Mature themes

[Sacred_Path]

It's been made known that PE will explore MADSHURE themes. We're still left to guess as to how that pans out.

 

I think that today, that inevitably means romances. I just hope that they will be written in such a mature manner and with such relevance for gameplay that they are more than the usual nuisance.

Just as inevitable are comments about social issues like racism, sexism or class struggles. What is nice about these is that they can be injected into dialogue without much effort and give it a hint of maturity and relevance.

I'd also expect some light philosophical dialogues as in PS:T. I'm not sure wether that's a good thing yet.

What I'd personally like to see is more internal consistency of the world, like a somewhat believable economy.

 

What do you expect to see, and what makes you feel like you're not playing a game that was made for kids?

[-Zin-]

I will win teh shecks and see 1 seconds of boobies for teh lulz

[LadyCrimson]

To me, mature themes in games means something more along the lines of deeper contemplation of the grey areas (eg, what lies between good and evil, moral and immoral) and how such things can alter and affect someone during the the course of their life. Struggles with decisions that aren't black and white...what do you choose to do.

 

Social issues work if you're hitting some of those grey areas, but if it's just broad "social commentary" - oh look, this town is poor and starving under the tyrant's rule and I must gather them 10 sacks of grain so they can survive the winter - I tend to feel a bit blase about it. Needs to be personalized in some way.

[Jojobobo]

I couldn't be bothered to paraphrase so I thought I'd just self-quote:

 

Thinking about it a bit more, if Obsidian really wanted to play with fire they could allow the character to develop abusive relationships (I'm thinking verbally, not physically) with others or even develop a romantic relationship with someone just to have sex with them and then sack them off. The trouble is people seem to think if these things are options in games then the game itself is advocating it as a lifestyle choice, which it simply is not - people are often mordibly curious (as in interested, but not wishing or desiring to mimic this behaviour) about these choices for exactly the same reasons as people are interested in watching a gory horror film or researching a particularly inhumane historical government. V:tM~B allowed the player to create a ghoul (essentially someone who becomes slavishly enamoured with the PC because the are - in a way - drugging them to feel that way) who you could abuse verbally and kill any time you chose, they also allowed for torture at a few moments in the game (but not with a character you were romantically involved with) so it's not like there is no prior examples of content like this being in a game. It depends how far down the rabit hole of mature themes the dev team want to go. I for one would like them to reach the bottom.

 

EDIT: Just thought I'd mention being abusive should not be without consequences, like a companion eventually getting sick of it and trying to kill the PC.

I'd like to see this, and I think forming an abusive relationship would be a great way of exploring mature themes because it's relevant to contempory issues and it would get under a lot of people's skin. Sexism and racism are fine but they are all variations on what is at it's simplest being unpleasant to another person; targeting and actively abusing a PC requires a lot more participation then a character going around saying "You Orlan have stupid ears and like to kiss your sisters", etc. Also having to comit a crime or work with a particularly malignant criminal organisation to achieve a good goal might also be interesting (such as how an under cover cop might have to witness unspeakable things yet maintain his composure and not do anything about them in order to crack a particularly difficult case).

[Sacred_Path]

Social issues work if you're hitting some of those grey areas, but if it's just broad "social commentary" - oh look, this town is poor and starving under the tyrant's rule and I must gather them 10 sacks of grain so they can survive the winter - I tend to feel a bit blase about it. Needs to be personalized in some way.

 

I second that (when I said it's neat and easy to tack this onto some dialogue I meant it's neat for the developers, not the players). What also bothers me is how the player usually stands outside of all these issues - they're never discriminated against, and they're never caught up in any devious capitalist mechanics that eat up all their gold.

[BetrayTheWorld]

Moral ambiguity, racy subjects like abuse, racism, sexism, slavery, abortion, etc, etc should not be shied away from. One of my biggest issues with modern games, entertainment, and even life in general in the US is that everyone is walking on eggshells to try to be politically correct. But this culture of politeness does nothing to address the underlying issues that cause such feelings and situations to begin with. Give me these choices. Let me see the effects of slavery first-hand. Let me see a dim, harsh reality all around me, and let ME decide how to deal with it. That's what I want out of my roleplaying games.

