I need Ironman mode because I have poor impulse control

[HangedMan]

I'm pretty sure you flubbed that, Heresiarch. As I'm reading it, we need to get one thing straight: the definition of the word "Should". "Should" implies that you have an obligation to do something. So I believe PsychoBlonde (and please, correct me if I am wrong) is asking "Who decides what is and is not an obligation, and why is it an obligation?" Or something to that effect.

I am pretty sure that's one of them rhetorical questions.

Who decides who should pay for our mistakes? Well, if you mug someone, it would be common law, if you lie, it's your consciousness, if you mix acetaminophen with alcohol, it's biology. So it largely depends on the situation at hand.

 

I believe PsychoBlonde's question was more about why than about who. So I answered why would you want an obligation to pay for your mistakes in a game. It takes your gameplay to a whole new level. As simple as that. And no, it does not work the same way, if you just get the same effect as Ironman gives you through strength of will and determination.

Beh, rhetorical questions. Am I the only one who hates them?

 

Although, you do bring up a fair point, which I can understand, but I don't necessarily agree with. How is it different? The only difference I see is that in one case, you're choosing to do it yourself; in the other case, the game is hand-holding you.

[wanderon]

I agree that playing an ironman mode brings an entirely different feel than just saying to yourself - OK if I die then it's game over becuase with the former the final results are automaticly enforced upon you and with the later you know you can always change your mind.

 

In ironman you KNOW as you enter every battle or dangerous area or important conversation that you have but a single chance to accomplish this - in the self-enforced alternate you know exactly the opposite - you know that in the end it's up to you whether you choose to end the game if things go badly or reload and move on - just this once...

 

In ironman the feeling of apprehension builds higher and higher with every hour the game moves on knowing that around the next corner some random encounter could end the game you have now invested so much time in and played so well while in self-enforced nothing changes - in fact it becomes easier and easier to rationalize why you might reload if the worst happens - just this once - well maybe twice - ok three strikes and I'm out seriously I mean it...

[jethro]

While I don't need an iron mode I can somewhat undertstand the need for one. The reason being that you really can't predict your future self or your reactions to circumstances perfectly. Nobody can say of himself "Every decision I did in later years I could have predicted when I was 20 years old".

 

A self inflicted iron man needs exactly that, a 100% prediction what you will do a few weeks from now under very different circumstances and emotional states. Because you make a contract with yourself. Not a difficult contract, there is no downside yet. But when finally your party gets killed contrary to all the care you took then you are a different you and the situation changed and now there is a big downside. You have the power to renegotiate that contract (with yourself) and the only penalty is a loss of trust in your ability to play a self-inflicted iron-man, nothing else.

 

Even someone who expects to hold on to that contract still knows: There will be a backdoor and "every man has his price".

Edited November 12, 2012 by jethro

[TrashMan]

I want to have ironman mode in this game because it will help me to avoid reloading games when I should be paying the price for my decisions.

 

What's this "should"? According to whom? For what purpose?

 

If you actually LIKE to play the game by letting the chips fall where they may, then you don't have to RESIST doing so. So what you're asking for is the ability to select a mode that FORCES you to play in a way that, by your own admission, you DON'T enjoy?

 

Fine, whatever. It never ceases to amaze me how people invent reasons for themselves to feel guilt about things and then expect somebody else to come along and fix it.

 

No. That would be wrong.

 

It's not a matter of enjoment (because that implies the player doesn't enjoy playing in Ironman mode, which is provenly false). It's a matter of feling of loss and the hard-wired impulse we have to get the most of everything.

It's the reason we have things like greed and we hoard stuff and the reason we gamble to being with.

 

Now most poeple don't have enough control to always fight off that impulse. Heck, I don't think any human has. It happens plenty of times that one reloads and regrests doing it later.

 

 

But maybe you are the paragon of perfection and you do not face such problems as us mere mortals.

 

 

And honeslty, being so condescending and patronizing towards people who want such a game mode is even worse then the worst of e-peen waving competitions.

