Unofficial P.E. Relationship/Romance Thread pt.2

[kenup]

Never mind. Damn edits!

Edited October 20, 2012 by kenup

[SunBroSolaire]

Jeez Louise, Obsidan should have put up romances as the $5 million stretch goal.

[Shadeling]

I was just thinking about Avellone quote. Thanks for posting it, Shevek. I don't mind romance in roleplaying games but I'm much more interested in seeing how Avellone will explore the other facets of companion relationships because I've never experienced it being so indepth before. Revenge? Rivalry? Ooo, that excites me! And I agree with Sawyer in that if there's going to be romance, then it needs to be done very well or not at all.

 

 

Vargr Raekr: Could you please tone down the size of those MLP pics? They're obnoxiously large and I find myself more prone to skipping past your posts in order get them off my screen rather than reading what you have to say.

[Merin]

Wow... just, all but that last one? It looks to me like maybe you don't understand what certain terms mean. You really mischaracterized A LOT.

Ok. Merin, even if I accept your points about romances as the best ones on the matter, if you can't see that HereticSaint is just getting aggressive, uses ad hominems all the freaking time, generalizes etc., don't get angry if no one you debate with takes you seriously. He never debates or argues a point. He just attacks the presentation and never argues our points. That's ad hominem.

 

First off - I think most of my "points about romances" are that I enjoy them in games and while I like them in games I can live without them.... I guess that can be the best ones, but okay.

 

----

 

Second - I don't think I've been defending HereticSaint. I guess this last post could be taken as doing such, but let me clarify... I was calling out Minttunator for what he was saying, not defending HereticSaint's points. Here, let me take JUST the first two on Minttunator's list as doing more would be ridiculously long-winded (this will be bad enough) -

 

 

FIRST

 

HereticSaint, meet Strawman:

Here's my thing, I personally enjoy romance. I'm not saying it -HAS- to be in the game, I am saying that there shouldn't be this wall of people going, "OMG YOU WANT ROMANCE LOLOLOLOLOL BIOWARE LOLOLOLOL YOU FAP TO CARTOONS, LOLOLOLOL ETC". I'm saying they shouldn't leave it our BECAUSE of these people.

 

Exaggeration in the paraphrase, but not a straw man. There have been endless posts of "go out and have a real relationship", "you want to wank while watching pixels"

 

You would have to show me the context - so it COULD be a straw man if directed at one person who never said as much, but... here you go on this happening ALOT (random sampling of the last five days in threads about romance) :

 

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1254080 - "romance for some people is the possibility to sodomize every thing in the game. Seriously there is some waifu simulators to fulfill your loneliness, ... just some sorry excuse to get in a virtual character pants because you are too socially awkward ."

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1250125 - "You are squee-laden obsessives with a creepy level of interest in relationships with virtual characters that defy rational behaviour. You despoil every environment you touch. You write bad fan-fiction. You need to stay on BSN."

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1248225 - " the" I WUB MY WAIFU!" crowd decend upon every social media platform and demand more. For gods sake they spent more time making sure you could shack up with people then writing a coherent ending!

You put in party banter and flirts, and they want harems. You put in a peck on the cheek and they want full blown orgy sex scenes.""

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1247170 - "No to virtual masturbation, yes to quality writing. Biodrones go home."

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1242506 - "Absolutely no. You freaks already have your mass-market virtual "relationship" simulators with Bioware games. Start playing japanese dating sims if you need more virtual relationships with nuance and drama and "tasteful" sex.

Virtual **** puppets you can dress up and validate your lonely basement-dwelling existence - hell no."

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1251692 - " boards are being flooded with an excessive amount of BioDrones who think this game is going to be some kind of 3D wet dream ... these dumbasses need to go back to their Dragon Ages"

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1250715 - "This is not a dating simulator. ... But the last thing PE needs is to degenerate into an adolescent vehicle aiming to satisfy lonely people who want their player characters to awkwardly flirt for a few minutes and then totally do it. Forcing romances into the game to tick a bioware created expectation box would be a poor choice. ... I would strongly recommend any one of a thousand creepy Japanese dating "games"."

