Dev Q: Project Eternity and "Mature Content"

[eselle28]

I don't think that rape should be entirely removed from a game because some people may be sensitive to it, and I think there's a place for depictions of it in games.

 

But I don't want the experience of my character being raped to be a necessary consequence of selecting "female" in the character creation screen. That's wrenching a huge bit of character development out of my hands, and it's doing so in one of the most unpleasant ways possible. It may add realism to the game, but in my opinion, it doesn't add fun to it. All it does is take away my opportunity to have a bit of a power fantasy in my game, at least unless I resign myself to playing a gender other than my own.

 

I"m particularly opposed to making things specifically unpleasant for female characters because these sorts of changes make the game far less accessible for people who always play them or who would play them on their first playthrough, and it seems as if many realism advocates want these sorts of options for later playthroughs when they've become bored with other content in the game.

 

 

 

The PC should not be raped, not sure where anybody got that idea from. I don't think anybody wants the PC raped. Nor do I think having a companion be raped either (although, I do think if I am evil I should be able to sell of my companion to slaver or sacrifice them to dark being, or use them in a ritual to give myself immortality..etc)

 

However, I am for having gender references and characters being treated discriminatory or bonuses based on your gender and race in different situations.

 

There are people who are in favor of that. I'm a little more neutral on the subject of companions and rape. I'm not generally a fan of rape being used as a shorthand method of character development, but I can imagine some situations where it could be written in an appropriate and thoughtful way. As for encountering rape in the world or in the course of questing, I was expecting that the subject would be addressed at some point. It's certainly been included in other games.

 

As for gender discrimination, I don't have a problem with some of the societies in the world being biased and treating my character differently based on gender or race. I would not, however, be very interested in a "realistic" world where all of the cultures thought it odd or immoral for a woman to be an adventurer and where almost every NPC I interacted with commented negatively on my character's gender. Aside from being a little depressing, I think it would quickly get very one-note and annoying. The occasional bonus or additional conversation option based on race or gender or class is a good thing (and wouldn't always have to be sexual or based on prejudice...I can easily imagine a character reminding an NPC of a son or daughter, and receiving more lenient treatment because of that).

[UncleBourbon]

I like the ideas in both of the above posts - I won't quote for the sake of space. I don't like any short cuts in character developement. There should be some catalytic events, but also plenty regular, over-time banter and such, I think. I also like the sacrifice/ritual and such idea, for evil characters. BG2 started with torture and screams - but I think it worked fairly well, being off-screen and such. The majority of it was conveyed in Imoen's tone and such. Violence and other mature themes don't have to be in-your-face and such to be appreciated - though I did enjoy the fallout games more for it. So I think some mix, both in content and how obviously portrayed it is, is best. That said, the idea of a player character being violated like that seems like a bad design move to me, regardless of whether or not they applied it to both genders of player character.

[sodaTwo]

A mature theme, for me, are nuances and leaving room for interpretation. I would really love to see Obsidian not spelling out everything out loud and perhaps dare to leave some doors unopened. Realize that this whole kickstarter thing is founded on nostalgia and that most of us backers are age 30+, boobs and foul language are perhaps not the most exciting thing. And for the record I loved Dead wood. Not for the amount of uses of the word ****suckers though...

Edited October 21, 2012 by sodaTwo

[Mr Moonlight]

I just hope this game and setting doesn't become a dumping ground for all the team's personal perversions and philias.

[Gyor]

Why does "mature" content have to be sooo depressing? Why does tragedty have to be the center piece? And why is sex for sex's sake or for humour immature?

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as Gradudice Nudity or titillation. I mean nudity is never nessarary to the plot of a movie, I've never Rrrrrrwatched a movie only to say "I couldn't get plot until I saw her nipple, now it all makes scene and seeing her arse really completed her character arc". Nudity is for stimulation, everything else is just the rationizations and setting up the fantasy. Same with titillation.

 

Maturity is one of the most abused and riduculous words in the english language.

