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Atheism! Are there still people out there who genuinely believe that all gods are just one big hoax (Does evolution exist as a theory?) by religious leaders in order to tighten their hold of the ordinary people?

Or does the word mean someone who openly opposes and hates deities? Are the groups of people who devote their lives to seek means to kill gods? Can you be one of them?

Edited by Zaigo

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Mature themes to me:

- Someone is starving on the streets, not just one but many of the poor folks, they reach for me and I can kick them in the face, or they overwhelm me in their desperation, I can't help just one because then all of them will be over me like hungry wolf's.

- A large ocean cruiser/boat (Titanic) crashes into an iceberg and I have to choose to bring as many as I possible can into the rescue boat I am in or start hitting them with a paddle or else the boat will sink. Panic. Like I skimmed in the thread someone mentioning moral and immoral decisions.

- Blood and stretching so far to the gore. Gluttonous fat Lords dripping their fingers in sauce and mocking, smacking lips at, my main character as he/she is in front of this Lord on his/her knees, pinned down to chains and haven't eaten in several days and in this grand hall the Lord mocks the hunger in of the character in a most torturous way.

- Not any Horror Hollywood flicks, not "Splatter"-gore in any way or any too detailed features in terms of "cutting a man down stomping on his face and gauging his eyes out to feast on", visually no, but maybe in [text].

- Sex is Mature too, but I feel that Mature is more "Wise", "Serious", it can be very "Light" too, but for some reason the word itself feels "Dark" in a "Noir"-ish way. Mature has the reign to be more emotionally powerful, though I did cry at the end of Toy Story 3 (childhood memories, I grew up with this movie series), I value Toy Story as having Mature themes too that a child would just laugh at, but an adult would understand philosophize about it.

 

I'd consider this all to be spectacularly immature, even downright stupid. If you want a good scene of mature conflict over food, watch the movie Defiance. Watch Schindler's List. Watch The Lady.

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Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

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You're thinking hysterical means humorous.

 

Erm no, I didn't. I was generally talking about over-the-top emotional dialogue, like your eample.

 

It doesn't. It means wildly, violently emotional in an extremely demonstrative way. It is the antonym of reserved. Morte was a reserved character--he used humor, sarcasm, and occasionally outright lies to cloak his past and his emotions. Being reserved doesn't mean you can't be friendly, talkative, or humorous. It means you don't go around shoving your problems in people's faces.

 

puh-lease, do you mean to tell me you actually liked Morte's dialogue, but not the sobbing, weirdly emotional housewife? They're both not examples of what I'd conceive as realistic or well-tempered. Morte was entirely a gimmicky comic character (I just didn't mind because he was a floating skull and that made it clear from the outset what his role was).

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I might be misunderstanding the phrase "Mature". At the same time I feel that many mature things can be viewed as immature and vice versa.

 

Is sex mature? Yes. Is it immature? Yes.

 

Perspectives. Take a look at the list and look at it from your own perspective of what maturity is. Wait.. you already are ;)

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puh-lease, do you mean to tell me you actually liked Morte's dialogue, but not the sobbing, weirdly emotional housewife? They're both not examples of what I'd conceive as realistic or well-tempered. Morte was entirely a gimmicky comic character (I just didn't mind because he was a floating skull and that made it clear from the outset what his role was).

 

Morte wasn't forthrightly emotional. He displayed bratty, comedic behavior, yes. He wasn't a mature character, but he was written in a mature way.

 

You can have violent hysterics that are written in a mature way--people tell them to shut up instead of rushing to their side and then yelling at you for hurting their feelings. They are a rarity and are treated as if they are making idiots of themselves (sometimes forgiveably) rather than being a prime example of standard behavior.


Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

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Uh, no. To be more accurate: Usually simply not put in.

 

If the game is trying to sell itself as mature it usually has at least one, usually two of them chucked in:

 

Dragon Age Origins had sex, rape and racism all thrown in.

The Witcher 2 also had sex, rape and racism.

The Witcher had sex and racism in there, possibly rape but I cannot recall any point it may have done so.

God of War trilogy had sex in it.

Lollipop Chainsaw, well I doubt I have to explain that one.

The new Tomb Raider has rape as 'character development'.

Alpha Protocol has sex and rape in it (yes there is a potential rape sequence in there).

Overlord 2 has sex in them.

Mass Effect trilogy has sex and racism in them.

Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy to you yanks) has sex in it.

Skyrim deals with sex and racism (yes, even with it's barebones writing there is racism in there, such as that dealt with by the Khajiit).

Arcanum has racism.

 

So in short, sex is put in a shedload of games, most of which do not portray it maturely and use it as a marketing gimmick, and that rape is, surprising even to me, in a lot of games and usually handled poorly in them.

 

Rape, racism, and sex are all very real things. Ignoring their existence is juvenile, not the other way around. As a game created for a mature audience capable of dealing with mature issues, I don't think any serious subject should be discarded off-the-cuff.

 

That said, I agree with the rest your previous post.

 

I never said anything about ignoring their existence, I said that they are usually put in as an attempt to look mature and gritty in a juvenile way, which they are. If they stem from the story naturally then fine, the mature way would be to deal with them realistically, but their inclusion does not equate maturity automatically as some seem to believe, and mature themes are neither restricted to them nor require them for all cases. In short, mature writing comes from how those things are handled, not by their automatic inclusion.

Edited by FlintlockJazz

"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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Morte wasn't forthrightly emotional. He displayed bratty, comedic behavior, yes. He wasn't a mature character, but he was written in a mature way.

 

I disagree. Unless you think using sarcasm is a sign of maturity (I'm p. sure teens can pull that off generally).

 

Morte was a gimmicky character like Bender. Due to their peculiar condition hey're both not or pretend to be not affected by things that would deeply affect others, so they can be entirely blasé about them. They're also both mediums or spokepersons for the writers. Thirdly, they're supposed to offer comic relief. The one thing that saved Morte from being just a nuisance was that he was using 'slang' that had been created for a fantasy game.

 

You can have violent hysterics that are written in a mature way--people tell them to shut up instead of rushing to their side and then yelling at you for hurting their feelings. They are a rarity and are treated as if they are making idiots of themselves (sometimes forgiveably) rather than being a prime example of standard behavior.

 

In most cases where I've seen dialogue like your example I suspected it was at least in some ways the writer's understanding (and even mockery) of the fact that with the limited lines you usually have in a CRPG, it's very hard to create dialogue that is on the one hand well-tempered and realistic, and OTOH affects the player emotionally. Especially in an isometric 2D game where you have no body language to speak of. At least for the IE games, I also can't remember that I've seen such weird dialogue so regularly that it gave the impression that this was the norm in this gameworld.

Edited by Sacred_Path

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Morte wasn't forthrightly emotional. He displayed bratty, comedic behavior, yes. He wasn't a mature character, but he was written in a mature way.

 

Hmm... so Maturity is in the way you express, or how it is written? Maturity isn't necessarily a "theme" but a presentation, a representation of... experience, wisdom, time?

 

EDIT: Thought that it might be a good idea to look at the definition, just to get on the same page.

Edited by Osvir

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What I'd like to see is this game: how does the (confirmed) existence of gods influence the people's opinions about things like abortion, gender equality, homosexuality, marriage etc.

 

I sincerely hope that the gods in the setting cannot be concerned with such petty matters.

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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Putting in shock value for the sake of it isn't mature. Such things are pointless unless they are deeply entwined in the narrative and overall "feel" of the game.

 

Well then it's a good thing nobody was advocating for mature themes "just for the sake of them". Honestly this is such a straw man.

 

I've been seeing that word floating around in several forums and I've been wondering what it means. (Please explain it to me if I'm misunderstanding it, jezz555 looks more like a straw man comment/input when I look at the wikipedia explanation to be honest... was that what you initially meant?)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

I can't see anything in mcmanusaur's post that is straw man behavior (if he had quoted someone perhaps). Looks more like something to think about to me.

 

It's not a term I like to use often, because some people don't know what it means and it makes me sound pretentious, but in essence, It means rebutting the argument you would like your opponent to have made rather than the one they actually made. No one was arguing for "mature themes just for the sake of them" and yet that was what mcmanusaur was arguing against, thus he was rebutting a strawman argument.

 

I was merely reflecting on what others had previously said about whether things like sex are mature or immature, or both; I didn't purport to be representing anyone else's argument. So that's not a straw man.

