Attributes - Fixed or Increasing?

[PsychoBlonde]

 

For example, the relationship between Constitution and Strength. Is it feasible to be 18 STR / 3 CON? Really. If you are going to have point buy should there not be a mechanism to ensure that symbiotic characteristics are realistic? So if you want a high strength fighter he has to be fit enough (i.e. sliding scale of constitution) to support that? And vice versa.

 

This is an interesting idea, and could be a way to limit a general points system--in order to raise some things past a certain point, you have to put a certain number of points in something else.

 

That being said, I don't think cha buy should be glued to either wis or int. Why not? Ever met a really adorable kid? Did they act like they had ANY wis or int whatsoever? You don't have to be wise or intelligent to be charismatic. What they should have is NPC's whose reactions adjust based on your wis/int after the initial charisma modifier. Cuteness will only get you so far.

[Sylvius the Mad]

 

It's actually really cool, fastest d20 combat EVAR. Makes up for the fact that it can take upwards of 2 hours to make a single character.

2 hours is nothing. You clearly never played Mythus.

 

I had a level 1 wizard with a 9 page character sheet.

[Tamerlane]

What do we think about the actual statistic descriptors? Should they be symbiotic?

 

For example, the relationship between Constitution and Strength. Is it feasible to be 18 STR / 3 CON? Really. If you are going to have point buy should there not be a mechanism to ensure that symbiotic characteristics are realistic? So if you want a high strength fighter he has to be fit enough (i.e. sliding scale of constitution) to support that? And vice versa.

 

So if you want 16 STR you need, say (plucks figure from air) at least 10 CON.

 

While we're at it, how can a character with 3 INT have 18 CHA? If we leave aside the physical perfection of the archetypical dumb blonde, CHA is meant to be about personality and persuasion. How can someone with 3 INT, about as smart as a herd animal, benefit from 18 CHA? It's nuts. So, to make sense of it you have to invest across symbiotic stats to build high-performing characters.

 

Ditto the relationship between WIS and INT (and so on).

 

Lastly, four statistics that are meaningful versus six for the sake of it?

 

STR (brigaded STR and CON)

DEX (as is)

INT (brigaded INT & WIS)

PERS (Personality, brigaded WIS & CHA)

Brings to mind an Oblivion mod I once used.

 

In vanilla Oblivion, all skills are tied to a stat: alchemy - intelligence, blocking - endurance, etc. Increase the skill, increase the stat (kinda; Oblivion's levelling system was ****ing terrible, so it was a bit more complicated than that). The mod that I used connected the skills in a wheel. Do enough endurance-related stuff and you'll get a small increase in strength and willpower. Do enough willpower-related stuff and you'll get a small boost in endurance and intelligence.

 

The game still had a lot of problems, but it was a neat mod.

[Water Rabbit]

That being said, I don't think cha buy should be glued to either wis or int. Why not? Ever met a really adorable kid? Did they act like they had ANY wis or int whatsoever? You don't have to be wise or intelligent to be charismatic. What they should have is NPC's whose reactions adjust based on your wis/int after the initial charisma modifier. Cuteness will only get you so far.

 

Cute and adorable has nothing to do with charisma. A charismatic person has the ability to get others to follow. Think Thulsa Doom. From a D&D perspective there is a symmetry between the physical and mental stats:

 

STR = INT

CON = WIS

DEX = CHA

[Geldridge]

...surely it doesn't matter whether the Fixed or Bought system is used if I have access to ctrl+8??

[Delterius]

That being said, I don't think cha buy should be glued to either wis or int. Why not? Ever met a really adorable kid? Did they act like they had ANY wis or int whatsoever? You don't have to be wise or intelligent to be charismatic. What they should have is NPC's whose reactions adjust based on your wis/int after the initial charisma modifier. Cuteness will only get you so far.

 

Cute and adorable has nothing to do with charisma. A charismatic person has the ability to get others to follow. Think Thulsa Doom. From a D&D perspective there is a symmetry between the physical and mental stats:

 

STR = INT

CON = WIS

DEX = CHA

 

Don't D&D group physical beauty and actual charisma in the CHA stat?

[Tsuga C]

Don't D&D group physical beauty and actual charisma in the CHA stat?

 

Charisma is considered a composite of attractiveness, presence, and persuasiveness, yes.

[danielkx]

I actually like rolling for stats a lot, but I think it should be optional. Rising or fixed I am not so sure about.