 

And why do people who search for maturity treat sex like a funeral?

 

There should be funny stuff too not just sad, like your character has sex with a prostitute only for the sex to trigger memories from a past life in her, memories of being your grandma.

[Mr Moonlight]

Why does "mature" content have to be sooo depressing? Why does tragedty have to be the center piece? And why is sex for sex's sake or for humour immature?

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as Gradudice Nudity or titillation. I mean nudity is never nessarary to the plot of a movie, I've never Rrrrrrwatched a movie only to say "I couldn't get plot until I saw her nipple, now it all makes scene and seeing her arse really completed her character arc". Nudity is for stimulation, everything else is just the rationizations and setting up the fantasy. Same with titillation.

 

Maturity is one of the most abused and riduculous words in the english language.

 

And why do people who search for maturity treat sex like a funeral?

 

There should be funny stuff too not just sad, like your character has sex with a prostitute only for the sex to trigger memories from a past life in her, memories of being your grandma.

 

And yet your example brings to light horrifying implications of reincarnation.

[Nonek]

I'd like to see mature themes and morals handled like in the Witcher and of course previous Obsidian games, Bioware have always seemed a little infantile and simplified for myself. I prefer the complex themes presented in the aforementioned games, add to that a logical reactive world rather than an illogical linear plot corridor and i'll be more than satisfied. One stand out moment for me was the Werewolf quest in the original Witcher, an almost fairy tale ending in a world of all too real tragedy, it stood out all the more clearly for being so. A light in the darkness if you will.

 

That and even the most villainous of characters being intelligent, reasonable and more importantly understandable rather than simplified cackling buffoons enslaved by mcguffins or what have you.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

I don't believe there is such a thing as Gradudice Nudity or titillation. I mean nudity is never nessarary to the plot of a movie, I've never Rrrrrrwatched a movie only to say "I couldn't get plot until I saw her nipple, now it all makes scene and seeing her arse really completed her character arc". Nudity is for stimulation, everything else is just the rationizations and setting up the fantasy. Same with titillation.

 

Allow me to illustrate the difference between 'gratuitous sex/nudity' and 'non-gratuitous sex/nudity'.

 

The book Game of Thrones features a scene in which Ned has sex...or, well, has just finished having sex...with Catelyn. We view the scene through Catelyn's eyes. Her thoughts and their behavior help establish that the two are deeply in love and very close to one another. The sex isn't strictly necessary, but neither does the book shy away from it needlessly. It helps establish their relationship. Non-gratuitous.

 

The TV series Game of Thrones features a scene in which one prostitute fingers another prostitute in front of Petyr Baelish while he gives a motive rant. The sex has very, very little to do with anything whatsoever and in fact is more distracting and annoying than anything. Gratuitous.

 

The book Game of Thrones features a scene in which Daenerys Targaryen has sex with Khal Drogo in a way he isn't used to (girl on top), which helps establish why he is actually falling in love with her instead of just viewing her as his personal **** puppet. Very important for the development of the plot and the characters. Non-gratuitous.

 

The TV series Game of Thrones has a whole scene with a prostitute giving some guy a blow job while Petyr Baelish watches through the peephole in the door. He then goes off and talks to another prostitute, with the first part of the scene having absolutely **** all to do with anything. Gratuitous.

 

There is a difference. If a scene involving sex helps establish character or advance plot, it is justified. If its clearly just there for the sake of it, it isn't.

[sparklecat]

In my opinion mature content is delving into topics like poverty and how it causes people to do things that are against their moral values.

 

Yeah, this. I want a game where events have made it so that my character going into the final battle simply isn't the same person as they were at the beginning, and it is, in fact, completely believable now for them to make completely different decisions than they would have back then - and not simply because they have more information now. I want character evolution that feels natural over the course of the game. Big life-changing events (like death of loved ones, turning into the superpowered avatar of a god, finding out you're an amnesiac dark lord, etc.) can do that, but so can observing how other people react to the circumstances in their life. Observing how, say, long-term oppression of a group from a institution you once supported really does nothing but backfire and cause more harm than good in the end. Coming to see that is is oppression. That's what I think of when we talk mature themes - issues more analogous to what adults have to worry about with a lot of shades of grey and no easy answers.

