Stealth, backstabbing and thievery

[Infiltrator_SF]

It would be great if someone could shed some light on how Obsidian plans to incorporate this aspect in the game.

 

I always roll a thief/assassin character in cRPGs and I am curious how it will turn out to be in PE.

 

IMHO, BG2 had a very satisfying feel for the assassin - picking the right tools, items and skills, you could one-shot very hard foes before they got a chance to react. After that, you were kind of useless unless you had invisibility potions or items to do another stab, or it was running in the fog to re-stealth.

 

The principle was very good and mostly satisfying but there were some pitfalls PE could learn from - first off, the one that most developers fail at - backstabing being based on weapon base damage / all weapons are equally good at stabbing. This must be avoided as a Staff of the Ram with huge base damage is an optimal backstabbing weapon no matter what.

 

Instead, there should be a hefty bonus for daggers/short swords to make them the ideal weapon for such things. Dual-wielding should also amplify the backstabbing capabilities but should also have drawbacks compared to one-hand attacks.

 

That said, a mace/sword rogue should definitely be a viable path and could have more consistent damage during combat as opposed to daggers that do a big initial burst but then perform worse as the clash stretches out.

 

Another very important part is stealth and the mechanics surrounding it. I believe it's a consensus that the visual/audio hiding/checking should be merged into one, as no one would max one and leave the other low because that would still make sneaking impossible. Trying to go into stealth and "failing" was also mind boggling during the stages where your sneaking wasn't that good, requiring you to just sit there a couple of turns until you finally enter successful, so I think every attempt should be successful, it's just that lower levels would require you to be slower and more prone to detection.

 

Visual cones is something that should definitely affect sneaking, as should walls and items that block vision (like in BG2). It shouldn't be too complicated though, a simple flat detection bonus should be applied if you are sneaking in front of someone as opposed to being behind them. Naturally, distance would factor in a lot as well.

 

Anyway, I'll add more thoughts tomorrow, but feel free to add in or comment

[AgentOrange]

Sneaking in isometric games is always terribly awkward - in Arcanum crouching and moving like a crab made you stand out less, and in BG you can walk right in front a monster and not get seen - I'd almost rather they remove that aspect entirely; give the thief class a greater focus on abilities such as traps (removal and creation), poisons, lock picking, disguises, etc.

 

Also backstabbing should be possible even after you've been noticed, so long as the enemy is facing away from you. It's silly that you can't effectively stab a person in the back when they have their back to you fighting another person.

Edited October 23, 2012 by AgentOrange

[Silver6986]

Sneaking in isometric games is always terribly awkward - in Arcanum crouching and moving like a crab made you stand out less, and in BG you can walk right in front a monster and not get seen - I'd almost rather they remove that aspect entirely; give the thief class a greater focus on abilities such as traps (removal and creation), poisons, lock picking, disguises, etc.

 

Also backstabbing should be possible even after you've been noticed, so long as the enemy is facing away from you. It's silly that you can't effectively stab a person in the back when they have their back to you fighting another person.

 

I too like OP generally play as a Rogue type character, but I would rather that despite the awkward look, baring in mind said limitations I still feel that sneaking per se is very important for a rogue/thief/assassin or what have you. I also agree with the idea of a backstab applying regardless of whether or not you are invisible, but I would think that will largely depend on the combat mechanics that are yet to be implemented by the devs, otherwise it could become overpowered.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Liquid_Silver11

[Pipyui]

I think I'd have to agree with AgentOrange there. Unless someone comes up with some good inspiration to fix stealth, I might rather it cut as it always feels kinda dumb in isometric games. At the very least I'd like to see some terrain modifiers to stealth - I'm sick of walking through barren fields in broad daylight undetected because I'm "sneaking." Am I wearing the world's most super-advanced ghillie suit or something? Darting between sparse shrubs?