The problem is that there are essentially two possibilities: you can roll higher stats than you can buy in a reasonable amount of time, or you can't.

You can also roll lower stats. Also, point-buy systems tend to discourage exceptionally low values in any stat (though I doubt Obsidian would do that).

 

I like fixed or mostly fixed stats. I'd also support a GURPS-like approach where you can buy stat increases with skill points, so instead of learning a new skill you can make yourself stronger or give yourself more hit points.

 

In fact, I'd be interested to see a game where hit points don't increase unless you buy them at level-up.

 

I may be remembering wrong but i think drakensang's system was similar to this. You could increase your attributes but not by much, however to gain hp you would have to buy the hit points... and they were not cheap. By the end of the game I had less than 100 hit points.

[PsychoBlonde]

Don't D&D group physical beauty and actual charisma in the CHA stat?

 

Charisma is considered a composite of attractiveness, presence, and persuasiveness, yes.

 

Attractiveness and presence, sort of. Persuasiveness is ruled by the diplomacy skill and an entire ream of situational modifiers. Charisma adds to it, yes, but does not fully encompass it, much like how strength increases your ability to swim but strength isn't your "swimmingness" ability. A baby can be extremely charismatic--it cries, and people jump to feed it, change it, give it a bath, play with it, burp it, etc. Children are excellent at forcefully impinging themselves on your consciousness. Unobtrusiveness is an acquired characteristic.

 

Charisma is purposefully undefined in a lot of particulars because it doesn't matter whether you are suave, magnetic, adorable, or even repellent. The fact is that people are much more aware of your presence.

[Mikaw]

A very slow increase would be my choice. Like in d&d 3.5, +1 every four level is quite good I think

 

At least it was good for this system, but I'd like to see something similar in PE.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Mikaw

[Cultist]

Slow increase will be reasonable if attributes have influence. In AD&D and GURPS you can see the difference between 9 and 10. But when you end up with hundreds of points and stats like 60 or so, it is hard to see the progression.

[Alexjh]

Mostly fixed but with some very limited increasing like in D&D 3.x.

 

If we had a six attribute system like in D&D, realistically there should be at least 2 stats for any character which can be considered worthwhile investments, and really, most should be of value to anyone.

 

Strength should be of value to anyone fighting in melee.

Dexterity should be of value to anyone with limited armour and anyone fighting at range.

Constitution should be of value to anyone.

Intelligence should be of value to arcane based classes and anyone who wants lots of skills.

Wisdom is possibly the most limited one, useful for divine spellcasters or those with a poor will save.

Charisma should be of use to people like paladins, clerics and chanters who work by enhancing those around them, plus anyone using diplomacy.

 

The trick will be giving players a good reason to pick attributes outside the "core" class choice. Some classes are historically better at getting people to spread (bard (INT, DEX, CHA), Monk (WIS, DEX, STR) and Paladin (STR, WIS, CHA). The trick would be trying to get reasons to have that spread in other classes.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Alexjh

[Karkarov]

Mostly fixed. This is one that actually should have been a poll ! There should be room for your stats to enhance over the course of the game though. If not through the actual leveling process (which feels weird and arbitrary) do it through something more... seemless. Like through out the game is a series of textbooks on physics or advanced mathematics or something similar and every say 5 of them your character reads you gain 1 point of "intelligence". You could also get buffs from certain skill checks like say passing a "lore" check, or solving a complex puzzle in game.

 

Similar things could be in game for other stats but even more ... sly. For example your "dexterity" (again with the D&D terms for ease of use) you simply gain an undisclosed amount of bonus every time you pick a lock, disarm a trap, pick a pocket, or craft a set of arrows, or some other task that is focused on manual dexterity. You could do the same for strength but make it forcing locks, attacking in melee (very slow gains), blacksmithing (again assuming crafting is in), passing strength check related challenges like arm wrestling in a tavern or clearing wreckage from a cave in.

 

That way your characters are always improving naturally over the course of the game based on what they actually do. The only tricky ones would be Wisdom and Constitution.

 

Charisma is one stat best left out of the game. Physical appearance should be based on player choice not a stats, how you speak or act should again be player choice, and the skills checks from it could easily be co opted to work off Wisdom, Intelligence, sometimes even Strength, a combination of the three, or a straight up skill check.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Karkarov

[TrashMan]

I'm for the D&D approach of 1 attribut point every 4-5 levels.