[Krios]

Mature themes do not start with violence and end with sex. Obsidian understands that. Themes even the hard topics such as slavery, prostitution (I am thinking a seedy underworld where people are exploited and worse), the hard and often harsh side of life. Themes you do not find in happy fairy tales. I for one will like to see how Obsidian deals with the difficult stuff. Are they able to empathize with the down-trodden, will their characters champion world peace, etc. Sure sex and violence has its place in life, and should have a place in Obsidian games. They should include them tastefully and appropriately.

[cosmin haraga]

it just hit me : do we get slaves?

 

it would save the trip to a brothel - just buy a cute one - bang - blank screen - it's isometric not withcer 2!

 

and would make for immense publicity

 

I'm thinking something between gemmel/druss / skilgannon and anita blake /hamilton

[jarpie]

Sigh... having anykind of violence, sex or controversial subjects doesn't make mature but more usually makes them just ridiculous or looking to cause surge in sales or audience ratings in TV.

 

Let me quote my own post from the first page of this topic:

When I think of mature, I don't think sex, violence or harsh language. When I think of mature it's that the fiction in subject whether it being film, book or game tackles on different kind of deeper/higher issues such as MCA said in the recent interview:

 

With this world I think it's going to be a little bit more subtle. The whole premise of the lore and the magic system is that souls get inherited, and then when you pass away the souls wait for a time and then come back to another body. The question is how much of your own behavior is being governed by your own free will or the influence of the soul inside you and all of its history? I think that can raise some interesting questions for both the player character and the companions.

 

When I think of mature film, I think of film like Blade Runner which tackles on with the issues "If we give conciousness and emotions to androids, are they still just androids?" even though that is somewhat under the surface but it's still there.

 

That's not to say I don't enjoy violent films such as Evil Dead 1 and 2 but I don't consider them as very mature even though they are great films.

 

For game, film/tv or book to be mature it doesn't have to have things like sex, rape, slavery, violence, grimdark "social issues", lot of cursing or harsh language.

 

Maturity has to do how it deals with different kind of things, which are not necessarely and not usually subjects I listed above - it can deal with the themes such as Planescape: Torment did, in which they partly tackled on the subject "Is a man just sum of their memories or is there something more" or what Obsidian wants to do with the souls: "The question is how much of your own behavior is being governed by your own free will or the influence of the soul inside you and all of its history? I think that can raise some interesting questions for both the player character and the companions."

 

Now, that is the -mature- subject I want to see in the game.

 

And rape? really? Do you really think that would be suitable for a game? Whenever I've seen games having rape, slavery or something else "serious social issues" they have just felt like artificially tacked into the game to give -impression- that it's supposedly mature.

 

What else can you do with the slavery what haven't been done in the last 50 years in everywhere else? I know devs said that there will be slavery but I really doubt it'll be anything anything more than to give more depthness into the difference of the cultures in the gameworld.

 

Fortunately I can trust OE to make a game which won't be ridiculously grimdark like Dragon Age: Origins or The Witcher with their overblown melodramacy and the way they tacked on the "serious issues" into the games just because they wanted to give impression of fake maturity.

[cosmin haraga]

may I point that CUTTING out the "things like sex, rape, slavery, violence, grimdark "social issues", lot of cursing or harsh language" ,

yet allowing for endless bloodshed and killing doesn't make it very mature either

afterall violence is usualy represed sexuality

watch me the new freud !

[jarpie]

may I point that CUTTING out the "things like sex, rape, slavery, violence, grimdark "social issues", lot of cursing or harsh language" ,

yet allowing for endless bloodshed and killing doesn't make it very mature either

afterall violence is usualy represed sexuality

watch me the new freud !