 

This area could really use some originality. Perhaps rogues can desguise themselves. Maybe scout ahead and set traps/ambushes, throw bombs or create distractions during combat. It'd be real nice to have an infiltrator on my team to open a stronghold's gates from the inside using guile and, yes maybe, stealth (much less obnoxious at night and within city walls in non-combat) while my fighter shakes his fist uselessly outside at the gates. A control character. Really, just needs a little more work than "enter sneak mode, approach enemy, stab, run like heck, repeat."

Edited October 23, 2012 by Pipyui

[Grand Heresiarch]

OP you mentioned a great deal about weapon variety but consider this: all things being equal, (I.e. you are equally taking the target by surprise) when is there a scenario where a dagger is better? Why should a dagger do more backstab damage? I would think a surprise claymore to the skull far more effective than a knife. That being said, I would like to see stealth penalties on larger weapons as an effective way to mitigate the problem. Daggers ought to be for backstab because they are concealable, not because of some illusiory advantage of lore. I would even be ok with nothing greater in size than a shortsword even capable of backstabbing, or at least for sneaking, to get around this issue.

[Osvir]

My take;

 

First of all a quick explanation and what I see these three as (because they are different):

Thief = Someone who steals, most commonly for a living

Assassin = Someone who kills for a living

Rogue = A traveler, self-banished, survivalist, outdoorsman, mercantile/haggler. A vagabond, traveler... a ronin (roadtrippers and train hoppers, hitch-hikers, free loaders). Read Vaabond, so beautiful ad awesome manga. The hardcore codexians here seem to shun anime and manga but there are some intense, mature inspiration to be had (particularly from Berserk, Vinland Saga and Vagabond. Vagabond is a realistic fiction, story inspired by Miyamoto Musashi, trying to capture his mysterious existence in real history. Berserk is a gory, hardcory, deep story of a man who struggles through some pretty nasty adversaries, medieval fantasy. Vinland Saga is about vikings, haven't read it very far but it's deep and has a realistic tone to it).

 

1. Stealth/Sneak, should be a bonus in shadows and at night. I wouldn't mind a sneaking hunched down, lurking animation for it. Assassin's should be best at it and be able to blend and hide in the shadows, e.q., camouflage, Thief's and Rogue's would only sneak and wouldn't be able to hide (go transparent).

 

2. Backstab, anyone and everyone can backstab, however I do feel that Assassin's (in particular) could have an ability to strike at vital points (Vital Strike/Stab?).

 

3. Thievery, of course this is the main ability of the Thief's, the Rogue coming in second and the Assassin last. You should be able to steal from anyone, but instead of getting an entire screen of it, it should be a random item from the characters inventory. The better your pickpocket skill, the better and bigger items are you able to steal, for starters it might be a couple of gold pieces.

 

4. Scout/Search, equally important as all of the above, and this is the main ability of the Rogue. Being able to deduce, track, read the streets and the people, what kind of city it is. Are the people happy? Sad? How does this effect what you can expect from this city? This forest? What lurks within it, tracks of bandits but mostly spiderweb? Alright, so there's going to be tons of spiders here, better get the Spiderbane etc. etc. Find hidden caches? The road to treasure and glory? etc. etc. great ability that I want to see enhanced.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Osvir

[Infiltrator_SF]

OP you mentioned a great deal about weapon variety but consider this: all things being equal, (I.e. you are equally taking the target by surprise) when is there a scenario where a dagger is better? Why should a dagger do more backstab damage? I would think a surprise claymore to the skull far more effective than a knife. That being said, I would like to see stealth penalties on larger weapons as an effective way to mitigate the problem. Daggers ought to be for backstab because they are concealable, not because of some illusiory advantage of lore. I would even be ok with nothing greater in size than a shortsword even capable of backstabbing, or at least for sneaking, to get around this issue.

 

Well, if a "surprise claymore" to the skull would be far more effective, people would eventually find ways to min/max their way to a position where they can stealth easily with a huge sword and we're back to square one.

 

That said, I think rogues should be restricted to one-hand weapons. Daggers could also benefit from armor piercing, but be ineffective against certain enemies like skeletons.