Just enough to give you an extra edge and let you steer your character. Not enough to change him radicly.

 

 

Regarding inital creation - don't mind either way. Having a fixed pool of poitns to distribute does seem the most fair.

[TrashMan]

Mostly fixed but with some very limited increasing like in D&D 3.x.

 

If we had a six attribute system like in D&D, realistically there should be at least 2 stats for any character which can be considered worthwhile investments, and really, most should be of value to anyone.

 

Strength should be of value to anyone fighting in melee.

Dexterity should be of value to anyone with limited armour and anyone fighting at range.

Constitution should be of value to anyone.

Intelligence should be of value to arcane based classes and anyone who wants lots of skills.

Wisdom is possibly the most limited one, useful for divine spellcasters or those with a poor will save.

Charisma should be of use to people like paladins, clerics and chanters who work by enhancing those around them, plus anyone using diplomacy.

 

The trick will be giving players a good reason to pick attributes outside the "core" class choice. Some classes are historically better at getting people to spread (bard (INT, DEX, CHA), Monk (WIS, DEX, STR) and Paladin (STR, WIS, CHA). The trick would be trying to get reasons to have that spread in other classes.

 

 

Everything should be of use to everyone. Problem solved.

 

DEX should be just as important as STR for fighters. (unless oyu go with the heaviest of weapons and armor)

STR shoudl also be important for archers (you need a lot of strength for some of he bows - at least to use them to full effect)

 

etc...

[mokona]

Cute and adorable has nothing to do with charisma. A charismatic person has the ability to get others to follow. Think Thulsa Doom. From a D&D perspective there is a symmetry between the physical and mental stats:

 

STR = INT

CON = WIS

DEX = CHA

Dungeons & Dragons aligns the physical stats with parallel mental stats. This is most explicit when D&D talks about astral projection. The mapping above doesn't match the official rules. The correct groups are:

 

STR = CHA

CON = WIS

DEX = INT

 

Charisma is your force of personality and how much you can dominate or will other people to do what you want. Charismatic characters are often portrayed as having stronger souls or Charisma is used as the key attribute for spellcasters that use their personal power instead of book learning or drawing from an outside source. These reasons are why Charisma is your mental Strength.

 

Intelligence is your mental agility. How quickly can you think and how flexible is your deductive reasoning. Intelligence is your mental Dexterity.

[HansKrSG]

<snip> A baby can be extremely charismatic--it cries, and people jump to feed it, change it, give it a bath, play with it, burp it, etc. Children are excellent at forcefully impinging themselves on your consciousness. <snip>

 

That is called Stocholm syndrome.

[Ralewyn]

I absolutely love--and I mean love the way Fallout and Planescape: Torment handle attributes. Where the attribute scores are highly significant and core to who your character is, what your character does and how your character solves problems. Where you can make some kind of genetic mutant right from the get-go that's min/maxed to hell and back and still manages to keep the game interesting all the same while making you feel like the choices you made at chargen really and truly mattered every step of the way. I love the progression where gains are slow and plodding if any but each point counts significantly and you can use it to balance your character out or just make them some kind of demihuman monster. I love these attributes having an impact on dialogue choices and quest lines and how people react to you and everything. If a system like this makes a return in Project Eternity oh the joys it would bring me.

[Larek]

What do you guys think about a system similar to Dark Souls? Every class has their specific "main" attribute (Sorcerer Int, Cleric Faith, Knight End, Warrior Str., etc). In order to get higher stats you have to fight enemies to gain souls. The amount of souls needed to level up, and increase one stat, will increase with every level. Most of the time, you just level up to obtain certain weapon requirements. Nothing really new, but once you reach 40ish points in a stat, there is a diminishing return. In addtion to that, upgrades on weapons or armor are more important, for the actual damage output and resistance. So you can beat the entire game with Level 1, if you are good enough with the controls and attack patterns. But even with Level 100 you are not godlike, and you can die to pretty much any creature, if you are careless.

Well, the combat system is quiet different but it is just an idea. For more information: http://darksoulswiki...paces.com/Stats , http://darksoulswiki...ces.com/Classes

For PE there could be some specific trainers in the world and you have to pay them a large amount of money or fulfill a quest to gain a point. Furthermore, in the beginning of the game you can spend some points, equal to Planescape:Torment.

