Interview with Josh Sawyer on Design and Mechanics

[ValarMorghulis]

I'm happy to see the art direction leans more heavily on IWD series rather than any other IE game. Torment would have been fine too.

[Wombat]

Thanks for the headsup. Hard to complain of the answers in the interview. I believe the room for various theories and interpretations eventually constructs an attractive world, too. If the designers have good research in some classic PnP materials, I think they can get quite many info about things which work well and those don't.

 

I'm really fascinated by the lives of ordinary, less well-known people put in difficult or unusual circumstances.

I think Joan of Arc can be fitted to this description considering her origin but it's a nitpick and I'm happy with the general direction.

[Sykid]

Mad respect for Godspeed You! Black Emperor

[Marceror]

Nice interview. I'm looking forward to seeing more mechanical details that were hinted about in a subsequent update.

 

I'm flattered that my humble information guide on PE was referenced in the interview.

[Gyor]

Excellent interview, one of the best, no repetitive questions and well organized.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think Joan of Arc can be fitted to this description considering her origin but it's a nitpick and I'm happy with the general direction.

The difference between Joan of Arc and Hans Böhm is that almost no one remembers Hans Böhm. Joan of Arc is a "great woman" of history remembered for turning the tide of the Hundred Years War and leading Charles VII to his coronation; Hans Böhm's revolt failed and he was virtually forgotten. "Great" men/women are difficult to study (especially in the case of saints) for elements of their humanity because their legends loom so large.

[Merin]

I think Joan of Arc can be fitted to this description considering her origin but it's a nitpick and I'm happy with the general direction.

The difference between Joan of Arc and Hans Böhm is that almost no one remembers Hans Böhm. Joan of Arc is a "great woman" of history remembered for turning the tide of the Hundred Years War and leading Charles VII to his coronation; Hans Böhm's revolt failed and he was virtually forgotten. "Great" men/women are difficult to study (especially in the case of saints) for elements of their humanity because their legends loom so large.

 

Good point.

 

There's also the shift history took awhile back to stop looking at individuals of influence and instead focusing on "the common man" which lead to whole different ways of writing about history and downplaying individuals while focusing on events and movements and cultures and such.

[Wombat]

I think Joan of Arc can be fitted to this description considering her origin but it's a nitpick and I'm happy with the general direction.

The difference between Joan of Arc and Hans Böhm is that almost no one remembers Hans Böhm. Joan of Arc is a "great woman" of history remembered for turning the tide of the Hundred Years War and leading Charles VII to his coronation; Hans Böhm's revolt failed and he was virtually forgotten. "Great" men/women are difficult to study (especially in the case of saints) for elements of their humanity because their legends loom so large.

It simply occurred to me that, whether remembered or not, both of them followed the same fate. It's just that, in our modern view, how would it be to be considered as a "saint" just because she thought she had a vision to be involved in political conflicts, ending up with being executed as a "witch." How did "her greatness" work to her life? Whether the fame was earned after or during their lives, what did it mean to them? It might be just that Jean worked favorably for some authorities (French upper classes), while Bohem was simply inconvenient for any authority. However, what did it mean to them?

 

Also, a thought came to me about PE setting: If someone, who happens to have a "strong soul," has a "vision" of saints/gods in PE world and believes it's his/her "fate" and at the same time, then, how people around him/her would react to him/her? How would political/religious authorities try to deal with him/her? Is it comical or tragic? I thought it may be interesting as a place where political interests and pure beliefs are interrelated each other.

 

In any case, I'm not arguing against you and, if you try to stick to exploring possible lives in the setting, I'd say, go for it. However, going further, what does being famous and being remembered mean to each individual? No matter how hard we try, there must be always something which always slip from learned eyes and it's possible however we tag these "historical figures."

[septembervirgin]

From the interview with Sawyer:

 

I do know that we want to allow the player to account for a marginal shortfall in skill requirement with resource consumption. E.g. if you need a 75 to pick a lock but you have a 65 Lockpicking skill, you can still open the lock for a cost of 10 lockpicks. This wouldn't apply if the skill is too far from the requirement (e.g. a 45 Lockpicking skill would be too low), but it does allow for a little more flexibility.