 

 

My take;

 

First of all a quick explanation and what I see these three as (because they are different):

Thief = Someone who steals, most commonly for a living

Assassin = Someone who kills for a living

Rogue = A traveler, self-banished, survivalist, outdoorsman, mercantile/haggler. A vagabond, traveler... a ronin (roadtrippers and train hoppers, hitch-hikers, free loaders). Read Vaabond, so beautiful ad awesome manga. The hardcore codexians here seem to shun anime and manga but there are some intense, mature inspiration to be had (particularly from Berserk, Vinland Saga and Vagabond. Vagabond is a realistic fiction, story inspired by Miyamoto Musashi, trying to capture his mysterious existence in real history. Berserk is a gory, hardcory, deep story of a man who struggles through some pretty nasty adversaries, medieval fantasy. Vinland Saga is about vikings, haven't read it very far but it's deep and has a realistic tone to it).

 

1. Stealth/Sneak, should be a bonus in shadows and at night. I wouldn't mind a sneaking hunched down, lurking animation for it. Assassin's should be best at it and be able to blend and hide in the shadows, e.q., camouflage, Thief's and Rogue's would only sneak and wouldn't be able to hide (go transparent).

 

2. Backstab, anyone and everyone can backstab, however I do feel that Assassin's (in particular) could have an ability to strike at vital points (Vital Strike/Stab?).

 

3. Thievery, of course this is the main ability of the Thief's, the Rogue coming in second and the Assassin last. You should be able to steal from anyone, but instead of getting an entire screen of it, it should be a random item from the characters inventory. The better your pickpocket skill, the better and bigger items are you able to steal, for starters it might be a couple of gold pieces.

 

4. Scout/Search, equally important as all of the above, and this is the main ability of the Rogue. Being able to deduce, track, read the streets and the people, what kind of city it is. Are the people happy? Sad? How does this effect what you can expect from this city? This forest? What lurks within it, tracks of bandits but mostly spiderweb? Alright, so there's going to be tons of spiders here, better get the Spiderbane etc. etc. Find hidden caches? The road to treasure and glory? etc. etc. great ability that I want to see enhanced.

 

Absolutely, I agree with your assessments, an Assassin should be the most proficient character at eliminating single targets fast and reaching them with impunity, a Thief should definitely be the go-to person when you want to get your hands on good gear or gold early in the game and the scout/rogue should be the best at detecting enemies, traps and treasures, while also providing insight and perhaps different conversation options with enough charisma.

 

 

Sneaking in isometric games is always terribly awkward - in Arcanum crouching and moving like a crab made you stand out less, and in BG you can walk right in front a monster and not get seen - I'd almost rather they remove that aspect entirely; give the thief class a greater focus on abilities such as traps (removal and creation), poisons, lock picking, disguises, etc.

 

Also backstabbing should be possible even after you've been noticed, so long as the enemy is facing away from you. It's silly that you can't effectively stab a person in the back when they have their back to you fighting another person.

 

For me, sneaking in BG2 was ok for the most part, except for the annoyances that I outlined in the OP. I would never even think about removing the stealth aspect from a cRPG, it's a core part of it, especially one that inherits from BG/PT/IWD.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Infiltrator_SF

[HereticSaint]

No matter how, "dumb" stealth seems in isometric games (It's pretty awful in most games, even on the hardest difficulties in the games that difficulty actually has an impact on if people can detect you or not) it should stay.

 

Hell, I started playing Fallout: NV again the other day and I'm more perceptive than 99% of the creatures/humans in the game...doesn't mean it should all of a sudden be gone. (Though I could do without crouching behind an NPC that obviously saw you and stealing stuff/pickpocketing them...)

[Hellfell]

Stealth is very difficult to do right in isometric RPGs. I'd rather cut it than have terrible and awkward sneaking in the daylight gameplay.

[Infiltrator_SF]

Stealth is very difficult to do right in isometric RPGs. I'd rather cut it than have terrible and awkward sneaking in the daylight gameplay.

 

Magic is really difficult to do in isometric RPGs. I'd rather cut it than have terrible and awkward memorizing/sleeping to cast spells gameplay.