Edited November 12, 2012 by TrashMan

[HangedMan]

While I don't need an iron mode I can somewhat undertstand the need for one. The reason being that you really can't predict your future self or your reactions to circumstances perfectly. Nobody can say of himself "Every decision I did in later years I could have predicted when I was 20 years old".

 

A self inflicted iron man needs exactly that, a 100% prediction what you will do a few weeks from now under very different circumstances and emotional states. Because you make a contract with yourself. Not a difficult contract, there is no downside yet. But when finally your party gets killed contrary to all the care you took then you are a different you and the situation changed and now there is a big downside. You have the power to renegotiate that contract (with yourself) and the only penalty is a loss of trust in your ability to play a self-inflicted iron-man, nothing else.

 

Even someone who expects to hold on to that contract still knows: There will be a backdoor and "every man has his price".

 

I disagree. Mind you, I am in favor of the Trial Of Iron mode, which Obsidian has come flat out and said will be included, and is Ironman Mode in all but name.

 

You don't need a hundred percent prediction to do self-inflicted Iron-man mode. You just need to have enough willpower that when temptation comes knocking at your door, you say "Go away, I hate you!" instead of "Oh, come right on in, chief! What did you bring with you this time?"

 

I've done self-inflicted Ironman Modes, and adhered strictly to the ruling. The one time I deviated was with a Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl playthrough, in which case, I would use the level auto-saves to reload, in the event that I had a CTD from a bug. And I managed to do one run through (on Stalker difficulty) all the way to the true ending.

 

After four games wherein I completely deleted the saves, and started over again. Mind you, I know, by and far, not everybody has the wherewithal to tell temptation to sod off; more people can't than can. I'm just saying, their are people out there, because I can't possibly be the only one; that's statistically impossible.

 

And you know what, I had a great sense of accomplishment when I finally did beat those games. Not just the rush of victory under those conditions, but also because of the rush I got from knowing I was able to make myself adhere to those rules, instead of having the game hold my hand. For me, at least, Trial of Iron would take some of the wind out of my sails.

[Gfted1]

Romances should only be available in Ironman mode. Along with save scumming, rest scumming and healing scumming I need there to be an artificial mechanic specifically designed to prevent me from doing these things or it will invariably result is some other persons single player game being ruined. Damn me.

[ncguthwulf]

I want to have ironman mode in this game because it will help me to avoid reloading games when I should be paying the price for my decisions.

 

What's this "should"? According to whom? For what purpose?

 

If you actually LIKE to play the game by letting the chips fall where they may, then you don't have to RESIST doing so. So what you're asking for is the ability to select a mode that FORCES you to play in a way that, by your own admission, you DON'T enjoy?

 

Fine, whatever. It never ceases to amaze me how people invent reasons for themselves to feel guilt about things and then expect somebody else to come along and fix it.

 

You should probably explain this wonderful insight to people who would LIKE to quit smoking but seem to be unable to RESIST doing so.

 

And being a bit of a masochist, what I actually LIKE is having a game designer FORCE me to play the game in way that makes it appear that I DON'T enjoy it, but I do. I really REALLY do.

[Auxilius]

I just finished XCOM, and yeah, it is much more satisfying to play in Ironman. It feels like every choice matters and you're truly living the story, instead of playing it.

Of course, XCOM isn't a text-heavy game. But I know I won't able to NOT tick the box where Ironman will appear. Besides, it's a perfect opportunity to go for that Pacifist Run I want to do.

[Slaunyeh]

Stop using the phrase "save scumming" to describe normal saves for christ sake. Save scumming is a term applicable to roquelike games where you only have 1 save made when quitting and which is deleted after character dies. Save scumming is when you copy such save file and keep it in different folder. In any other games when you save and load you save and load. Stop using phrases you don't understand!

 

Oh is that what it is. It felt like a much too specific term to just mean "save whenever you want like just about every PC game ever", but in 'that other thread' no one seemed to know where it came from. So, thanks for that.