 

I think that rules that permit for spending dozens of lockpicks for higher skill is not a concept granting us confidence in your serious and devoted approach to the game; we begin to think the game will be trivial, sufficient enough to joke about in an interview. Please have a bit more gravitas. I might seem like a circus clown to those more articulate and successful, but my forum antics needn't be infectious.

 

If a person purchases a lockpick, even if you don't want to simulate the actual process of lockpicking and the variety of lockpicks that come in handy (multiple lockpocks because each job might require any of dozens of non-expendable lockpicks), you should have them buy one lockpick that is as durable as a dagger. There might be three types of lockpick, one enchanted, one masterwork and of course the typical lockpick. If lockpicks are icicles made out of sacred potions then I understand why they need be sacrificed for an ability bonus. Otherwise, please stop and reconsider.

 

Skill rolls should not be "throw-away ideas" like the roll-under a number plus bonuses. That's one of the older concepts for skills and although not much thought seems to go into skill checks, more thought should go into it. As to what method should be used, I leave that to the greater discretion of Sawyer and his co-workers. It's easy to esteem them, but perhaps it's also easy to worry that we'll be carrying around five bundles of ninety nine icicle lockpicks.

[J.E. Sawyer]

If a person purchases a lockpick, even if you don't want to simulate the actual process of lockpicking and the variety of lockpicks that come in handy (multiple lockpocks because each job might require any of dozens of non-expendable lockpicks), you should have them buy one lockpick that is as durable as a dagger.

Why?

[Shevek]

I actually like that lockpick example. Skill investment is rewarded and every single point is useful rather than having to hit certain plateaus. The design addresses flaws in previous implementations of skill checks in, I think, a pretty elegant way.

 

I just hope they make do not have skills that fail to benefit from investment after a certain point.

[Volourn]

"I personally always felt that the 'magic' in the Lord of the Rings universe was poorly shaped and left me constantly wondering just what the hell wizards actually did."

 

Uh. They did magic. This is the time where 'it's magic' is actually a suitable reply. :D

[Stun]

Huh, when I read that lockpick passage, I interpretted it as just a general example of using gear to offset a shortfall. (which IMO is a self explanatory thing and shouldn't really need a specific example) But since we're discussing it.... Is it safe to assume that another example is: if you need an 85 in stealth to successfully sneak past a pair of guards on the road, and you only have 75 stealth, you could drink a potion of sneaking and succeed? Or if you need 20 strength to lift a door bar, and you only have 18 strength, you could drink a potion of muscle enhancing +2 and succeed?

 

Anyway:

well then, in retrospect, we got zippo from the interview. feel better?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Well, perhaps "zippo" in the way of BREAKING NEWS: REVEAL!!! But an interview with the head honcho game developer can be an informative read without such "hard facts".

 

This interview gives us glimpses of how some of the gameplay mechanics might turn out. For example:

I think combat logs are great for understanding the mechanics in detail. Not everyone uses them, but I definitely think they have value. I also think select all is very handy. Many people like to do a fast marquee select, but a select all button is nice as well. The object highlighter feels almost like a requirement to me. I've never seen the fun in pixel hunting, especially when you're often dealing with something that the characters could likely see very easily. This doesn't preclude the existence of "secret" containers or doors, though, since those can be turned off by default

^what have we got here? We've got a guy who's making Project Eternity, and he sees stuff like Combat logs, full party select, and the Highlight button as useful, if not vital game mechanics. So there's a really good chance that PE will have all three. Personally, this is the kind of information that puts my mind at ease. And IMO it's more valuable to me than if Josh had come online and said: "hey, let me tell you all about NPC #11. [insert biography here]." (or whatever you might have hoped was in this interview).

Edited October 28, 2012 by Stun

[Sensuki]

Actually I remember like ages ago, right at the start of the Kickstarter campaign they were talking about that. I'd have to go through all the news since to find where it was mentioned though.