 

If you don't like it feel free not to have any stealth characters. It wasn't ever mandatory.

[Hellfell]

Stealth is very difficult to do right in isometric RPGs. I'd rather cut it than have terrible and awkward sneaking in the daylight gameplay.

 

Magic is really difficult to do in isometric RPGs. I'd rather cut it than have terrible and awkward memorizing/sleeping to cast spells gameplay.

 

If you don't like it feel free not to have any stealth characters. It wasn't ever mandatory.

 

Insulting other people in your own thread is not a good way to promote discussion. Bye.

[Sensuki]

their affinity for skullduggery allows some talented rogues to tap into their souls to perform amazing stunts: fading from view in plain sight, briefly cloaking their allies in a veil of shadow, imbuing their weapons with a soul-eating venom, or even becoming so insubstantial that blades barely hurt them.

 

Invisibility, Shadow/Darkness summoning and becoming insubstantial

 

Sounds like Rogues are gonna get some serious love in this game.

[Pipyui]

The problem is that while there are many settings where stealth is acceptable, there are also too many settings where it is not.

I already used the barren field / broad daylight example. Especially when in a combat setting, this is not acceptable. That's why I suggest a terrain/lighting stealth modifier.

I'm not trying to heckle assassins, I love playing assassins/rogues in games. I just feel that if I'm gonna be one, I'd like to feel that I'm playing as one. Entering combat with my whole party, entering sneak mode, and walking right into an enemy to stab them on every encounter does not give me that feel. That's why I think that rogue classes should have more of a combat-control element in combat, and save the stealth for non-combat, where it's truely useful.

[Sensuki]

That's why I think they're going with magical stealth.

[Osvir]

Stealth is very difficult to do right in isometric RPGs. I'd rather cut it than have terrible and awkward sneaking in the daylight gameplay.

 

Metal Gear Solid did it greatly. It is all about the field of vision, and it isn't 1998 anymore (I don't know why that date, just random), it's 2012 and stealth from an isometric view can be done goed. The Assassin uses camouflage to blend with the foreground and background, everyone is capable of throwing magic or have magic abilities in P:E. I would like to see the old IE stealth system be appropriately updated. Where field of vision matters, and you need to crawl alongside the walls and hide behind boxes and other props.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Osvir

[Infiltrator_SF]

The problem is that while there are many settings where stealth is acceptable, there are also too many settings where it is not.

I already used the barren field / broad daylight example. Especially when in a combat setting, this is not acceptable. That's why I suggest a terrain/lighting stealth modifier.

I'm not trying to heckle assassins, I love playing assassins/rogues in games. I just feel that if I'm gonna be one, I'd like to feel that I'm playing as one. Entering combat with my whole party, entering sneak mode, and walking right into an enemy to stab them on every encounter does not give me that feel. That's why I think that rogue classes should have more of a combat-control element in combat, and save the stealth for non-combat, where it's truely useful.

 

Well, no one is trying to say any character should excel in every type of situation. A fire mage won't be good against demons, just like a stealth character won't be that good in broad dailight on open terrain. But there's always other things you can do, like pull out a bow or just let everyone else engage before flanking with the rogue/assassin/thief.

 

I agree with Osivir, stealth from an isometric perspective is very doable and it has been already done well in games like Commandos before.

[Lysen]

Isometric games aren't very 'realistic' and of course they cannot compare to such games like Thief. It doesn't mean however that the developers should cut stealth (what a strange idea, really). Even if you take modern games like Dishonoured, made by masters of the genre (Harvey Smith), it doesn't have very 'realistic' stealth mechanics. Rather than cut stealth, it would be better to improve it somehow by using some great ideas from Thief (like noise meter).

[Pipyui]

That's too some extent why I changed my view a little bit. Stealth during non-combat is fine and I do not think it should be cut, I just think that stealth during combat can be rather silly. That isn't to say that rogueish characters shouldn't be able to backstab or anything, but rogueish combat should be more about trickery and misdirection than about sneaking behind opponents.