 

Obvious troll is obvious. Move along, nothing to see here!

[cosmin haraga]

1 how do you fill about dungeon siege, sacred , temple of elemental evil, maybe even icewind dale ( a little at least ) ?

 

most 99 % of adult content mature or not ins't there

 

2 how do you feel about fallout & comp, witcher & comp, elder scrolls & comp ( including plenty of nude/blood mods )?

 

plenty of gratuitous imature adult content there

 

3 guess that pretty much sums it up doesn't it?

[Aoyagi]

So this is what's considered "mature" content? And I've always thought that it stands for not-so-easily solvable problems, making decisions that matter - have consequences - and so on. Oh well.

Maybe beloved Obsidian will include a gang / tribe / group that will abduct entire families so they could enslave them, sexually violate them, then kill them, then violate them again and then eat them. While, of course, it would all be clearly depicted.

Following skullcrushing of said gang's members could involve sounds based on real-life torture an slaughter.

 

My opinion on this - Fallout 2 was optimal (from my point of view), but even 'naive' worlds also have their magic, it all needs to fit together. I'm still very much trusting Obsidian's devs will make the best choice.

[Dangermouth]

Mature.

 

Nice word.

 

I like mature cheese. Well-ripened, bit of mould in it. Not for the faint-hearted.

 

Strikes me those who seek to be prescriptive are hiding from 'maturity' as understood by the meaning of the word when used in the Western/Anglo-Saxon social paradigm concerning the content/themes/interaction with life that is inherent in being 'mature' which is often meant to be 'adult' i.e. not a child and thus someone who has knowledge, understanding and the capbability to dissociate from the immediate amygdala-rush (knee - jerk) reaction that a less 'mature' person would/could not. Often, by its nature it suggests that one is more comfortable with some things e.g. sex (it exists, people do it, they like it, etc, etc) like the, say, Swedish, than the somewhat prudish English and thus has a more 'mature' attidude.

 

It is unlikely to be used with things such as "I have 10 million pokemon creatures in a box in my room and I had chips and beans for tea" which might well match the criterion for being considered 'immature'.

 

Therefore (to cut to the chase): the 'mature' themes must by their nature include those things that fall within the mental ambit of those considerred 'mature' by virtue of their thought/action processes and perhaps age.It is to be hoped/expected, however, that such themes will also be dealt with 'maturely' i.e. in a considered, perhaps dispassionate even, manner that recognises the subtleties of the 'mature' human existence.

 

TL:DR version. We're gonna have sex. But also matters of betrayal, selfishness, conflicts of interest and conscience, etc. It'll be done cleverly, so your brain might get a work out.

 

Gotta love this:

 

"And the mighty hero crept into the mage's tower, ready for anything! Magic, demons, mazes, vicious bread puddings ...well, okay, maybe not vicious bread puddings."

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

I'm reminded of a magazine ad for the original Fallout. I tried to find the image but my google is weak this morning. The text read something like:

 

Fallout - A typical RPG*

 

*Without magic, elves, fairies and all that other crap

 

I think that's the idea they are going for here. Now I know that PE will have magic... and elves... and possibly fairies too, but the point is that the intention was to design a game that defied the conventions of a genre. The Witcher series tries to do this for fantasy RPGs, but is too over-the-top IMO (plus the gameplay manages to be both bafflling to a new player and a spamfest for the veteran) so it will be interesting to see Obsidian's take on it.

[Cowgoesmoo]

It is kind of striking how much of the Kickstarter video is dedicated to the various members of the team talking about how Mature this game is going to be, and all the Mature themes they'll get to discuss. I definitely get the vibe from the video that they aren't just talking about the intelligent, tasteful kind of mature. Tim Cain seemed pretty stoked to be making an M rated game.

 

I say bring it on. I, for one, like that kind of mature. I want the game to be insightful, intelligent, and thought provoking, of course. But I also want it to be fun, and sue me, but I think gratuitous gore and sex can be fun in entertainment. Would Fallout be as fun as it is without the excessive "mature" stuff?

