Respec?

[RaketenRichard]

In most rpg's characters controlled be the player can be customized. For me the finality of choices concerning character customization induces some kind of identity, which contributes a lot to what I humbly call "feeling". Yet it seems to sometimes restrain the gameplay.

 

In Baldur's Gate 2 we had both. Talents, skills, race etc. were final, but gear was completely interchangeable.

 

Do you think it should stay like this in PE? Which parts of character customization should be final?

Edited October 30, 2012 by RaketenRichard

[quechn1tlan]

No. Just no. You screw up - you start the game anew.

[Farbautisonn]

No. Just no. You screw up - you start the game anew.

 

Respeccing is an abomination for RPG's. You do not "respec" IRL either. You add to what you allready have, you dont magically "forget" everything you knew before. Please. No WoW features, kthnks la~.

[Frisk]

Is this really an issue?

 

During the character creation process you will presumably select the gender and race. Barring major magical effects, those will be fixed. You will also select class - now, the devs have not said whether something similar to dual- or multiclassing in D&D, but I am going to assume not - it just adds too much complexity.

 

Then you have various stats - presumably you will have some control over their initial values, and possibly some control over how they might change throughout the game.

 

Finally there are various skills and abilities, some of which might depend on your race or class, but other might be available to all. Presumably you will have full control over how they develop, but once you make a choice, you will have to live with it - it is silly to be able to swap out skills, when you can just go back and start a new game with a different character. This is not WoW.

[BetrayTheWorld]

No do-overs. Of course EQ can be changed, unless it's cursed and sticks to your hands. But even that might be a temporary problem if you can find someone to lift the curse.

 

Basically, if it is part of the identity of your character, you shouldn't be able to change it later. If it's an item, you should be able to toss it aside like any other.

 

P.S. Please, please introduce cursed items. Down with the leet loot free-for-all!

[Sacred_Path]

I second that respeccing is unrealistic and doesn't necessarily add much fun. Especially in the case of perks and traits, your collection of both almost tells a story about your character and his journey.

[Shevek]

No respec. Just RTFM and plan it out.

[Rubicon]

You should definitely be able to change your spec if you aren't happy with the one you have chosen. Maybe through a quest chain or something. But there is no reason to force a new person to just deal with it, because that will turn people away from the game. I am not sure why all these "hardcore" gamers want to take away all the perks for the rest of us. I am aware that some of you want to hardest game imaginable, but that's why there are iron man modes. If you want to keep the same spec for bragging rights or whatever, far be it from me to stop you, but don't try to limit tools in the game for others. It makes you look like an elitist ass.

[Tale]

I wish the system was flexible enough that respecialization was simply never needed. That's my ideal. Every attribute point, every skill selected, has viable utility towards progression. It's a bit of a pipedream, I understand that. But I still ask that it be aimed for as far as is reasonable.

 

Beyond that, I would prefer that a few screwups in the character build should be able to be made up with party composition, assuming you're not actively trying to sabotage the entire group's build. And assuming you're playing on normal.

[evdk]

No respec. Howgh.

[BetrayTheWorld]

No respec. Howgh.

 

I'm sorry sir, but I'm going to have to see your invitation.

[quechn1tlan]

You should definitely be able to change your spec if you aren't happy with the one you have chosen. Maybe through a quest chain or something. But there is no reason to force a new person to just deal with it, because that will turn people away from the game. I am not sure why all these "hardcore" gamers want to take away all the perks for the rest of us. I am aware that some of you want to hardest game imaginable, but that's why there are iron man modes. If you want to keep the same spec for bragging rights or whatever, far be it from me to stop you, but don't try to limit tools in the game for others. It makes you look like an elitist ass.

 

"Hardcore" term once more. For a game to be interesting it has to be challenging. I don't mean that it has to kill you at every step or have monsters that have ten times your strength. No, I'm talking about honest gameplay mechanics that challenge you. Just like core D&D rules, for example. It's not hard, it's not hardcore. But it makes you think and overcome obstacles. This makes for a good gaming experience and fond memories long after.

 

This is what eludes people who play games while not liking them. And yes - nowadays it's the majority. People playing games and not enjoying them. For them it is necesary to have pretty pictures on the screen and to be able to finish the game with eyes closed just to feel awesome. All this and other fluff is needed to hold people behind their monitors for a couple of hours so that next month they go and buy a DLC or a sequel. These are not the people for whom PE is being made.

