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On a not really related note, I think perhaps there is a bit of a focus on negative mature themes (which, granted, I've been a big contributor to). Mature themes could focus on other mature issues, parenthood for example is one that isn't inherently negative.

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality.

 

That's true for all fantasy (and gaming in general) though. I think there is room for trying to reach adult players even though there are orcs and dragons around

I am not sure if that was a serious remark, to me it looks like a trolling attempt against religions and philosophers. Kinda ironic from someone with the name Sacred_Path

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality.

 

That's true for all fantasy (and gaming in general) though. I think there is room for trying to reach adult players even though there are orcs and dragons around

I am not sure if that was a serious remark, to me it looks like a trolling attempt against religions and philosophers. Kinda ironic from someone with the name Sacred_Path

 

Can't quite follow you there, I was simply remarking that "my fantasy is less escapist than your fantasy" is kind of a silly idea.

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality.

 

That's true for all fantasy (and gaming in general) though. I think there is room for trying to reach adult players even though there are orcs and dragons around

I am not sure if that was a serious remark, to me it looks like a trolling attempt against religions and philosophers. Kinda ironic from someone with the name Sacred_Path

 

Can't quite follow you there, I was simply remarking that "my fantasy is less escapist than your fantasy" is kind of a silly idea.

I meant "all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy" are basically the core for RL philosopy and religions too (especially Buddhism)

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seems to be "trendy" these days that everyone bashes religions and I thought you just joined their ranks.

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The theme of the game isn't very mature, all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy are escape mechanisms from reality.

 

That's true for all fantasy (and gaming in general) though. I think there is room for trying to reach adult players even though there are orcs and dragons around

I am not sure if that was a serious remark, to me it looks like a trolling attempt against religions and philosophers. Kinda ironic from someone with the name Sacred_Path

 

Can't quite follow you there, I was simply remarking that "my fantasy is less escapist than your fantasy" is kind of a silly idea.

I meant "all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy" are basically the core for RL philosopy and religions too (especially Buddhism)

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seems to be "trendy" these days that everyone bashes religions and I thought you just joined their ranks.

 

Everybody on the Internet yes, but that's because in the real world it's largely the other way around.

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not really, 2 weeks ago an atheist burned an old catholic church in a village here down, I do actually see the increased hostility against religion in RL mirroring on what happened in the medieval era (or even today in the muslim world) and people started to avoid talking about what they believe in, or even lie that they follow any faith

 

it isn't the norm yet, but I worry it will be, in the past there were witch-hunts, there might be in a hundred years one against believers of some higher power, hope it won't come to that though.

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not really, 2 weeks ago an atheist burned an old catholic church in a village here down, I do actually see the increased hostility against religion in RL mirroring on what happened in the medieval era (or even today in the muslim world) and people started to avoid talking about what they believe in, or even lie that they follow any faith

 

it isn't the norm yet, but I worry it will be, in the past there were witch-hunts, there might be in a hundred years one against believers of some higher power, hope it won't come to that though.

 

Let's not make this a discussion. Suffice it to say I respectfully disagree.

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not really, 2 weeks ago an atheist burned an old catholic church in a village here down, I do actually see the increased hostility against religion in RL mirroring on what happened in the medieval era (or even today in the muslim world) and people started to avoid talking about what they believe in, or even lie that they follow any faith

 

it isn't the norm yet, but I worry it will be, in the past there were witch-hunts, there might be in a hundred years one against believers of some higher power, hope it won't come to that though.

 

Let's not make this a discussion. Suffice it to say I respectfully disagree.

 

...what?

 

you mean you hope it will come to it? o.O

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not really, 2 weeks ago an atheist burned an old catholic church in a village here down, I do actually see the increased hostility against religion in RL mirroring on what happened in the medieval era (or even today in the muslim world) and people started to avoid talking about what they believe in, or even lie that they follow any faith

 

it isn't the norm yet, but I worry it will be, in the past there were witch-hunts, there might be in a hundred years one against believers of some higher power, hope it won't come to that though.

 

Let's not make this a discussion. Suffice it to say I respectfully disagree.

 

...what?