 

I still think it'd be neat to give stealth classes more devices to work with towards this end. Traps, caltrops, smoke. I'm saying that rogues should have more power to manipulate combat to make up for loss of combat-sneak.

[Osvir]

That's too some extent why I changed my view a little bit. Stealth during non-combat is fine and I do not think it should be cut, I just think that stealth during combat can be rather silly. That isn't to say that rogueish characters shouldn't be able to backstab or anything, but rogueish combat should be more about trickery and misdirection than about sneaking behind opponents.

 

I still think it'd be neat to give stealth classes more devices to work with towards this end. Traps, caltrops, smoke. I'm saying that rogues should have more power to manipulate combat to make up for loss of combat-sneak.

 

Your Fighter is making the enemy Fighter pre-occupied, your Wizard is having a duel against another Wizard whilst their Archer is focused on your Rogue. But the Archer gets distracted when a Magic Missile hits his face, and the Rogue is gone, the Archer lost focus and is now focusing the Fighter. Couple moments later the Archer goes down as the Rogue had taken this moment to sneak around the perimeter and flanked the Archer.

 

Likewise, an easier example:

3v2, you have 2 fighters and a Rogue, the enemy got 2 Fighters. If both my Fighters keep the enemy Fighters busy, they won't have much of a clue of my Rogue sneaking about. That's why it isn't silly, it is just the execution of it (specially in Baldur's Gate) that is somewhat silly (in combat). It could definitely be improved on, and made better.

 

Stealth isn't necessarily your character vanishing into thin air in plain view, it's your character tricking the enemies and pretty much stay in hiding. Your enemies should know that you are out there (if used in combat), they might just not know exactly where. And they should never return to their duties like nothing happened, if you get seen you get seen, the soldier that saw you and his fellows around him should be on high alert. Maybe they should even run across the entire dungeon and alert all of their buddies too ("sound the horns!" works too) making the dungeon suddenly much much more difficult <- That would advocate for quick take downs before everyone are alerted of your crawling about.

 

My take;

 

First of all a quick explanation and what I see these three as (because they are different):

Thief = Someone who steals, most commonly for a living

Assassin = Someone who kills for a living

Rogue = A traveler, self-banished, survivalist, outdoorsman, mercantile/haggler. A vagabond, traveler... a ronin (roadtrippers and train hoppers, hitch-hikers, free loaders). Read Vaabond, so beautiful ad awesome manga. The hardcore codexians here seem to shun anime and manga but there are some intense, mature inspiration to be had (particularly from Berserk, Vinland Saga and Vagabond. Vagabond is a realistic fiction, story inspired by Miyamoto Musashi, trying to capture his mysterious existence in real history. Berserk is a gory, hardcory, deep story of a man who struggles through some pretty nasty adversaries, medieval fantasy. Vinland Saga is about vikings, haven't read it very far but it's deep and has a realistic tone to it).

 

1. Stealth/Sneak, should be a bonus in shadows and at night. I wouldn't mind a sneaking hunched down, lurking animation for it. Assassin's should be best at it and be able to blend and hide in the shadows, e.q., camouflage, Thief's and Rogue's would only sneak and wouldn't be able to hide (go transparent).

 

2. Backstab, anyone and everyone can backstab, however I do feel that Assassin's (in particular) could have an ability to strike at vital points (Vital Strike/Stab?).

 

3. Thievery, of course this is the main ability of the Thief's, the Rogue coming in second and the Assassin last. You should be able to steal from anyone, but instead of getting an entire screen of it, it should be a random item from the characters inventory. The better your pickpocket skill, the better and bigger items are you able to steal, for starters it might be a couple of gold pieces.

 

4. Scout/Search, equally important as all of the above, and this is the main ability of the Rogue. Being able to deduce, track, read the streets and the people, what kind of city it is. Are the people happy? Sad? How does this effect what you can expect from this city? This forest? What lurks within it, tracks of bandits but mostly spiderweb? Alright, so there's going to be tons of spiders here, better get the Spiderbane etc. etc. Find hidden caches? The road to treasure and glory? etc. etc. great ability that I want to see enhanced.