 

So, no. Failing won't turn you away from the game. On the contrary - it will make you want to try harder next time and do your best. If it doesn't - you are simply not liking the game and shouldn't have been playing it in the first place.

 

And, yse, Ironman mode IS hardcore - where you presumably should watch your every step and reload every roll a couple of times just to succeed. There are people who enjoy even that. But it has nothing to do with honest core mechanics, like creating a reasonable character and if botching some stats, coping with it and trying to make best of a bad situation.

[Rubicon]

 

"Hardcore" term once more. For a game to be interesting it has to be challenging. I don't mean that it has to kill you at every step or have monsters that have ten times your strength. No, I'm talking about honest gameplay mechanics that challenge you. Just like core D&D rules, for example. It's not hard, it's not hardcore. But it makes you think and overcome obstacles. This makes for a good gaming experience and fond memories long after.

 

This is what eludes people who play games while not liking them. And yes - nowadays it's the majority. People playing games and not enjoying them. For them it is necesary to have pretty pictures on the screen and to be able to finish the game with eyes closed just to feel awesome. All this and other fluff is needed to hold people behind their monitors for a couple of hours so that next month they go and buy a DLC or a sequel. These are not the people for whom PE is being made.

 

So, no. Failing won't turn you away from the game. On the contrary - it will make you want to try harder next time and do your best. If it doesn't - you are simply not liking the game and shouldn't have been playing it in the first place.

 

And, yse, Ironman mode IS hardcore - where you presumably should watch your every step and reload every roll a couple of times just to succeed. There are people who enjoy even that. But it has nothing to do with honest core mechanics, like creating a reasonable character and if botching some stats, coping with it and trying to make best of a bad situation.

 

I don't see anything in this response that suggests that there shouldn't be a way to correct what a player feels as a mistake in placing earned points. If anything, seems like what you are saying is that the game should be challenging, which I agree with. If you don't want a re spec option, don't use it. This isn't like asking for 3d animation, or a new level, or anything that could taker away from the budget. And basically any small perk that could be added with virtually no effort should definitely be added, just because more options are always good, especially in an RPG when its all about personal choice. If you don't want to respec, then don't.

[mokona]

Contrary to claims above, people do respec iRL. If you stop using your skills they get rusty. If you focus on new skills you can learn. Real people are forced to retrain for new careers all the time when they're laid off or their industry goes away. If you are a physically powerful fighter, but you stop working out, your muscles will weaken. A person really could respec their physical skills (hitting with a greatsword) into mental skills (book learning) by sitting around a university getting a PHD.

 

If respec doesn't feel righ to you, then don't use it.

[quechn1tlan]

"Hardcore" term once more. For a game to be interesting it has to be challenging. I don't mean that it has to kill you at every step or have monsters that have ten times your strength. No, I'm talking about honest gameplay mechanics that challenge you. Just like core D&D rules, for example. It's not hard, it's not hardcore. But it makes you think and overcome obstacles. This makes for a good gaming experience and fond memories long after.

 

This is what eludes people who play games while not liking them. And yes - nowadays it's the majority. People playing games and not enjoying them. For them it is necesary to have pretty pictures on the screen and to be able to finish the game with eyes closed just to feel awesome. All this and other fluff is needed to hold people behind their monitors for a couple of hours so that next month they go and buy a DLC or a sequel. These are not the people for whom PE is being made.

 

So, no. Failing won't turn you away from the game. On the contrary - it will make you want to try harder next time and do your best. If it doesn't - you are simply not liking the game and shouldn't have been playing it in the first place.

 

And, yse, Ironman mode IS hardcore - where you presumably should watch your every step and reload every roll a couple of times just to succeed. There are people who enjoy even that. But it has nothing to do with honest core mechanics, like creating a reasonable character and if botching some stats, coping with it and trying to make best of a bad situation.

