry lets say. It really depends how magic will work in PE and what effect id does in the world. I was really annoyed in Arcanum, magic vs complicated tech. But maybe that could work if use of magic creates temporary EM field that disturbs electric devices. Right now we can speculate, but your post makes sense, in world of such power, it would be matter of time before someone would cash it in and that it could change how market works.

[Tagaziel]

I was really annoyed in Arcanum, magic vs complicated tech.

 

I think it was a brilliant approach to the problem, well explained in the game and the awesome manual (kudos to the author!)