 

That's not all that's out there. Just the last five days, what I could find with a ten minute search. Now find me an equal number of insults towards RPG Codex or anti-romance people. Not saying it doesn't happen - I'm saying it's ridiculously uneven.

 

 

SECOND

 

Because rape is cool:

But people are so conditioned to find rape such an abhorent crime that its even worse than death and cannibalism and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon, no matter how mature a world they want to develop.

 

He isn't saying that rape is cool - THIS is a straw man. He's saying (accurately) that society is such that rape is a much more taboo subject than murder or cannibalism It clearly is. Can you murder people in Fallout 3? Yes. Can you eat people in Fallout: New Vegas? Yes. Can you rape people in ANY game? One that I know of by controversy, and that game is all but perma-banned everywhere. So, I think saying rape is considered more abhorrent than murder or cannibalism is pretty much a given, at least specifically in video games.

 

To be clear - this is like saying shooting someone is considered worse than punching someone. Both are "wrong", no one is advocating either, but clearly one is a greater crime than the other.

 

----

 

That was much too long, but if I gave like two examples in the first point they'd be dismissed easily.

 

This isn't a "pox on both their houses" issue. There isn't equal culpability. One side is drastically ruder to the other. Does it go both ways? Yes... and any analogy I try to come up with is insulting, so I'll just say that it isn't anywhere even.

 

At the most basic level one side represents the other fairly accurately most of the time (anti-romance people don't want their game ruined by what they consider pointless and poorly done forced in game aspects) while the other side too often falls on libeling the former (bidrones want pixel sex and should get real life relationships.) Not everyone goes that route, but enough do... and they get the "likes" of many others.

 

----

 

kenup (everyone else), don't you wish I had just left it at the original two dozen word response?

Edited October 20, 2012 by Merin

[Malcador]

Eh, the other side seem to be a lot more craven in their insults. Like you, with the "curiosity" that all anti-romance people are from RPGCodex and all the things that comes with that, remarks about not being able to read, etc. It's a forum dynamic, just that one side are tender kids it seems - ignoring people using a forum tool requires a special form of weakness, heh.

 

So when's Merin becoming a moderator, again ?

Edited October 20, 2012 by Malcador

[temporalTemptation]

I agree with a sentiment that seems to be commonplace here; that is, romance is fine but let me explore other forms of relationship too. Let me have a bromance with my fellow fighter, let me be the moral link that keeps the mage in place (or the moral poison that corrupts the paladin), let me be the straight man to the rogue's wisecracking shenanigans, let me be a rival in all things with the resident monk, and let me form a strong (yet platonic) bond with a memeber of the opposite sex, without the game assuming I'm trying to bang them.

[Vargr Raekr]

I find myself compelled to like a brony.

 

It is... un-natural.

I briefly wanted to as well but there's some lines I won't cross.

 

Bronies have many powers that the Codex considers ... unnatural.

 

 

I don't expect everyone to have respect for my other hobbies. That's cool, and I've got a thick skin to it, as I remember a time when being a gamer was even worse for one's social standing than cartoon horses will ever be.

 

But if the folks from the Prestigious Gaming Magazine can almost respect me, then I must have one HELL of a good point. These are guys who wouldn't listen to a Brony warn them that their fingernails were on fire.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Vargr Raekr

[l3loodangel]

Thread pruned a bit. Lets see if we can tone down the personal aggravations before I need to get my hands "dirty" and start singling out individuals for limits on posting capabilities?

 

There should be post limit per topic. People like qloher, Merin, HereticSaint ( whatever is that supposed to mean) are repeating same **** over and over again so it looks as if both sides have arguments.

 

"Only the people I disagree with have repeated their argument, no on else has"

 

And all you points were rebuked at least few times in these countless +500 topics. While your side still ends up repeating same stuff without any regard to anything that has been posted...

Edited October 20, 2012 by l3loodangel

[Shadeling]

Dang. Merin's decidedly concise and well researched can of whoop ass. Very impressive.