 

I don't see anything in this response that suggests that there shouldn't be a way to correct what a player feels as a mistake in placing earned points. If anything, seems like what you are saying is that the game should be challenging, which I agree with. If you don't want a re spec option, don't use it. This isn't like asking for 3d animation, or a new level, or anything that could taker away from the budget. And basically any small perk that could be added with virtually no effort should definitely be added, just because more options are always good, especially in an RPG when its all about personal choice. If you don't want to respec, then don't.

 

Exactly. It's an RPG where you roleplay some character. It's not an MMO where your goal is to be better than anybody else. It is a game where decission matters. And taking away consequences of that decision is bad. And respec does just that. It takes away all consequences of your character creation, streamlining the path to victory.

 

Not to mention how the presence of this feature affects gameplay overall. You don't like your companions who come with their predefined strong and weak points? Just change them, disregard what developers want them to be for reasons they know. You are having trouble killing an ogre mage? If no respec is present you have two options: restart the game or find another solution to the problem. Like talking to him or looking for another way around. With respec? Change your skills to a mage-killer build, then change them back to a smooth talker and get double the reward. These are just a few a bit exagerrated examples why respeccing is bad. The feature goes much deeper than "just an additional option to include". So yeah - respec works in a game where you have a straight line and by walking it you can't miss any part of the game. Just follow the script road. In a situation where you can miss half the game by just using one set of skills and not the other - it is a very bad idea.

Edited October 30, 2012 by quechn1tlan

[Cultist]

No. Horrible abuses could be possible with this one. This is not MMORPG or Dragon Age 2

Also, I never heared about people who turn away from the game just because they leveled up wrong. And it doesn't seem like other RPGs have problem with it as well.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Cultist

[rjshae]

...only while seated upon a magical throne that has a small chance to turn you into a charcoal briquette.

[evdk]

No respec. Howgh.

 

I'm sorry sir, but I'm going to have to see your invitation.

Be gone from this place, Priestly.

[Rubicon]

Exactly. It's an RPG where you roleplay some character. It's not an MMO where your goal is to be better than anybody else. It is a game where decission matters. And taking away consequences of that decision is bad. And respec does just that. It takes away all consequences of your character creation, streamlining the path to victory.

 

Not to mention how the presence of this feature affects gameplay overall. You don't like your companions who come with their predefined strong and weak points? Just change them, disregard what developers want them to be for reasons they know. You are having trouble killing an ogre mage? If no respec is present you have two options: restart the game or find another solution to the problem. Like talking to him or looking for another way around. With respec? Change your skills to a mage-killer build, then change them back to a smooth talker and get double the reward. These are just a few a bit exagerrated examples why respeccing is bad. The feature goes much deeper than "just an additional option to include". So yeah - respec works in a game where you have a straight line and by walking it you can't miss any part of the game. Just follow the script road. In a situation where you can miss half the game by just using one set of skills and not the other - it is a very bad idea.

 

I see all your listed reasons as to why you wouldn't want to respec. I still don't see any reasons why the feature shouldn't be available for those that want it. Its like you are asking my gameplay to be limited just so you can have it more your way. You already have a place where you can recruit your whole team from scratch, thus negating your "disregard what developers want them to be for reasons they know" argument. The whole point of the RPG is to make a character you want. If you find out you chose something that didn't lead to where you wanted, you should be able to correct it. And if someone uses it to cheat the game, so what? Its not multiplayer. Its about game enjoyment. If you won't use respeccing, so be it. Thats great. Here's a cookie. The feature shouldn't be removed or not implemented just because you won't use it.

[Tale]

Avoiding respec applies more weight to the choices. Similar to how allowing you to make/unmake/remake plot based decisions would make them all seem less significant.

 

Being able to alter choices makes choices into exploratory trials. There's already a system you can use for trying out character builds in the adventurer's hall.

[quechn1tlan]

Exactly. It's an RPG where you roleplay some character. It's not an MMO where your goal is to be better than anybody else. It is a game where decission matters. And taking away consequences of that decision is bad. And respec does just that. It takes away all consequences of your character creation, streamlining the path to victory.