Edited by mcmanusaur

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I think it depends on whether we are asking for mature elements or a mature theme. A mature theme may contain mature elements but mature elements does not always translate to a kind of mature theme. Mature elements can just be added for sensationalism, for e.g. Having said that, I would prefer the mature theme to be more about individual freedom in ethical questions and consequences are expected to follow. This could be from petty stealing to murder. Even animals and children violence could be involved or suggested. And I would also like the theme to show most prominently in the dialogue, the kind of language used by my character or the NPC, be it from a foul mouthed madman or an enticing prostitute.

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Uh, no. To be more accurate: Usually simply not put in.

 

1. If the game is trying to sell itself as mature it usually has at least one, usually two of them chucked in:

 

Dragon Age Origins had sex, rape and racism all thrown in.

The Witcher 2 also had sex, rape and racism.

The Witcher had sex and racism in there, possibly rape but I cannot recall any point it may have done so.

God of War trilogy had sex in it.

Lollipop Chainsaw, well I doubt I have to explain that one.

The new Tomb Raider has rape as 'character development'.

Alpha Protocol has sex and rape in it (yes there is a potential rape sequence in there).

Overlord 2 has sex in them.

Mass Effect trilogy has sex and racism in them.

Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy to you yanks) has sex in it.

Skyrim deals with sex and racism (yes, even with it's barebones writing there is racism in there, such as that dealt with by the Khajiit).

Arcanum has racism.

 

So in short, sex is put in a shedload of games, most of which do not portray it maturely and use it as a marketing gimmick, and that rape is, surprising even to me, in a lot of games and usually handled poorly in them.

 

Rape, racism, and sex are all very real things. Ignoring their existence is juvenile, not the other way around. As a game created for a mature audience capable of dealing with mature issues, I don't think any serious subject should be discarded off-the-cuff.

 

That said, I agree with the rest your previous post.

 

2. I never said anything about ignoring their existence, I said that they are usually put in as an attempt to look mature and gritty in a juvenile way, which they are. If they stem from the story naturally then fine, the mature way would be to deal with them realistically, but their inclusion does not equate maturity automatically as some seem to believe, and mature themes are neither restricted to them nor require them for all cases. In short, mature writing comes from how those things are handled, not by their automatic inclusion.

 

1. Several of the games you listed, the most relevant ones to the genre, were actually great games. So far as the ones that aren't relevant to the genre, I'll be honest, I can't be bothered to research whatever Lollipop Chainsaw is. As a mature community, backing a company known for their ability to effectively implement mature content, I think some arguments about implementing mature content in an immature way can simply go without saying. Comparing a game called "Lollipop Chainsaw" to a game like PE is a bit of a stretch, I think. I was also never arguing for inclusion of any one topic without surrounding storyline and context.

 

I didn't say "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was someone being raped in every alley, and you had a -save the rape victims- minigame?" Of course not.

 

Of course I think any mature subject should be handled maturely, if included. The issue here is, I trust Obsidian to do just that: Handle mature content maturely.

 

2. We are pretty much in agreement on this, then.

Edited by BetrayTheWorld

"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

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Uh, no. To be more accurate: Usually simply not put in.

 

1. If the game is trying to sell itself as mature it usually has at least one, usually two of them chucked in:

 

Dragon Age Origins had sex, rape and racism all thrown in.

The Witcher 2 also had sex, rape and racism.

The Witcher had sex and racism in there, possibly rape but I cannot recall any point it may have done so.

God of War trilogy had sex in it.

Lollipop Chainsaw, well I doubt I have to explain that one.

The new Tomb Raider has rape as 'character development'.

Alpha Protocol has sex and rape in it (yes there is a potential rape sequence in there).

Overlord 2 has sex in them.

Mass Effect trilogy has sex and racism in them.

Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy to you yanks) has sex in it.

Skyrim deals with sex and racism (yes, even with it's barebones writing there is racism in there, such as that dealt with by the Khajiit).

Arcanum has racism.

 

So in short, sex is put in a shedload of games, most of which do not portray it maturely and use it as a marketing gimmick, and that rape is, surprising even to me, in a lot of games and usually handled poorly in them.

 

Rape, racism, and sex are all very real things. Ignoring their existence is juvenile, not the other way around. As a game created for a mature audience capable of dealing with mature issues, I don't think any serious subject should be discarded off-the-cuff.

 

That said, I agree with the rest your previous post.

 

2. I never said anything about ignoring their existence, I said that they are usually put in as an attempt to look mature and gritty in a juvenile way, which they are. If they stem from the story naturally then fine, the mature way would be to deal with them realistically, but their inclusion does not equate maturity automatically as some seem to believe, and mature themes are neither restricted to them nor require them for all cases. In short, mature writing comes from how those things are handled, not by their automatic inclusion.