[evdk]

Dang. Merin's decidedly concise and well researched can of whoop ass. Very impressive.

Hello, Merin.

[jarpie]

Why is it so bad opposing "modernizations", like quest compass and arrows above NPCs head "I HAVE A QUEST!" or opposing magic map markers like in Skyrim? Or what's so bad opposing small party sizes, opposing cooldowns like in MMOs. When they revealed how exactly the cooldown will work, the complaints quieted down because it wasn't idiotc MMO cooldown.

 

If you don't like those things in games, there's nothing wrong in opposing it. I'm not sure where you see me saying it was wrong for anyone to oppose it.

 

The post you were quoting was showing a rough division of "two opposing forces", which itself was a very over-simplistic look at the dynamics of a customer, or worse fan, base.

 

How do they satisfy the extremes of their "base?" By not catering to either side overtly, doing what they were going to do anyway, and depend on the end product being good enough, and enough of what enough of their base will enjoy, that not directly engaging with the extreme sides won't matter.

 

Unfortunately, like a politician.

 

We from the RPGCodex have seen basicly entire genre been abducted, beaten, tortured, shot back to the head, dissected, pissed and shat on and then finally cremated in the last decade mostly because of so-called "modernizations" and appealing for lowest common denominator - we now have a chance of getting a grand rpg from one of the best RPG developers of all time without publishers meddling.

 

As much as I might dislike certain aspects of more "modern" games (I want turn-based (not real time with pause), six party member parties that the player creates, and I want graphics to be like the year 2000 never happened (cursed NWN and other games moving into "3D")) I accept that mediums change over time. Tastes and trends change. Game design doesn't happen in a vacuum... companies are trying to cater to their audience. Do they misread trends and tastes, see the wrong things in market research and polls? Often, sure, but they try - and when things don't sell, they change their tactics.

 

The sad truth is that FPS and Madden will always outsell cRPGs. Always. And that, for about a decade, MMORPGs were the best selling PC games. You don't have to like this (I don't) but you kind of have to adjust. You can sit on your mountaintop and remain pure, crusty and upset at the world...

 

or you can try and enjoy the best of what exists out there, encouraging the games closer to what you want. I'm sure THIS is what you all believe your are doing, and are trying to do. Or most of you. Benefit of the doubt?

 

We are (sometimes) abrasive because we are passionate about our precious genre and we dont want the game compromised because small subset wants it to be like those other modern rpgs with melodramatic relationship dramas - and what I read from the MCA's interview, the game wont be like that, none of the Obsidian's games have been melodramatic but we still dont want to see the forums filled with people who demands that kind of romances and romances for every possiblity.

 

But a small subset is exactly who your are. What's the Codex's membership levels? Hundreds? Maybe a few thousand? Games have to sell (even for indie titles) tens to hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A few hundred die-hards who wish it was still 1980 (and, again, I'm here - I want that, too, for video game design philosophy) can't be a target audience.

 

Be glad that Obsidian is full of people who at least want to bring back a bunch of lost design mechanics from the early 2000's.

 

That being said I do trust Obsidian to make the best game they can and make it how they want it, and according to MCA's interview it'll be more like PS:T than BG1 and BG2 from the story point-of-view.

 

Not just MCA, but their KS pitch. From BG - exploration and companions. From IWD - tactical combat and dungeon delving. From PS:T - themes and story.

 

Just, you know, I don't think for most who LOVE PS:T a removal of Vancian magic, the addition of cooldowns, or even adding more overt romance to the companions, would have significantly "lessened" their love for the game.

 

Replied to you in here not to derail the topic.

Edited October 20, 2012 by jarpie

[HereticSaint]

Thread pruned a bit. Lets see if we can tone down the personal aggravations before I need to get my hands "dirty" and start singling out individuals for limits on posting capabilities?

 

There should be post limit per topic. People like qloher, Merin, HereticSaint ( whatever is that supposed to mean) are repeating same **** over and over again so it looks as if both sides have arguments.