 

Oh, and I want to see my hot mage companion's boobs. lol

[Sacred_Path]

Also having to comit a crime or work with a particularly malignant criminal organisation to achieve a good goal might also be interesting (such as how an under cover cop might have to witness unspeakable things yet maintain his composure and not do anything about them in order to crack a particularly difficult case).

 

That's the kind of thing I expect to see, too - creating the "grey" by having the player sway between "white" and "black". What I'm wondering about is what consequences they will come up with that really affect the player - without an alignment meter that satisfyingly (somewhat) drops or rises, will the consequences of such actions ever matter to anyone but you?

[Jojobobo]

I think the relations that a town or city develops towards you that they have said are in the game will cover consequences pretty well, so I wouldn't worry on that account.

 

I think it's perhaps important to say that mature themes shouldn't be in adundance all the time - fantasy games I think inherently should incorporate at times a sense of hope and wonder - but they should be there, lurking in the dark corners of society; waiting for the character to look a little deeper into a situation they do not feel is all that it appears to be. That way people could choose to be ignorant if they wanted, just like how some people turn a blind eye in real life to things they perhaps shouldn't.

[Hellfell]

Mature themes should absolutely be present yet they need to have logical reasons to back them up. Eg rasism in medieval society with multitude of races living near each other is so natural that it would be strange not to include the issue if PE wants to be any mature. Slavery, drugs, sexism, minority abuse is a powerful base for story and setting development.

 

However, these themes should not be "in yo face!" cheesy and over the top. (I'm looking at you, "M rated boobs")

[Jojobobo]

Well in that case maybe some cultures should remain "pure" so to speak, especially the less developed and less materialistic ones.

[FlintlockJazz]

Deconstruction and reconstruction of typical fantasy stuff. As in, taking certain aspects of fantasy and then applying them to a more realistic setting and seeing how they would impact such a world. What effect would magic have on a real world economy? It could fuel or stump progression, depending on how widespread and easy it is compared to normal technology. What about the adventurers' impact on actual settlements? And the existence of monsters? How about how the gods being provable and actually giving aide to their worshippers would impact theology and how mortals view the divine? Those are the kind of things I'd like to see. Rape? Rascism? Sex? Usually put in as a juvenile attempt at appearing mature and gritty.

[Archmage Silver]

I've also understood 'mature themes' to mean more discussion/commentary on the 'grey areas' of humanity. I'll write up some examples of what I might expect to see in a fantasy RPG like Project Eternity:

 

Does the end justify the means? #1

You're stocking supplies in a coastal town. You've been hearing about a plague sweeping up from the west, and are planning to leave on the next ship. You were among the last people to be allowed in before the local ruler garrisoned the town. When you're paying the blacksmith for his work, you hear noise from the gate. You wander over to see what's happening - there are archers shouting at people standing a distance away from the gates. You hear people whispering about the plague.

Do you allow the local ruler's archers to shoot down the mob of people because some of them might be carrying the plague? This could prove to be a wise decision - after all, you've heard that there's no cure for this plague.

Or do you grant them entry across the town perimeter and potentially endanger hundreds of healthy citizens? Maybe this is something you could live with, regardless of the consequences. Or could you?

Or do you simply leave, wanting to have nothing to do with any of it? Perhaps this isn't your fight, and you're certainly not the ruler here.

 

Does the end justify the means? #2

You come across a society that uses slave labor. After freeing a slave by coincidence, you're not confronted by soldiers or enforcers, but by a family that claims the slave as theirs. Things have been the same for two centuries, the people you're dealing with don't know any other way. They're not going to let you out of their estate yard with the slave in tow, and more people are on their way to you.

Do you cut them down in cold blood because you refuse to leave the now-former slave? After all, this is all these people have ever known.

Or do you hand over the slave to avoid bloodshed and make a timely escape, none the worse for wear? Everyone survives.

Or do you challenge their views, but refuse to attack them, instead risking your own lives to try and reason with them and the people gathering around you? You risk having to kill two dozen people to survive if your oratory prowess proves lacking.