[Karkarov]

Yeah well, if you want to deal with half your pick pocket attempts failing, a trap disarm check failing and killing someone, or failing a simple speech check you should have made easily due to RNG, or just going to the wrong place at the wrong time and getting steamrolled by enemies you can't handle you go right ahead. I am just going to reload my save personally and I won't feel bad about it at all. This isn't a table top game, it doesn't need to be played like it is.

 

You should probably explain this wonderful insight to people who would LIKE to quit smoking but seem to be unable to RESIST doing so.

Did you just compare nicotene addiction to be an being unable to force yourself to accept consequences in a video game? If not reloading a save in a video game makes you feel physical reactions akin to being a smoker who quits cold turkey you need to get yourself put in a hospital. No, really. If it doesn't then you need to grow up and stop making comparisons between two things that are so different they aren't even in the same universe.

[ncguthwulf]

Yeah well, if you want to deal with half your pick pocket attempts failing, a trap disarm check failing and killing someone, or failing a simple speech check you should have made easily due to RNG, or just going to the wrong place at the wrong time and getting steamrolled by enemies you can't handle you go right ahead. I am just going to reload my save personally and I won't feel bad about it at all. This isn't a table top game, it doesn't need to be played like it is.

 

You should probably explain this wonderful insight to people who would LIKE to quit smoking but seem to be unable to RESIST doing so.

Did you just compare nicotene addiction to be an being unable to force yourself to accept consequences in a video game? If not reloading a save in a video game makes you feel physical reactions akin to being a smoker who quits cold turkey you need to get yourself put in a hospital. No, really. If it doesn't then you need to grow up and stop making comparisons between two things that are so different they aren't even in the same universe.

 

I just cant bring myself to face my terrible, terrible, video game addiction. I was able to shake the heroine habit after a few days but not reloading video games after choosing the wrong dialogue option is so much harder. I mean, the consequences are so minuscule that I can't bring myself not to do it. With the heroine, when I would disappear onto the street for months at a time, my family would flip out and cry. I figured I should probably stop. But with the video games no one suffers. So I just cant seem to stop myself. That's why I need the game developers to do it for me.

Edited November 13, 2012 by ncguthwulf

[HangedMan]

Yeah well, if you want to deal with half your pick pocket attempts failing, a trap disarm check failing and killing someone, or failing a simple speech check you should have made easily due to RNG, or just going to the wrong place at the wrong time and getting steamrolled by enemies you can't handle you go right ahead. I am just going to reload my save personally and I won't feel bad about it at all. This isn't a table top game, it doesn't need to be played like it is.

 

You should probably explain this wonderful insight to people who would LIKE to quit smoking but seem to be unable to RESIST doing so.

Did you just compare nicotene addiction to be an being unable to force yourself to accept consequences in a video game? If not reloading a save in a video game makes you feel physical reactions akin to being a smoker who quits cold turkey you need to get yourself put in a hospital. No, really. If it doesn't then you need to grow up and stop making comparisons between two things that are so different they aren't even in the same universe.

 

I just cant bring myself to face my terrible, terrible, video game addiction. I was able to shake the heroine habit after a few days but not reloading video games after choosing the wrong dialogue option is so much harder. I mean, the consequences are so minuscule that I can't bring myself not to do it. With the heroine, when I would disappear onto the street for months at a time, my family would flip out and cry. I figured I should probably stop. But with the video games no one suffers. So I just cant seem to stop myself. That's why I need the game developers to do it for me.

It sounds like you need my patented Videogame Aversion Therapy Clinic! Using the latest and greatest in Aversion Therapy techniques, we will have you unable to even approach a game, let alone play one, in as little as three weeks! Side effects may include PTSD, drowsiness, nausea, severe and potentially lethal injuries, and Empty Pocket Syndrome.

[JFSOCC]

I could be wrong but I do believe what you're describing is exactly what one of the modes being placed in the game is.

 

"Trial of Iron is like Temple of Elemental Evil's Ironman Mode. When starting a Trial of Iron game, player has one save game that persists for the entire campaign... or until player characters die. And if they die, the save game is deleted."