 

1. Several of the games you listed, the most relevant ones to the genre, were actually great games. So far as the ones that aren't relevant to the genre, I'll be honest, I can't be bothered to research whatever Lollipop Chainsaw is. As a mature community, backing a company known for their ability to effectively implement mature content, I think some arguments about implementing mature content in an immature way can simply go without saying. Comparing a game called "Lollipop Chainsaw" to a game like PE is a bit of a stretch, I think. I was also never arguing for inclusion of any one topic without surrounding storyline and context.

 

I didn't say "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was someone being raped in every alley, and you had a -save the rape victims- minigame?" Of course not.

 

Of course I think any mature subject should be handled maturely, if included. The issue here is, I trust Obsidian to do just that: Handle mature content maturely.

 

2. We are pretty much in agreement on this, then.

 

Furthermore the new tomb raider doesn't have rape in it, that was just poor reporting. You might want to do better research.

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Having said that, I would prefer the mature theme to be more about individual freedom in ethical questions and consequences are expected to follow. This could be from petty stealing to murder. Even animals and children violence could be involved or suggested. And I would also like the theme to show most prominently in the dialogue, the kind of language used by my character or the NPC, be it from a foul mouthed madman or an enticing prostitute.

 

So basically you want less hand holding? I can relate to that. It's more satisfying if not every person in the world has a sign over their head. Questgivers approach you to deliver a quest, enemies blindly charge you etc. That has been done to death.

 

I liked how in BG, bears would only turn hostile if you stay standing in their territory. Something similar should be true for more enemies. Maybe out of a group of enemies, one (the gung-ho one) should attack you while the others stand back. Now you cut down the loner, but do you also attack the rest immediately to gain an advantage? Or do you sheathe your weapons, hoping that after this display of power/ lone maniac getting killed, the rest of the group will stay peaceful?

 

Also, estates or rich NPCs were kinda nicely done in BG2, more of that. Do you rob them/ burglarize their homes, or attempt to get a quest from them?

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Do you rob them/ burglarize their homes, or attempt to get a quest from them?

 

Or, you can try to get a quest from them, and rob their home if they don't comply. Trick or treat bitch! lol


"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

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"Mature"-ity is about having responsibilities that dictate your actions in conflict with what might be most fun or most convenient. Marriage and children are adult themes because you're now given the choice between selfishness and the your commitment to others. Are you willing to sacrifice? Can you delay gratification?

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality. Even death has lost it's finality in Project Eternity, so no, mature themes definitely don't fit the setting very well. While rape, racism and sex are very real things, the world of project eternity is very very far away from reality. Project eternity ventures so far into the realm of the metaphysical that any attempts at realism are actually harmful for the game setting.

 

Please no attempts at "maturity" (meaning the gritty side of reality in this context), it has already been thrown out of the window.


The most important step you take in your life is the next one.

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality. Even death has lost it's finality in Project Eternity, so no, mature themes definitely don't fit the setting very well. While rape, racism and sex are very real things, the world of project eternity is very very far away from reality. Project eternity ventures so far into the realm of the metaphysical that any attempts at realism are actually harmful for the game setting.

 

Please no attempts at "maturity" (meaning the gritty side of reality in this context), it has already been thrown out of the window.

 

Right, because how would having magic AND racism in a game make any sense at all? The two are obviously mutually exclusive, and using ANY realistic elements in a game that already includes fantasy elements would detract from the experience. As a matter of fact, why have anything that's recognizable from reality at all? Trees? Humans? Recognizable geometric shapes? No, no, and no. Let's just have a black screen so that we can't see anything "realistic" or "gritty" that might kill our immersion. That's it!! Black screens with only sounds of our magic happening, and "beings" speaking in languages we couldn't possibly comprehend. No, wait, the sounds might be familiar. Let's just cut sounds out completely too. That'd be a great game. Imagine the possibilities.


"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality.

 

That's true for all fantasy (and gaming in general) though. I think there is room for trying to reach adult players even though there are orcs and dragons around

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality. Even death has lost it's finality in Project Eternity, so no, mature themes definitely don't fit the setting very well.

People use drugs to escape reality all the time - an issue that I'd consider mature and can have severe consequences on people's lives. Saying that escapism isn't a mature theme doesn't really hold water, it all depends on the delivery of theme.