[Grand_Commander13]

If a person purchases a lockpick, even if you don't want to simulate the actual process of lockpicking and the variety of lockpicks that come in handy (multiple lockpocks because each job might require any of dozens of non-expendable lockpicks), you should have them buy one lockpick that is as durable as a dagger.

Why?

I don't know what the state of lockpicking was like a few hundred years ago, but I know that now there are myriad lockpicks and that picks rarely break.

[Ieo]

I think that rules that permit for spending dozens of lockpicks for higher skill is not a concept granting us confidence in your serious and devoted approach to the game; we begin to think the game will be trivial, sufficient enough to joke about in an interview. Please have a bit more gravitas. I might seem like a circus clown to those more articulate and successful, but my forum antics needn't be infectious.

 

There's nothing like speaking in the royal We and claiming omniscient representation of all backers to completely invalidate your post. (And "gravitas"? wtf are you on?)

 

 

If a person purchases a lockpick, even if you don't want to simulate the actual process of lockpicking and the variety of lockpicks that come in handy (multiple lockpocks because each job might require any of dozens of non-expendable lockpicks), you should have them buy one lockpick that is as durable as a dagger.

Why?

I don't know what the state of lockpicking was like a few hundred years ago, but I know that now there are myriad lockpicks and that picks rarely break.

 

This is a strict mechanics thing. Percentage probabilities can be unfair or plain illogical while being only 10 completely arbitrary skill points below an action is also too unforgiving. It's either a +lockpicks bonus or +thieving skills potion, perhaps... but mechanical elegance would be nice ultimately, without placing too much of a burden on the player.

[Sensuki]

It might not be a probability at all, it might just be a straight check, you need X in the lockpick skill to beat it rather than you need to get 75% or roll 15

[Grand_Commander13]

If it were me, as a player, I'd probably prefer some sort of Guile mechanic where my character managed to beat a lock too strong for him; this would be a depletable resource much like the loss of picks would be, but with more flexibility. After it's spent on a lock the player can refresh Guile however the developer wants them to: with rest, with a trainer's assistance (a money sink), on levelup, or some other way. With lockpicks you're stuck using them as a money sink or crafting picks.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Grand_Commander13

[Gyor]

If a person purchases a lockpick, even if you don't want to simulate the actual process of lockpicking and the variety of lockpicks that come in handy (multiple lockpocks because each job might require any of dozens of non-expendable lockpicks), you should have them buy one lockpick that is as durable as a dagger.

Why?

 

My dad was a mechanic and I've known all kinds of people who use tools for varous jobs, including myself.

 

Do you think a professional thief/locksmith would buy cheap dollarstore grade tools that will break when used when his life could depends on success or do think he'd buy mastercraft tools, something he can consistantly rely up when ever he needs it even if it means paying more?

 

The only time I see workmen using disposalable tools is when thier too broke to afford something proper.

 

An amauter thief may use a bobby pin like in FONV, but a professional will have proper tools for his trade. It'd be like giving the fighter a sword that breaks each time it hit someone.

 

An alternative would be enchanted tools just like you have enchanted weapons and grimoires. So an enchanted +5 lockpicket set that boosts the mechanics skills when lockpicking by 5 to 10 points. It cost more then cheap lock picking tools, but its reliable and reusable.

[Stun]

If a person purchases a lockpick, even if you don't want to simulate the actual process of lockpicking and the variety of lockpicks that come in handy (multiple lockpocks because each job might require any of dozens of non-expendable lockpicks), you should have them buy one lockpick that is as durable as a dagger. There might be three types of lockpick, one enchanted, one masterwork and of course the typical lockpick. If lockpicks are icicles made out of sacred potions then I understand why they need be sacrificed for an ability bonus. Otherwise, please stop and reconsider.

So you'd prefer a skeleton key type thing. One lockpick that never breaks.