 

"Only the people I disagree with have repeated their argument, no on else has"

 

And all you points were rebuked at least few times in these countless +500 topics. While your side still ends up repeating same stuff without any regard to anything that has been posted...

 

_______________

 

If the devs are smart, they won't get into the quicksand that is party romances. It screws over the whole game. Here is an interesting quote by Mister Chris Avellone:

 

Are you looking to break any ground in terms of the design mechanics, such as moral choices or relationships? What are you looking to do that isn't generally done?

 

Chris Avellone: There's been a lot of focus with companion mechanics in terms of like "how do I romance this person?" I'd like to think that there are other types of relationships that you can have with a companion, whether it's friendship, rivalry, hatred, or revenge. Romances end up being an easy target, but I think there's a lot more you can do with companion relationships. Also, I think a lot of games have fallen into the hole of the evil choice is always a psychotic option. There's a whole spectrum of other stuff you can do in conversation that I'm looking forward to doing. Sometimes depending on the franchise it does make sense that you have these really extreme morality bars, because that's the nature of the franchise.

With this world I think it's going to be a little bit more subtle. The whole premise of the lore and the magic system is that souls get inherited, and then when you pass away the souls wait for a time and then come back to another body. The question is how much of your own behavior is being governed by your own free will or the influence of the soul inside you and all of its history? I think that can raise some interesting questions for both the player character and the companions.

 

 

Thread pruned a bit. Lets see if we can tone down the personal aggravations before I need to get my hands "dirty" and start singling out individuals for limits on posting capabilities?

 

There should be post limit per topic. People like qloher, Merin, HereticSaint ( whatever is that supposed to mean) are repeating same **** over and over again so it looks as if both sides have arguments.

 

There's been a lot of focus with companion mechanics in terms of like "how do I romance this person?" I'd like to think that there are other types of relationships that you can have with a companion, whether it's friendship, rivalry, hatred, or revenge. Romances end up being an easy target, but I think there's a lot more you can do with companion relationships.

 

http://www.gamesindu...-on-kickstarter

 

You tell em, Chris. Leave the romances in the teen novels and the japanese dating sims.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

 

Also, no one has made a legitimate rebuttal in this thread towards my most recent posts, just misquotes and ad hominem attacks.

[HereticSaint]

Eh, the other side seem to be a lot more craven in their insults. Like you, with the "curiosity" that all anti-romance people are from RPGCodex and all the things that comes with that, remarks about not being able to read, etc. It's a forum dynamic, just that one side are tender kids it seems - ignoring people using a forum tool requires a special form of weakness, heh.

 

So when's Merin becoming a moderator, again ?

 

Hypocrisy abound slinging around the word craven. I'm just not stupid enough to bang my head against a brick wall while people tell me what I did and did not say and what I did and did not mean by it. . You on the other hand are craven in addition to being hypocritcal.

[Shadeling]

Dang. Merin's decidedly concise and well researched can of whoop ass. Very impressive.

Hello, Merin.

 

How odd.

[Malcador]

Hypocrisy abound slinging around the word craven. I'm just not stupid enough to bang my head against a brick wall while people tell me what I did and did not say and what I did and did not mean by it. . You on the other hand are craven in addition to being hypocritcal.

 

I'm being craven how, I don't think I was trying to hide anything. Also wasn't posting about you there, but for Merin's posts it's pretty damn clear when he's trying to be backhanded and snide, not that I'm offended by such things, but if you match that to his outrage over those pretty tame posts it is amusing. As Monte Carlo suggested in one of those posts, you people need to HTFU.

[Minttunator]

At the most basic level one side represents the other fairly accurately most of the time (anti-romance people don't want their game ruined by what they consider pointless and poorly done forced in game aspects)

 

Just one example from the VERY POST YOU QUOTED:

 

Here's my thing, I personally enjoy romance. I'm not saying it -HAS- to be in the game, I am saying that there shouldn't be this wall of people going, "OMG YOU WANT ROMANCE LOLOLOLOLOL BIOWARE LOLOLOLOL YOU FAP TO CARTOONS, LOLOLOLOL ETC". I'm saying they shouldn't leave it our BECAUSE of these people.