[BetrayTheWorld]

Rape? Rascism? Sex? Usually put in as a juvenile attempt at appearing mature and gritty.

 

Uh, no. To be more accurate: Usually simply not put in.

 

Rape, racism, and sex are all very real things. Ignoring their existence is juvenile, not the other way around. As a game created for a mature audience capable of dealing with mature issues, I don't think any serious subject should be discarded off-the-cuff.

 

That said, I agree with the rest your previous post.

[BetrayTheWorld]

I've also understood 'mature themes' to mean more discussion/commentary on the 'grey areas' of humanity. I'll write up some examples of what I might expect to see in a fantasy RPG like Project Eternity:

 

Does the end justify the means? #1

You're stocking supplies in a coastal town. You've been hearing about a plague sweeping up from the west, and are planning to leave on the next ship. You were among the last people to be allowed in before the local ruler garrisoned the town. When you're paying the blacksmith for his work, you hear noise from the gate. You wander over to see what's happening - there are archers shouting at people standing a distance away from the gates. You hear people whispering about the plague.

Do you allow the local ruler's archers to shoot down the mob of people because some of them might be carrying the plague? This could prove to be a wise decision - after all, you've heard that there's no cure for this plague.

Or do you grant them entry across the town perimeter and potentially endanger hundreds of healthy citizens? Maybe this is something you could live with, regardless of the consequences. Or could you?

Or do you simply leave, wanting to have nothing to do with any of it? Perhaps this isn't your fight, and you're certainly not the ruler here.

 

Does the end justify the means? #2

You come across a society that uses slave labor. After freeing a slave by coincidence, you're not confronted by soldiers or enforcers, but by a family that claims the slave as theirs. Things have been the same for two centuries, the people you're dealing with don't know any other way. They're not going to let you out of their estate yard with the slave in tow, and more people are on their way to you.

Do you cut them down in cold blood because you refuse to leave the now-former slave? After all, this is all these people have ever known.

Or do you hand over the slave to avoid bloodshed and make a timely escape, none the worse for wear? Everyone survives.

Or do you challenge their views, but refuse to attack them, instead risking your own lives to try and reason with them and the people gathering around you? You risk having to kill two dozen people to survive if your oratory prowess proves lacking.

 

I generally like where you're going here, but I'd prefer more choices that don't automatically assume I'm a nice guy. For instance, being able to purchase said slave. Then you have the option of setting them free, or making them do your laundry back at the stronghold.

Edited November 11, 2012 by BetrayTheWorld

[Jojobobo]

I think subversion of what common use of mature themes are about (boobies, graphic displays of dismemberment) might be fun, in a dark way. Say there's this really tasty elf in the game, and she's putting the moves on your character. You think, well why not - I'm sure my character would want a bit of hey-hey. The elf then, during some sort of sordid activity, castrates the character and whilst they're in agony robs them blind. Perhaps a bit too much of a slap in the face for most players, but you get the idea.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

What do you expect to see, and what makes you feel like you're not playing a game that was made for kids?

 

The absence of straightforward "romance", sexism, racism, and "class" struggles. Oh, and very little use of four-letter words.

 

One of the things I liked about the character of Fenris in Dragon Age 2, for instance, was how hard he would try initially to be fair to you about mages even though it was obvious he was an emotional wreck underneath. It gave him a weirdly flat affect when you first met him. Anders' initial flat affect just felt like poor voice-acting, though, so it's hard to say.

 

But what I most like to see is people treating subjects with calm seriousness instead of feeling the need to make constant jokes about sex or (worse) dissolve into hysterics. I HATE it when the writers idea of "maturity" means "people act like they're in The Real Housewives of Eternity". Adults DO NOT act like that. The most telling sign of maturity is when you start to qualify your statements instead of spouting all kinds of absolute generalizations. If you want to see real adults reacting to stressful situations, watch, say, Chopped on Food Network. Even in the throes of hideous disappointment, people are polite and respectful, most of them remain cheerful and take their defeat in stride. Most of the real emotional display comes from the people who WON, not those who lost.