 

I disagree. I'd much rather have lockpicks be consumable, since if you give my character a Permanent lockpick-of-10%-assistance, I will cater my build to it, and thus not bother actually *mastering* the lock pick skill, since I won't need to. Whereas if lockpicks are consumable and can run out, then I will need to either get my lockpicking to 100, or else worry about running out of lockpicks when I'm in the middle of a dungeon.... which is as it should be if you're not going to bother being a master at picking locks.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Stun

[nikolokolus]

If a person purchases a lockpick, even if you don't want to simulate the actual process of lockpicking and the variety of lockpicks that come in handy (multiple lockpocks because each job might require any of dozens of non-expendable lockpicks), you should have them buy one lockpick that is as durable as a dagger.

Why?

 

My dad was a mechanic and I've known all kinds of people who use tools for varous jobs, including myself.

 

Do you think a professional thief/locksmith would buy cheap dollarstore grade tools that will break when used when his life could depends on success or do think he'd buy mastercraft tools, something he can consistantly rely up when ever he needs it even if it means paying more?

 

The only time I see workmen using disposalable tools is when thier too broke to afford something proper.

 

An amauter thief may use a bobby pin like in FONV, but a professional will have proper tools for his trade. It'd be like giving the fighter a sword that breaks each time it hit someone.

 

An alternative would be enchanted tools just like you have enchanted weapons and grimoires. So an enchanted +5 lockpicket set that boosts the mechanics skills when lockpicking by 5 to 10 points. It cost more then cheap lock picking tools, but its reliable and reusable.

 

So who knows, maybe there will be masterwork tools that don't get consumed at the rate the cheaper stuff does? But let's not forget, it's a pre-industrial society; it's not like you're going to walk in to a Snap-On dealer and pick up a bunch of drop forged stainless steel whatsits and gamahooches whenver you like. possessing and/or manufacturing a set of tools like lockpicks is probably something that is frowned upon in civil society. maybe these tools are frequently improvised by the rogue himself and only a very select few smiths in the game world are shady enough to agree to make higher quality stuff?

[Stun]

Also, the "mechanic tools" analogy is faulty. Someone who isn't a master mechanic can, in fact, break master craft mechanic tools. And that's what we're discussing here.... a character with 75 lockpicking skill trying to use a tool to pick a lock that is otherwise beyond his skills to pick. Who's to say that he's not breaking that lockpick because he's using it wrong?

Edited October 28, 2012 by Stun

[XenoReaper]

Guys, Josh has said more than once that he doesn't always like jumping into forum conversations for reasons kind of like this... "one comment from a developer tends to get blown completely out of proportion in terms of its weight" (paraphrased- this Josh quote was slightly different in wording but was stated in an early KS interview).

 

Josh was giving a basic, dumbed-down example of a "what-if" but he wasn't saying that is how lockpicks would work. Just a simple explanation so the mechanic would come across without having to get too deep into it. We shouldn't assume that our characters will actually have to carry dozens of lockpicks at a time (and even if we did, they would likely explain it in a way that actually makes sense).

[Grand_Commander13]

If we're going with the anachronism of complicated locks I don't see why we can't go with a possible anachronism of reliable lockpicks.

 

If it's not realistic that a fighter shrug off repeated direct sword hits without harm, then make it so his HP are depleted without saying he was directly hit. If it's not realistic that a rogue break a half a dozen lockpicks when cracking a lock, then make it so it's something other than lockpicks he's depleting.

[Tamerlane]

In general, giving space between simple pass:fail on skill checks is a Good Thing. Introducing ways for companions to add their skills in is also a Good Thing, albeit not what Josh was talking about. The risk with scaling resource costs based on the difference between skill level and difficulty level is that this cost can easily become irrelevant if lockpicks (or whatever the consumable resource is) are too easy to obtain.

 

But... damn, guys. This is a Good Thing.

Do you think a professional thief/locksmith would buy cheap dollarstore grade tools that will break when used when his life could depends on success or do think he'd buy mastercraft tools, something he can consistantly rely up when ever he needs it even if it means paying more?

If you're a master thief, you won't destroy your tools.