I'd just copy the save and place it in a different folder for retrieval.

[Gfted1]

I could be wrong but I do believe what you're describing is exactly what one of the modes being placed in the game is.

 

"Trial of Iron is like Temple of Elemental Evil's Ironman Mode. When starting a Trial of Iron game, player has one save game that persists for the entire campaign... or until player characters die. And if they die, the save game is deleted."

I'd just copy the save and place it in a different folder for retrieval.

 

You dirty dirty save scummer. Dont you realize that how you choose to play your single player game is affecting everyone else? They are specifically designing the game mechanics to thwart such things as saving when you want, resting when you want and healing when you want. All because people like you dare to play the game like you want. For shame.

 

[ncguthwulf]

JFSOCC - I am not sure why you would do that when they have a non iron man mode? But even if there is some reason for the extra work, I don't want the game designers to waste time trying to counter that "cheat".

 

Even if there is a achievement or other thing you get for beating it on Ironman.

 

Then again, they could make it so the saved games go on a cloud and you can't manipulate them (as easily). But then in order to play ironman you would need to be online. I minor issue nowadays but an issue.

[ncguthwulf]

 

You dirty dirty save scummer. Dont you realize that how you choose to play your single player game is affecting everyone else? They are specifically designing the game mechanics to thwart such things as saving when you want, resting when you want and healing when you want. All because people like you dare to play the game like you want. For shame.

 

 

What is really funny about this is that it actually seriously affects the community. Go and look at the XCom forums. There is a massive amount of poison being flung between people who claim to have beaten "Impossible Ironman" with zero countries/soldiers lost. People are calling for videos, flaming each other and so on. All because there is a mode of the game that is harder and people want to brag about their achievement.

 

How this game is designed should take the community in mind. If you foster a good community you will get support, modders, fanboys that travel the internetverse singing the praise of the game. Very valuable.

 

If however, the game modes are poorly designed and poorly implemented people will react poorly.

 

If the Xcom designers had known how serious people were going to take clearing Impossible Ironman they could have created a system to prevent save scumming and avoided a lot of anguish.

[JFSOCC]

Ok I apologize, it was a mild troll. I think my stance on save scumming was clear before: I wish to encourage good behaviour without forbidding or punishing behaviour like exploiting and save scumming. I think it is impossible to prevent save scumming (hence my example) and other ways to exploit it. But an engaging game would not entice you to save scum. (that said, it's hard to get that precisely right.)

[TrashMan]

Meh, if I made a game I'd have ONLY ironman mode.

 

The game is supposed to invoke a specific experience and feeling after all.

[-Zin-]

I have seen many arguments about ironman mode and save scumming, etc.

 

I want to have ironman mode in this game because it will help me to avoid reloading games when I should be paying the price for my decisions. Too often, if an auto save at the beginning of the level is available I will reload it because I really messed up and dont want the character to die or face the music.

 

I dont think ironman mode and clever programming should be dedicated to countering save scumming. If people want to get some sort of ironman accomplishment by End Process save scumming / save game back up system, whatever. No big deal.

 

I just want two options:

 

1) standard auto save system that allows me to reload, perhaps for my first play through while getting to know the game.

 

2) ironman mode for when I am ready to really give it a go with no easy way to reload a game. This gives me a real nervous, edge of my seat feeling when making big choices in the game because I know they are final, at least for that character's story.

 

I don't think anyone said there shouldn't be an Iron Man mode. I'm not gonna use it, but that doesn't mean others can't enjoy it.

 

If someone said: "I don't like this optional mode therefore, none shall use it! Make it not available. Nyargh" then that person is off his/her trolley.

[HangedMan]

Meh, if I made a game I'd have ONLY ironman mode.

 

The game is supposed to invoke a specific experience and feeling after all.

And you know enough about this game and its creation that you can certifiably say non Ironman Mode will ruin the experience? Maybe the specific experience and feeling they're going for is one accomplished with a save-anywhere mechanism.