 

you mean you hope it will come to it? o.O

 

no...I mean I disagree with everything you said, not just the outcome. But like I said, let's keep it relevant. So...Mature themes...

Edited by jezz555
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I meant "all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy" are basically the core for RL philosopy and religions too (especially Buddhism)

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seems to be "trendy" these days that everyone bashes religions and I thought you just joined their ranks.

 

nop. Personally I find it funny (and a good thing) that RPGs are probably the last bastion in life where religion is simply accepted. Even people who want to play an atheist character don't usually argue against gods simply existing.

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not really, 2 weeks ago an atheist burned an old catholic church in a village here down, I do actually see the increased hostility against religion in RL mirroring on what happened in the medieval era (or even today in the muslim world) and people started to avoid talking about what they believe in, or even lie that they follow any faith

 

it isn't the norm yet, but I worry it will be, in the past there were witch-hunts, there might be in a hundred years one against believers of some higher power, hope it won't come to that though.

 

Let's not make this a discussion. Suffice it to say I respectfully disagree.

 

...what?

 

you mean you hope it will come to it? o.O

 

no...I mean I disagree with everything you said, not just the outcome. But like I said, let's keep it relevant. So...Mature themes...

 

I guess you must be from the USA then, or maybe Ireland, only there can we still fing aggressive religious/fundamentalist/etc groups of large enough size in the christian western world, people there sometimes try to even ban evolution from schools

 

However, even in the US and in many other nations one can notice the increase of atheism and "anti-religionism". I myself don't have to agree or disagree with this "opinion" as I lived through it, with experiencing the church fire being a more extreme example, for me its a fact.

 

As for mature themes: political and religious conflicts are jst as well mature themes, if done right, although with Dragon Age 3 going to be about a crusade I doubt Obsidian will include a similar theme (btw, did I mention yet how I hate it that DA3 will once again forces you to be human and won't have other racial options?)

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I meant "all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy" are basically the core for RL philosopy and religions too (especially Buddhism)

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seems to be "trendy" these days that everyone bashes religions and I thought you just joined their ranks.

 

nop. Personally I find it funny (and a good thing) that RPGs are probably the last bastion in life where religion is simply accepted. Even people who want to play an atheist character don't usually argue against gods simply existing.

 

Yeah, I kinda see your point there, but then again I have also noticed atheists "raging" in RPG to have to follow gods simply because they exist in the setting, one of the reasons why there is a semi-commie atheist empire in the setting of Pathfinder. Also, there were protests against the game SPORE because it had faith/religion depicted as an important evolutional step/era. (sigh)

The most recent Civilization game (5 I guess) also avoided religion but later added it back in an expansion.

Edited by Jorian Drake

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I'm agreeing with the posts which are specifying mature as the in-depth exploration of adult topics, especially those which have relevance to current issues in human right and geopolitical considerations. That being said, your character should definitely be able to have sex, and hopefully in a more graphic manner than in games past. Heck, you should be able to invest skill points into it, if you so choose. It's a great motivator and game-changer in real life, so why not in this realistic fantasy world?

Even in this world more things exist without our knowledge than with it and the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way. For existence has its own order and that no man’s mind can compass, that mind itself being but a fact among others.

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I meant "all this soul stuff and rebirth and philosophy" are basically the core for RL philosopy and religions too (especially Buddhism)

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seems to be "trendy" these days that everyone bashes religions and I thought you just joined their ranks.

 

nop. Personally I find it funny (and a good thing) that RPGs are probably the last bastion in life where religion is simply accepted. Even people who want to play an atheist character don't usually argue against gods simply existing.

 

Yeah, I kinda see your point there, but then again I have also noticed atheists "raging" in RPG to have to follow gods simply because they exist in the setting, one of the reasons why there is a semi-commie atheist empire in the setting of Pathfinder. Also, there were protests against the game SPORE because it had faith/religion depicted as an important evolutional step/era. (sigh)

The most recent Civilization game (5 I guess) also avoided religion but later added it back in an expansion.