 

Wanted to add in one more.

 

5. Traps: Rogue 1st, Assassin 2nd and Thief 3rd. Why? The Thief isn't a trap maker or a killer, the Thief is a sneaky burglar, a possible mugger, good at haggling and slithering out of situations. Being the Class of Thief should be seriously looked down upon by the citizens of P:E. No one likes a Thief, unless it is the Robin Hood kind. No, traps are for the Rogue first and foremost, being the Utility character, and second for the Assassin (someone mentioned "smoke") using traps to escape. So a Rogue would prepare traps before combat, whilst the Assassin would use traps and utility items in combat no?

Edited October 23, 2012 by Osvir

[AGX-17]

An assassin/rogue type class should have some kind of soul ability that allows them to conceal themselves. Either some sort of invisibility or some kind of "hidden in plain sight" sort of thing that prevents enemies from noticing them (or both with the less effective skill being available at lower levels,) without looking like they're trying to take a dump in the middle of a fight. At the same time, I feel the idea of "backstabbing" is kind of out of place, because the term implies that the victim trusts the attacker not to attack them, and in reality getting stabbed anywhere in the trunk/torso is a lot more mortal a wound than getting stabbed in the back in a video game. I don't get why you can't aim for the neck or the armpit (both high-value target areas in real blade combat.)

 

Sneaking in isometric games is always terribly awkward - in Arcanum crouching and moving like a crab made you stand out less, and in BG you can walk right in front a monster and not get seen - I'd almost rather they remove that aspect entirely; give the thief class a greater focus on abilities such as traps (removal and creation), poisons, lock picking, disguises, etc.

 

Also backstabbing should be possible even after you've been noticed, so long as the enemy is facing away from you. It's silly that you can't effectively stab a person in the back when they have their back to you fighting another person.

 

The problem with trapping is that it's typically an ambush/defensive tactic, and the player is almost always on the offense in these types of games. My last experience with traps in a CRPG was Dragon Age: Origins, in which it was utterly worthless. Not only did it do practically no damage, the debuffs lasted a matter of seconds. Couple that with the fact that you had to sneak forward, sans party, to plant them, then make yourself noticed, then try to get stationary guards to follow you back through the trapped area... It's really just not viable if you're not planning any quests based on "Orcs Must Die!"

 

It could definitely be valid as a part of the Stronghold element of the game, assuming it's going to be periodically attacked by hostile factions or unaffiliated NPCs.

Edited October 23, 2012 by AGX-17

[CheeseGraterSuicide]

all things being equal, (I.e. you are equally taking the target by surprise) when is there a scenario where a dagger is better? Why should a dagger do more backstab damage? I would think a surprise claymore to the skull far more effective than a knife.

I've typically interpreted backstabbing as something that takes finesse, not brute force. Sure, you could technically have a rogue using a giant sword to "backstab" with, but I don't think it fits the theme of stealth. I think it makes more sense to imagine a rogue making strikes with precision, like purposely shoving a shortsword up and under the ribcage to maximize damage. Quite literally, a "back stab".

 

Which is precisely why a dagger or shortsword might deserve bonuses to backstabbing. These weapons would be ideal for this task. Plus, daggers are usually pretty worthless in RPGs, so giving them such an advantage would help keep them viable. They would have the highest bonus, followed by shortswords, and longswords would either have no bonus at all, a penalty, or would be impossible to backstab with outright. This need not be a bonus to damage though, perhaps just a bonus to hit.

[Pipyui]

That's too some extent why I changed my view a little bit. Stealth during non-combat is fine and I do not think it should be cut, I just think that stealth during combat can be rather silly. That isn't to say that rogueish characters shouldn't be able to backstab or anything, but rogueish combat should be more about trickery and misdirection than about sneaking behind opponents.