 

On a not really related note, I think perhaps there is a bit of a focus on negative mature themes (which, granted, I've been a big contributor to). Mature themes could focus on other mature issues, parenthood for example is one that isn't inherently negative.

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I'm for application of themes that make sense and add to the experience, but not application just for the sake of it.


Spreading beauty with my katana.

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what I basicly think is that if you want to put things in your game to make it mature, than it will probobly will not be mature, what anyone who deals with that thing writers, game developers, film makers should do is think what message I want to show through this story, and then just put it and don't try to be mature, you want to tell something about rape, something abour racism, something about religion than put it in, then try to put it in and don't think about it in categorys of is this mature enough or is this not mature enough, if some one makes story that tells rape is evil but dousn't show much sex, and if someone makes story where rape happens everywhere and all the time and is always described but dosen't try to say anythin about it other than it exist, then what story will be more mature with it's topic?

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Having said that, I would prefer the mature theme to be more about individual freedom in ethical questions and consequences are expected to follow. This could be from petty stealing to murder. Even animals and children violence could be involved or suggested. And I would also like the theme to show most prominently in the dialogue, the kind of language used by my character or the NPC, be it from a foul mouthed madman or an enticing prostitute.

 

So basically you want less hand holding? I can relate to that. It's more satisfying if not every person in the world has a sign over their head. Questgivers approach you to deliver a quest, enemies blindly charge you etc. That has been done to death.

 

I liked how in BG, bears would only turn hostile if you stay standing in their territory. Something similar should be true for more enemies. Maybe out of a group of enemies, one (the gung-ho one) should attack you while the others stand back. Now you cut down the loner, but do you also attack the rest immediately to gain an advantage? Or do you sheathe your weapons, hoping that after this display of power/ lone maniac getting killed, the rest of the group will stay peaceful?

 

Also, estates or rich NPCs were kinda nicely done in BG2, more of that. Do you rob them/ burglarize their homes, or attempt to get a quest from them?

 

 

Yep. Like for e.g., there's this widow who is being stubborn from handing over a certain item that I need to complete my quest. I could certainly try to go into dialogue and persuade her, help her out, etc., but I also want the 'unmentioned' not-so-obvious option of just turning to hostile mode and killing her outright, or pickpocketing her, or hire mercenaries to take care of her, etc. This kind of 'freedom' to do whatever you want, and the ability to deal with ethical questions/dilemmas within yourself is what I think as 'mature' in the sense that only a 'mature' people can experience this kind of dilemmas between "self gratification" and "commitment to others" as someone above already mentioned.

 

 

And also to the guy who said realism should be just taken out because PE contains soul and fantasy themes ... you got Reality (the REAL) and 'reality' (in game) confused. The moment you start playing a game, especially a RPG, you've already taken a step towards escaping reality. The reality-fantasy issue we're talking about here is already presumed as non-reality (that is, not REAL). The discussion here is directed and limited within the game-reality and there is nothing wrong to incorporate certain themes from Reality to 'reality', as many others in this forum have already done (like asking for more 'realistic' armor, etc.).

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Yep. Like for e.g., there's this widow who is being stubborn from handing over a certain item that I need to complete my quest. I could certainly try to go into dialogue and persuade her, help her out, etc., but I also want the 'unmentioned' not-so-obvious option of just turning to hostile mode and killing her outright, or pickpocketing her, or hire mercenaries to take care of her, etc. This kind of 'freedom' to do whatever you want, and the ability to deal with ethical questions/dilemmas within yourself is what I think as 'mature' in the sense that only a 'mature' people can experience this kind of dilemmas between "self gratification" and "commitment to others" as someone above already mentioned.

 

Speaking of choices, I liked how in IWD2 paladins could often refuse to accept rewards (well they didn't have much choice IIRC). This option should be open to everyone. It would become even better if there were randomized outcomes (like 50% chance to raise your reputation)

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I'm for application of themes that make sense and add to the experience, but not application just for the sake of it.

Where's the fun in that? Why not have a nice seemingly charming culture of Orlan and then find out they are really slavers (!) who eat babies (!!) and then they all start having freaky short humanoid sex right in front of the player to emphasise their loose morals (!!!). It's obviously far better to pigeon-hole in content that makes no sense and seems out of place just for implicit shock value - everyone knows that.

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