 

Look here doofus. If you want to believe in magic IRL that's your choice. This is a fantasy game. The similarity (or dissimilarity) of themes in the game to your actual beliefs is neither a condemnation or endorsement of them. If you can't get that through your thick skull then at least just bow out with some dignity so the rest of us can get back to a relevant discussion

 

P.S. @ Sacred Path: If the legitimacy of your entire belief system hinges on the fact that deities exist in fantasy video games you've got some serious problems...

Edited by Mandragore
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not really, 2 weeks ago an atheist burned an old catholic church in a village here down, I do actually see the increased hostility against religion in RL mirroring on what happened in the medieval era (or even today in the muslim world) and people started to avoid talking about what they believe in, or even lie that they follow any faith

 

it isn't the norm yet, but I worry it will be, in the past there were witch-hunts, there might be in a hundred years one against believers of some higher power, hope it won't come to that though.

However, even in the US and in many other nations one can notice the increase of atheism and "anti-religionism". I myself don't have to agree or disagree with this "opinion" as I lived through it, with experiencing the church fire being a more extreme example, for me its a fact.

 

Bizarre conspiracy theories aside...

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P.S. @ Sacred Path: If the legitimacy of your entire belief system hinges on the fact that deities exist in fantasy video games you've got some serious problems...

 

I presume you are trolling good sir.

 

But to get this thread back on track, obviously religious issues don't go down with all players as smoothly as one could think (or as OE thought, even). Should religion then be a matter of serious discussion in the game? Are there many players who would like to question the entire concept of souls and their reincarnation ingame? This could be a really mature element (as long as it doesn't just result in some kewl gods-defying dialogue options)

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P.S. @ Sacred Path: If the legitimacy of your entire belief system hinges on the fact that deities exist in fantasy video games you've got some serious problems...

 

I presume you are trolling good sir.

 

But to get this thread back on track, obviously religious issues don't go down with all players as smoothly as one could think (or as OE thought, even). Should religion then be a matter of serious discussion in the game? Are there many players who would like to question the entire concept of souls and their reincarnation ingame? This could be a really mature element (as long as it doesn't just result in some kewl gods-defying dialogue options)

 

In fantasy games the gods are explicitly real, manifesting avatars, fueling divine magic etc. The main case for atheism IRL is that there is no such evidence. So what would the discussion be? I'm an atheist and I have no problem whatsoever with gods/magic etc in video games and PnPs, if I wasn't looking for escapism and fantasy, I wouldn't be playing them in the first place.

 

The reincarnation thing sounds fine to me. The degree to which people are aware of it is something else however. Are people aware that they'll come back after death? Do they retain their memories? Is the concept treated as fact or superstition by the games inhabitants? etc. The answers to these questions are part of what separate low and high fantasy. Personally I hate settings where the inhabitants understand magic and the afterlife well enough to turn it into a science, IMO it removes all the fear and mystery from the world.

Edited by Mandragore
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In fantasy games the gods are explicitly real, manifesting avatars, fueling divine magic etc. The main case for atheism IRL is that there is no such evidence. So what would the discussion be? I'm an atheist and I have no problem whatsoever with gods/magic etc in video games and PnPs, if I wasn't looking for escapism and fantasy, I wouldn't be playing them in the first place.

 

You could play an atheist though, someone who comes up with other explanations for disasters or natural phenomena. And since not even you as the player could distinguish i.e. a natural fire or lightning from a god-sent one, this shouldn't strain credulity. Also, you could try to spirit people away from cults, weakening their power base as well as their gods maybe.

 

The reincarnation thing sounds fine to me. The degree to which people are aware of it is something else however. Are people aware that they'll come back after death? Do they retain their memories? Is the concept treated as fact or superstition by the games inhabitants? etc. The answers to these questions are part of what separate low and high fantasy. Personally I hate settings where the inhabitants understand magic and the afterlife well enough to turn it into a science, IMO it removes all the fear and mystery from the world.

 

Yes I think these things should be kept mysterious, not only ingame but also in the information that the player has. This way, like I said above, it wouldn't be a stretch to play your character as a sceptic. Certain people might remember real past lives or they might just imagine ****.

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In fantasy games the gods are explicitly real, manifesting avatars, fueling divine magic etc. The main case for atheism IRL is that there is no such evidence. So what would the discussion be? I'm an atheist and I have no problem whatsoever with gods/magic etc in video games and PnPs, if I wasn't looking for escapism and fantasy, I wouldn't be playing them in the first place.