 

I still think it'd be neat to give stealth classes more devices to work with towards this end. Traps, caltrops, smoke. I'm saying that rogues should have more power to manipulate combat to make up for loss of combat-sneak.

 

Your Fighter is making the enemy Fighter pre-occupied, your Wizard is having a duel against another Wizard whilst their Archer is focused on your Rogue. But the Archer gets distracted when a Magic Missile hits his face, and the Rogue is gone, the Archer lost focus and is now focusing the Fighter. Couple moments later the Archer goes down as the Rogue had taken this moment to sneak around the perimeter and flanked the Archer.

 

Likewise, an easier example:

3v2, you have 2 fighters and a Rogue, the enemy got 2 Fighters. If both my Fighters keep the enemy Fighters busy, they won't have much of a clue of my Rogue sneaking about. That's why it isn't silly, it is just the execution of it (specially in Baldur's Gate) that is somewhat silly (in combat). It could definitely be improved on, and made better.

 

Stealth isn't necessarily your character vanishing into thin air in plain view, it's your character tricking the enemies and pretty much stay in hiding. Your enemies should know that you are out there (if used in combat), they might just not know exactly where. And they should never return to their duties like nothing happened, if you get seen you get seen, the soldier that saw you and his fellows around him should be on high alert. Maybe they should even run across the entire dungeon and alert all of their buddies too ("sound the horns!" works too) making the dungeon suddenly much much more difficult <- That would advocate for quick take downs before everyone are alerted of your crawling about.

 

That's kind of the feel that I was trying to get at (pre-combat anyway), and I can't entirely disagree with the rogue sneaking so long as other enemies are preocupied, which brings me back to my first point: terrain / lighting stealth modifiers.

 

The trouble with having rogues with little other utility than sneaking behind enemies during combat is that it's reminiscent of Dragon Age: Origins rogue combat. And that really stunk. (Traps really were useless in DAO)

If this can be improved significantly (see terrain modifiers), I think it would bother me less.

 

Hopefully this example helps to explain better my fears for stealth gameplay (I'm not the only one who thought stealth was crap in DAO, right?).

Edited October 23, 2012 by Pipyui

[Infiltrator_SF]

That's kind of the feel that I was trying to get at (pre-combat anyway), and I can't entirely disagree with the rogue sneaking so long as other enemies are preocupied, which brings me back to my first point: terrain / lighting stealth modifiers.

 

The trouble with having rogues with little other utility than sneaking behind enemies during combat is that it's reminiscent of Dragon Age: Origins rogue combat. And that really stunk. (Traps really were useless in DAO)

If this can be improved significantly (see terrain modifiers), I think it would bother me less.

 

Hopefully this example helps to explain better my fears for stealth gameplay (I'm not the only one who thought stealth was crap in DAO, right?).

 

Rogues in DAO were mostly DPS machines and little else, quite underwhelming. But in BG2 a rogue was the guy that could potentially trivialize a very hard encounter by instantly eliminating a powerful mage out of the equation, not to mention trap detection, trap set-ups, pick pocketing, scouting, lockpicking etc.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Infiltrator_SF

[Pipyui]

You help assuage my fears a little, Infiltrator. I suppose I could like combat stealth so long as it was done right (not DAO).

But stealth is more than just getting the first strike in an encounter. What other elements/skills are you looking forward to your rogue (umbrella term) having?

 

Personally, I'd love to see some infiltration type encounters (I have a hunch that you may feel the same). Quests that require the skills of a rogue for more than just opening combat / chests / dialog options (looking at you again, DAO).

Edited October 23, 2012 by Pipyui

[Infiltrator_SF]

I agree, stealth is more than just landing that critical, initial backstab, I am hopeful that some mud/dust in the eyes to incapacitate a warrior or poisoned weapons could also make it into PE.

 

Quests that require exclusive class specialties also sound very interesting, and there's a myriad of those that a rogue can fulfill. I think it would be interesting that, in a large dungeon, a rogue has to be sent off to activate a door by completing a separate mini-dungeon (perhaps a secret passage) designed to take advantage of stealth and subterfuge.