 

Your observation on the videos is what prompted this thread.

 

To a degree I can also appreciate your second comment. I think thought that how well that can be done really depends on the style of game. I haven’t got the impression that the P:E is going to be of the same comic over the top style as the fallouts were. (They were deliberately immature in some ways - Harold and the reaper always get a chuckle) In many games these days there are the extra gore and extra blood options - often on by default. Why? What do they add to the story or characters? How are they mature? If someone looses an arm so be it but there is no need to glorify/gorify it.

 

The same with other content. It happens let it happen and get on with things not give these things more superficial value that they deserve. Even in BG its amusing at first when you kill with a crit and they explode (I was 17) but after a while it just becomes litter on the screen that has no value and really has no need to be there. Its amusing yes but not strictly mature.

 

One thing that got me recently was a game where some of the action voice comments by a character had swearing in it. So every 3rd or 4th time I told him to perform an action the guy swore. I wasn't offended by it but I don't want to have to sit there and listen to it as I try to play the game. I don't play games or read books or watch movies to be exposed to excessive exaggerated sex violence swearing or anything. As a side note books that I have read that have the most swearing but do it well are books where they have created their own swear words to suite their created world. (Even the Witcher does this to a degree I think?)

 

A huge portion of this has to do with context and respecting that context and the maturity of the subject material appropriately.

[jarpie]

It is kind of striking how much of the Kickstarter video is dedicated to the various members of the team talking about how Mature this game is going to be, and all the Mature themes they'll get to discuss. I definitely get the vibe from the video that they aren't just talking about the intelligent, tasteful kind of mature. Tim Cain seemed pretty stoked to be making an M rated game.

 

I say bring it on. I, for one, like that kind of mature. I want the game to be insightful, intelligent, and thought provoking, of course. But I also want it to be fun, and sue me, but I think gratuitous gore and sex can be fun in entertainment. Would Fallout be as fun as it is without the excessive "mature" stuff?

 

Your observation on the videos is what prompted this thread.

 

To a degree I can also appreciate your second comment. I think thought that how well that can be done really depends on the style of game. I haven’t got the impression that the P:E is going to be of the same comic over the top style as the fallouts were. (They were deliberately immature in some ways - Harold and the reaper always get a chuckle) In many games these days there are the extra gore and extra blood options - often on by default. Why? What do they add to the story or characters? How are they mature? If someone looses an arm so be it but there is no need to glorify/gorify it.

 

The same with other content. It happens let it happen and get on with things not give these things more superficial value that they deserve. Even in BG its amusing at first when you kill with a crit and they explode (I was 17) but after a while it just becomes litter on the screen that has no value and really has no need to be there. Its amusing yes but not strictly mature.

 

One thing that got me recently was a game where some of the action voice comments by a character had swearing in it. So every 3rd or 4th time I told him to perform an action the guy swore. I wasn't offended by it but I don't want to have to sit there and listen to it as I try to play the game. I don't play games or read books or watch movies to be exposed to excessive exaggerated sex violence swearing or anything. As a side note books that I have read that have the most swearing but do it well are books where they have created their own swear words to suite their created world. (Even the Witcher does this to a degree I think?)

 

A huge portion of this has to do with context and respecting that context and the maturity of the subject material appropriately.

 

I think lot of people are getting more and less mistaken wibe of the Project Eternity - They seem to think that it'll be more like The Witcher or "Bioware" over the top style, or then something like Fallout 1 or 2 which were over the top in their own way, and even Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 had pretty exaggerated story/plot.

 

The impression I get from the interviews I've read and especially from the interview with MCA after the Kickstarter that they want to do something what's more like Arcanum or PS:T from the mood-standpoint.

 

It haven't been long since I played Arcanum last time and it was very subdued compared to the more newer games, even when compared to the before mentioned BG2, or even BG1.

Edited October 23, 2012 by jarpie