 

Dial up the subtlety. You have to tell someone that their husband was killed in battle? Instead of "OH GOD, WHATEVER WILL I DO!!!! *sob*" How about "I . . . thank you for telling me. Please, if you would . . . I need some time."

 

Oh, not that there shouldn't be hysterics and lunatics around, just that they should be anomalous instead of ubiquitous.

 

Oh, and don't make me play a 16-year-old PC who is an uninformed boob and has never read a book or traveled outside of StartingVillage. Let me play as the Wise Voice Of Reason and Knowledge if I choose.

[Archmage Silver]

I've also understood 'mature themes' to mean more discussion/commentary on the 'grey areas' of humanity. I'll write up some examples of what I might expect to see in a fantasy RPG like Project Eternity:

 

Does the end justify the means? #1

You're stocking supplies in a coastal town. You've been hearing about a plague sweeping up from the west, and are planning to leave on the next ship. You were among the last people to be allowed in before the local ruler garrisoned the town. When you're paying the blacksmith for his work, you hear noise from the gate. You wander over to see what's happening - there are archers shouting at people standing a distance away from the gates. You hear people whispering about the plague.

Do you allow the local ruler's archers to shoot down the mob of people because some of them might be carrying the plague? This could prove to be a wise decision - after all, you've heard that there's no cure for this plague.

Or do you grant them entry across the town perimeter and potentially endanger hundreds of healthy citizens? Maybe this is something you could live with, regardless of the consequences. Or could you?

Or do you simply leave, wanting to have nothing to do with any of it? Perhaps this isn't your fight, and you're certainly not the ruler here.

 

Does the end justify the means? #2

You come across a society that uses slave labor. After freeing a slave by coincidence, you're not confronted by soldiers or enforcers, but by a family that claims the slave as theirs. Things have been the same for two centuries, the people you're dealing with don't know any other way. They're not going to let you out of their estate yard with the slave in tow, and more people are on their way to you.

Do you cut them down in cold blood because you refuse to leave the now-former slave? After all, this is all these people have ever known.

Or do you hand over the slave to avoid bloodshed and make a timely escape, none the worse for wear? Everyone survives.

Or do you challenge their views, but refuse to attack them, instead risking your own lives to try and reason with them and the people gathering around you? You risk having to kill two dozen people to survive if your oratory prowess proves lacking.

 

I generally like where you're going here, but I'd prefer more choices that don't automatically assume I'm a nice guy. For instance, being able to purchase said slave. Then you have the option of setting them free, or making them do your laundry back at the stronghold.

There are too many variables and options to cover, so I only included a few, but you get the picture.

[JOG]

Rape, racism, and sex are all very real things. Ignoring their existence is juvenile, not the other way around. As a game created for a mature audience capable of dealing with mature issues, I don't think any serious subject should be discarded off-the-cuff.

 

It's mature to accept those things as very real and then move on, it's something that can/should exist, but it's not something that needs to be displayed. It's okay when a man hires you to kill someone who had his way with his daughter, but I don't want to actually see the deed.

 

The female caravan guard in FO:NV who lies on the road in powder ganger territory is a good example of mature presentation of mature content. It's obvious what happened to her, no need to show or describe it in any more detail.

 

A good example of juvenile presentation of mature content is the NWN mod "A dance with rogues": A very excellent RP mod with a bit too much emphasis on describing and playing out each and any variety of mature themes.

[Jymm]

Isnt this one of those vexing topics where mature people will recognize mature content when they see it?

 

Violence and sex displayed for excitement and without resulting consequences is shallow and definitely not what I would consider mature content. When things are shown as they would really be, without glossing over inconvenient subjects or the consequences of action, that leads to a more mature presentation in my view. We can say that X race is poor and exploited and then make merry plots that include that assumption. But what does that single piece of lore imply? If you can get across what life really means for that race in a population center then you can make people think more and raise the maturity level of your work. Realistic onsequences of people's actions have to matter too. I can't rob everyone in town X and then trot down the road to town Y and expect that nobody there will catch news of my deeds. I can't mistreat one of my companions and make decisions that go against their ethos at every turn and then expect them to remain forever loyal or buy back their favor with a scripted bauble. You can make an FPS as bloody as you want and even if it nets a mature rating for violence there is nothing "mature" about a game that lets you respawn at will, take dozens of bullets without dying, kill thousands of enemy soldiers without any repercussion...