What they shouldn't do, at least for my opinion, is rolling dices at the start. That is just time consuming.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Larek

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Charisma is one stat best left out of the game. Physical appearance should be based on player choice not a stats, how you speak or act should again be player choice, and the skills checks from it could easily be co opted to work off Wisdom, Intelligence, sometimes even Strength, a combination of the three, or a straight up skill check.

 

I agree, especially when you consider that Wisdom(in D&D terms) really should be split in to Willpower and Perception.

 

As for the thread topic, I want attributes to increase slowly. I think that the 1 point every 4 levels in 3.XD&D/Pathfinder is probably a good rate. I hate it when attributes explode into 100+ totals.

[anubite]

I prefer systems where attributes remain as fixed as possible. You can increase your attributes, but it's difficult, requiring some very specific items/gear/passives/bonuses. Attributes should be powerful, rigid, but not immutable.

 

I'll leave Obsidian to decide what's best... but here's my own world

 

STR - Increases damage with melee weapons by a lot, ranged weapons by half as much. Increases the "maximum burden" of your character (so if you have high str, you can use plate armor no problem with no penalty). Increases the chance of stuns with physical damage.

AGI - Increases attack and cast speed.

DEX - Increases chance to hit with weapons and chance to evade vs weapons.

CON - Increases maximum life and mana/stamina/energy regeneration (where stamina/energy are the resource for skills that don't use mana, if there is such a thing).

INT - Increases spell damage. Increases chance to critically strike with weapon attacks (and possibly spells).

WIS - Increases max mana and gives slight magic penetration (so you can pierce magical resistances on gear)

 

Notably I think there should be many passives/feats which allow you to scale your character in interesting ways. Here are some things I have in mind that may seem familiar...

 

Finesse - Dexterity increases melee weapon damage as if it were strength if it is higher

Nimble - Dexterity increases your spell damage as if it were intelligence if it is higher (being dextrous should make you good with complex spells, I think )

Blood Magic - Use life instead of mana for spells.

Barbarian Magic - Strength increases your melee damage and spell damage but does not increase damage you deal with ranged weapons or increase your maximum burden.

Sage - Your wisdom increases your stun chance for physical damage and attack speed.

 

Basically, feats/passives for altering how you can build your characters' attributes -- would be really nice. Also nice too, is having at least two effects per attribute, one for spell casters, one for non-spell casters. This has the bonus effect of encouraging hybridization (if your mage is very intelligent, he can still hit reasonably hard with a dagger, since he'll get criticals often) as well as encouraging the use of diversified builds, breaking down min/max syndrome (you can have a warrior that focuses on intelligence and strength or dexterity and strength or agility and strength or even wisdom and strength).

Edited November 28, 2012 by anubite

[Cultist]

Bottom one:

[mcmanusaur]

Given that this thread has already been necro-ed, I'll go ahead and state my opinions. I prefer fixed attributes personally, though I could see allowing the players to increase them at one or maybe two key plot turning points if the narrative justifies it. But I dislike the typical DnD system of increasing one attribute every x levels, and the idea that one can increase them far beyond their original value.

 

Perhaps a bigger pet peeve of mine, however, is the existence of "conversions" between different kinds of increasing statistics; I dislike the idea that you can dump points into an attribute (ex. Intelligence) to gain more skill points. Similarly I don't really like the notion of feats that allow you to level up attributes (as seen in Fallout); generally I think primary statistics/traits like attributes, skills, and feats should be allocated entirely separate from each other, even if they can influence the same secondary stats, which is to say it's fine with me if you can "convert" primary statistics into things like health, stamina, or mana. Attributes, skills, and feats should each measure completely independent things, and each class should require them about equally (which means making feats less combat-focused, and more skills for non-rogues).

[Sacred_Path]

JES avoids dump stats

 

 

[Iron_JG]

Has it been clarified whether the game's built-in respec options will allow any attribute redistribution (particularly for points gained after character creation)? As one poster noted earlier, sometimes planning out stats is really important. In 3/3.5 edition DnD, if you didn't aim for one or two really high stats from the get-go, certain high-level feats could remain out of reach -- particularly for epic feats that required 25 in a stat -- meaning it could be 20 levels or more before you qualified for them. I hope PE is a little more cautious with attribute requirements than that.

 

I'm on board with the consensus that stats should not be inflated or grow quickly, so that each increase is rare and valuable. In BG2, I remember always being really geeked to get permanent bonuses -- and milked the machine of Lum the Mad in Watcher's Keep for all it was worth, lol...