 

You could play an atheist though, someone who comes up with other explanations for disasters or natural phenomena. And since not even you as the player could distinguish i.e. a natural fire or lightning from a god-sent one, this shouldn't strain credulity. Also, you could try to spirit people away from cults, weakening their power base as well as their gods maybe.

 

 

What I'm trying to say is that I'm only an atheist in real life because it makes sense to me. If I lived in say, the forgotten realms universe, I would be a believer because with physical evidence of magic and stuff lying around all over the place that's what would seem the most rational to me.

 

All I want is the characters to have motivations that make sense. If there are real, active, interventionist gods, please don't have some herp de derp "skeptic" stereotype staggering around spouting off about the gods not being real all while surrounded by magic and other blatantly supernatural phenomena. If its more ambiguous then I could see having doubting or skeptic characters. Even if the gods definitely exist I could see having a character like Hyperion from the immortals who knows they exist but hates them for some reason, although unless (like Hyperion) he actually has some way to protect himself from them or hurt them, it would just be silly.

 

When I DM I usually go for possibly non-existant or actively uncaring gods, because I feel like doing otherwise makes the players, particularly divine magic users feel too powerless. I hope PE takes the same route. It would be really cool if they did something similar to the Lovecraftian pantheon.

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I think the roleplaying potential shouldn't be underestimated there. Of course you can't port r/w contemporary atheism into the game 1:1, but that's not the point of an RPG anyway so you shouldn't expect that.

 

Playing a pure skeptic would be possible, but it would be just as possible to simply emphasize that people shouldn't rely on gods and fate too much and take some initiative. You could be mild-mannered and forgiving about it or really fanatical. Besides the gods there could be other super-human beings in existence that promise you to free everyone from the yoke of the gods if they follow them.

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In fantasy games the gods are explicitly real, manifesting avatars, fueling divine magic etc. The main case for atheism IRL is that there is no such evidence. So what would the discussion be? I'm an atheist and I have no problem whatsoever with gods/magic etc in video games and PnPs, if I wasn't looking for escapism and fantasy, I wouldn't be playing them in the first place.

 

How about what defines a god? Awesome powers? We have the capability to do things today that people a few centuries ago would consider godlike. We know there are 'gods' in the setting, but do they deserve such a title? Are they just really powerful individuals or do they possess some innate 'divine-ness' that warrants them to be treated like a god? In short, does having power warrant worship? What about if they created the world, does that warrant you worshipping them or are they still fallible beings? It has been said by the devs that the gods have withheld knowledge on certain things, are they afraid that mortals may become like them?

 

What I'm trying to say is that I'm only an atheist in real life because it makes sense to me. If I lived in say, the forgotten realms universe, I would be a believer because with physical evidence of magic and stuff lying around all over the place that's what would seem the most rational to me.

 

So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

Edited by FlintlockJazz
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In fantasy games the gods are explicitly real, manifesting avatars, fueling divine magic etc. The main case for atheism IRL is that there is no such evidence. So what would the discussion be? I'm an atheist and I have no problem whatsoever with gods/magic etc in video games and PnPs, if I wasn't looking for escapism and fantasy, I wouldn't be playing them in the first place.

 

How about what defines a god? Awesome powers? We have the capability to do things today that people a few centuries ago would consider godlike. We know there are 'gods' in the setting, but do they deserve such a title? Are they just really powerful individuals or do they possess some innate 'divine-ness' that warrants them to be treated like a god? In short, does having power warrant worship? What about if they created the world, does that warrant you worshipping them or are they still fallible beings? It has been said by the devs that the gods have withheld knowledge on certain things, are they afraid that mortals may become like them?

 

What I'm trying to say is that I'm only an atheist in real life because it makes sense to me. If I lived in say, the forgotten realms universe, I would be a believer because with physical evidence of magic and stuff lying around all over the place that's what would seem the most rational to me.

 

So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

 

I suppose this would have to do with what defines a god, because there are different examples. The greek god's weren't all creators either, and were petty, but we still refer to them as gods.

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