 

At some point you must figure how you want to balance this with a level of heroism, positivity, or even just plain fun. If its too much like the real world then at some point you may lose some people's interest and that must be weighed. There are still incredibly few games willing to sacrifice serious market share for a moving, realistic, and mature (but potentially un-fun) presentation.

[Osvir]

Mature themes to me:

- Someone is starving on the streets, not just one but many of the poor folks, they reach for me and I can kick them in the face, or they overwhelm me in their desperation, I can't help just one because then all of them will be over me like hungry wolf's.

- A large ocean cruiser/boat (Titanic) crashes into an iceberg and I have to choose to bring as many as I possible can into the rescue boat I am in or start hitting them with a paddle or else the boat will sink. Panic. Like I skimmed in the thread someone mentioning moral and immoral decisions.

- Blood and stretching so far to the gore. Gluttonous fat Lords dripping their fingers in sauce and mocking, smacking lips at, my main character as he/she is in front of this Lord on his/her knees, pinned down to chains and haven't eaten in several days and in this grand hall the Lord mocks the hunger in of the character in a most torturous way.

- Not any Horror Hollywood flicks, not "Splatter"-gore in any way or any too detailed features in terms of "cutting a man down stomping on his face and gauging his eyes out to feast on", visually no, but maybe in [text].

- Sex is Mature too, but I feel that Mature is more "Wise", "Serious", it can be very "Light" too, but for some reason the word itself feels "Dark" in a "Noir"-ish way. Mature has the reign to be more emotionally powerful, though I did cry at the end of Toy Story 3 (childhood memories, I grew up with this movie series), I value Toy Story as having Mature themes too that a child would just laugh at, but an adult would understand philosophize about it.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Osvir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I would like there to be great mysteries in the world that have no clear answer. Here is a small list of examples....

1. What are the Gods?
   
2. What is a Soul?
   
3. Is Necromancy inherently evil?
   
4. Is someone more than the sum of their parts?
   
5. What is "love"?
   
6. Is there "good" and "evil"?
   
7. Is everything predetermined?
   

If PE explored these questions without beating the player over the head with the "right" answer, then I would feel that it is a mature game. While rape, sex, and racism, should be included for the sake of realism, just slapping them on and declaring that PE is a mature game would feel like a cop out.

[Sacred_Path]

Rape? Rascism? Sex? Usually put in as a juvenile attempt at appearing mature and gritty.

 

Yes, it's all about the presentation. Which is probably why rape is not usually portrayed in CRPGs, there are so many wrong notes you could hit there. [The other reason is that RPGs tend to be egalitarian and you'd need some female-on-male rape just because]

 

I've also understood 'mature themes' to mean more discussion/commentary on the 'grey areas' of humanity. I'll write up some examples of what I might expect to see in a fantasy RPG like Project Eternity:

 

Does the end justify the means? #1

You're stocking supplies in a coastal town. You've been hearing about a plague sweeping up from the west, and are planning to leave on the next ship. You were among the last people to be allowed in before the local ruler garrisoned the town. When you're paying the blacksmith for his work, you hear noise from the gate. You wander over to see what's happening - there are archers shouting at people standing a distance away from the gates. You hear people whispering about the plague.

Do you allow the local ruler's archers to shoot down the mob of people because some of them might be carrying the plague? This could prove to be a wise decision - after all, you've heard that there's no cure for this plague.

Or do you grant them entry across the town perimeter and potentially endanger hundreds of healthy citizens? Maybe this is something you could live with, regardless of the consequences. Or could you?

Or do you simply leave, wanting to have nothing to do with any of it? Perhaps this isn't your fight, and you're certainly not the ruler here.

 

This is interesting. Will people be happy to roleplay without a clear "moral compass"? Would you really just walk away from content, missing out on playtime, XP and gold? Will people miss the hero and villain routes, because they give you clear objectives and a pat on the head (alignment/ reputation)?