 

Not to mention how the presence of this feature affects gameplay overall. You don't like your companions who come with their predefined strong and weak points? Just change them, disregard what developers want them to be for reasons they know. You are having trouble killing an ogre mage? If no respec is present you have two options: restart the game or find another solution to the problem. Like talking to him or looking for another way around. With respec? Change your skills to a mage-killer build, then change them back to a smooth talker and get double the reward. These are just a few a bit exagerrated examples why respeccing is bad. The feature goes much deeper than "just an additional option to include". So yeah - respec works in a game where you have a straight line and by walking it you can't miss any part of the game. Just follow the script road. In a situation where you can miss half the game by just using one set of skills and not the other - it is a very bad idea.

 

I see all your listed reasons as to why you wouldn't want to respec. I still don't see any reasons why the feature shouldn't be available for those that want it. Its like you are asking my gameplay to be limited just so you can have it more your way. You already have a place where you can recruit your whole team from scratch, thus negating your "disregard what developers want them to be for reasons they know" argument. The whole point of the RPG is to make a character you want. If you find out you chose something that didn't lead to where you wanted, you should be able to correct it. And if someone uses it to cheat the game, so what? Its not multiplayer. Its about game enjoyment. If you won't use respeccing, so be it. Thats great. Here's a cookie. The feature shouldn't be removed or not implemented just because you won't use it.

 

Because if it is there and it makes your life easier - not using it is like shooting yourself in the leg. Therefore it makes the whole experience more shallow. The game's features should be used to its full extent. The arguement: don't like it - don't use it is retarded and smells just like the eternal "romances" debate. So let's just stop. Beating a dead horse is not the best idea.

[Rubicon]

Avoiding respec applies more weight to the choices. Similar to how allowing you to make/unmake/remake plot based decisions would make them all seem less significant.

 

Being able to alter choices makes choices into exploratory trials. There's already a system you can use for trying out character builds in the adventurer's hall.

 

Avoiding respec does apply more weight, but it takes away more choice. It just seems like respeccing should be a self imposed weight other than one forced on us by people who won't use them for themselves.

[Sacred_Path]

Contrary to claims above, people do respec iRL. If you stop using your skills they get rusty. If you focus on new skills you can learn. Real people are forced to retrain for new careers all the time when they're laid off or their industry goes away. If you are a physically powerful fighter, but you stop working out, your muscles will weaken. A person really could respec their physical skills (hitting with a greatsword) into mental skills (book learning) by sitting around a university getting a PHD.

 

If respec doesn't feel righ to you, then don't use it.

 

IRL, such a change can only occur slowly, not in seconds. And that's just as possible w/o respecs. Simply pick other skills to pump and talents/ perks to raise. It will take time and might be ineffective, ultimately - just like IRL ;-)

[Rubicon]

Because if it is there and it makes your life easier - not using it is like shooting yourself in the leg. Therefore it makes the whole experience more shallow. The game's features should be used to its full extent. The arguement: don't like it - don't use it is retarded and smells just like the eternal "romances" debate. So let's just stop. Beating a dead horse is not the best idea.

 

I think what you are saying is "not using it is like shooting yourself in the leg" to you. "Therefore it makes the whole experience more shallow" to you. "don't use it is retarded" to you. Unlike romances, which take time and effort to consider, script, implement. The game has a speccing mechanism and therefore a respeccing mechanism. Just because the feature will make it less fun, once again, for you, doesn't mean it shouldn't be available. And if you don't want to use it, then don't. I would rather you shoot yourself in the foot then me.

[quechn1tlan]

Because if it is there and it makes your life easier - not using it is like shooting yourself in the leg. Therefore it makes the whole experience more shallow. The game's features should be used to its full extent. The arguement: don't like it - don't use it is retarded and smells just like the eternal "romances" debate. So let's just stop. Beating a dead horse is not the best idea.

 

I think what you are saying is "not using it is like shooting yourself in the leg" to you. "Therefore it makes the whole experience more shallow" to you. "don't use it is retarded" to you. Unlike romances, which take time and effort to consider, script, implement. The game has a speccing mechanism and therefore a respeccing mechanism. Just because the feature will make it less fun, once again, for you, doesn't mean it shouldn't be available. And if you don't want to use it, then don't. I would rather you shoot yourself in the foot then me.

 

You can say "for you" as many times as you'd like. Doesn't change the fact that respeccing is a significant step on the road to Dragon Ageism. If you want another DA - please go wait for it on DA forums. Don't try to bringing bad features into a promising project.

Edited October 30, 2012 by quechn1tlan