 

Dial up the subtlety. You have to tell someone that their husband was killed in battle? Instead of "OH GOD, WHATEVER WILL I DO!!!! *sob*" How about "I . . . thank you for telling me. Please, if you would . . . I need some time."

 

Related to the question above, would people miss clear, "hysterical" NPCs if they're presented with more subtle dialogue? After all, it has to make an impact on you (or at least try to). Morte basically only had over the top, cheesy dialogue, but people mostly loved him.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Some of the most mature games I've played were Teen rated and they barely broached the topic of romance, let alone sex. There was no excess of violence or gore and a large number of battles could simply be avoided by a diplomatic tongue.

 

The reason I found these games to be infinitely more mature than other titles is because they challenged me in a very adult manner. They gave me scenarios that forced me to question my deepest beliefs and occasionally had me completely U turning and supporting a cause I never believed I would. They required me to puzzle through some of the hardest riddles and word games. They required me to choose between my closest friends, my own well being and the characters outside of my party that I had grown to love.

 

They were fueled by deep, engaging and belief shattering stories. Stories that made me turn not only on my companions, but also on my Gods. Stories that made me question my sense of justice, my morality and my mortality. Stories full of torturous horrors that were neither violent nor gorey, but things that disturbed me to my very core.

 

A mature game, to me personally, is something that can boast a deep, intellectual, emotional and engaging story line. Capable of challenging me intellectually, emotionally and philosophically. I have no doubt that Project Eternity will produce such a game.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Sylvanpyxie

[SophosTheWise]

I would like there to be great mysteries in the world that have no clear answer. Here is a small list of examples....

1. What are the Gods?
    
   
2. What is a Soul?
    
   
3. Is Necromancy inherently evil?
    
   
4. Is someone more than the sum of their parts?
    
   
5. What is "love"?
    
   
6. Is there "good" and "evil"?
    
   
7. Is everything predetermined?
   

If PE explored these questions without beating the player over the head with the "right" answer, then I would feel that it is a mature game. While rape, sex, and racism, should be included for the sake of realism, just slapping them on and declaring that PE is a mature game would feel like a cop out.

 

I think questions 1 and 2 are obsolete. It seems to me that the Gods in PE are as manifested as they are in any other Fantasy games. That's the problem with Gods that are proven to exist, there is no speculation anymore and if they are omnipotent as suggestet, than there is no point in any other religious stances other than theism and antitheism. Everything interesting on the believing-meter from ignosticism, agnosticism, atheism, deism - all those speculative philosophical ideas are obsolete because there is no question there.Same with the soul. Soul seems to be a manifested material, as unmystical and not-transcendent as a leg or a lung.

 

The questions about good and evil are nice, but I don't think that it is wise to pose these questions while bombarding the player with situations like in Star Trek. That may work in that system, because that system assumes a humanistic worldview. If you don't like humanism, you'll likely hate Star Trek. So the only possibilty for PE besides assuming a position itself is just giving the player a wide range of possibilities with an even wider range of ways to deal with it and neither should be better than the other. Basically the question about good and evil often leads to a relativistic point of view - not that I have anything against it, but the problem with relativism is that it is also a position and not "neutral" as many people might think.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I think questions 1 and 2 are obsolete.

 

I disagree. In the PE setting, people are still unsure what exactly a soul is and there is apparently some academic debate about what the gods are.

 

The questions about good and evil are nice, but I don't think that it is wise to pose these questions while bombarding the player with situations like in Star Trek. That may work in that system, because that system assumes a humanistic worldview. If you don't like humanism, you'll likely hate Star Trek. So the only possibilty for PE besides assuming a position itself is just giving the player a wide range of possibilities with an even wider range of ways to deal with it and neither should be better than the other. Basically the question about good and evil often leads to a relativistic point of view - not that I have anything against it, but the problem with relativism is that it is also a position and not "neutral" as many people might think.

 

Have you read the Hellblazer comic? I'm asking because the Heaven vs Hell conflict is how I think that the good-evil debate could be framed well.