 

Fairly accurate representation? Because if you sincerely believe that then there's nothing further to debate here.

[HereticSaint]

Hypocrisy abound slinging around the word craven. I'm just not stupid enough to bang my head against a brick wall while people tell me what I did and did not say and what I did and did not mean by it. . You on the other hand are craven in addition to being hypocritcal.

 

I'm being craven how, I don't think I was trying to hide anything. Also wasn't posting about you there, but for Merin's posts it's pretty damn clear when he's trying to be backhanded and snide, not that I'm offended by such things, but if you match that to his outrage over those pretty tame posts it is amusing. As Monte Carlo suggested in one of those posts, you people need to HTFU.

 

It isn't a matter of being offensive to another person. It's a matter of if that is freely allowed progress can never be made.

 

Which in the end might not matter because they may not care about player feedback at all regarding this point.

 

Oh well, let the party continue.

 

 

At the most basic level one side represents the other fairly accurately most of the time (anti-romance people don't want their game ruined by what they consider pointless and poorly done forced in game aspects)

 

Just one example from the VERY POST YOU QUOTED:

 

Here's my thing, I personally enjoy romance. I'm not saying it -HAS- to be in the game, I am saying that there shouldn't be this wall of people going, "OMG YOU WANT ROMANCE LOLOLOLOLOL BIOWARE LOLOLOLOL YOU FAP TO CARTOONS, LOLOLOLOL ETC". I'm saying they shouldn't leave it our BECAUSE of these people.

 

Fairly accurate representation? Because if you sincerely believe that then there's nothing further to debate here.

 

If by debate, you mean cherry pick what I say, then remove the statements I was responding to and then overstate it for shock value better than any politician has ever done, then yes.

 

The statement about "rape" I don't feel bad about and the two directed towards Mr Furry were far less awful posts than what they were actually responding to.

 

As for the directly quoted one? Oh noes, I exaggerated their position once when they've done it to me fifty-thousand times. At least I did it in a tongue in cheek way where it was obvious I was exaggerating their position. They however try to flat out lie about mine.

Edited October 20, 2012 by HereticSaint

[l3loodangel]

Also, no one has made a legitimate rebuttal in this thread towards my most recent posts, just misquotes and ad hominem attacks.

 

It's good that are the one who decides if rebuttal is legitimate. A question just for the sake of curiosity. How many times those points that you made were rebutted in Obsi romance threads?

Edited October 20, 2012 by l3loodangel

[Merin]

Dang. Merin's decidedly concise and well researched can of whoop ass. Very impressive.

Hello, Merin.

 

How odd.

 

Moderators, I'd like to "report" myself as clearly I must have made two accounts. evdk says so, must be true!

[Jasede]

The only solution is to ban both.

It's the only way to be sure.

[HereticSaint]

Also, no one has made a legitimate rebuttal in this thread towards my most recent posts, just misquotes and ad hominem attacks.

 

It's good that are the one who decides if rebuttal is legitimate. A question just for the sake of curiosity. How many times those points that you made were rebutted in Obsi romance threads?

 

Well, until we have a neutral source you think it's more fair for you to decide that? I'd disagree.

 

Have I had posts countered with legitimate points? Yes. But so have people on both sides of the fence.

 

The difference is I didn't randomly come in and post, "OMG stop saying the same stuff". When people from both sides have been doing that since before I even made my first post on these forums. So it's rather silly to complain about that, especially when I just pointed out an example and I could do that fifty more times if I really wanted to.

[Crusty]

It starts with polite discussion on romance.

 

Then tough, but reasoned debate on romance.

 

Somewhere along the way, people's feelings got hurt and the points being made started to repeat themselves.

 

Despite mod prompting every once in a while, both sides of the debate continue to pot one another and the thread eventually degenerates into accusations of logical fallacies, intense focus on semantics, passive aggressive sniping and a reiteration of points we've all heard before.

 

Welcome, everyone, to the BioWare Social Network.

 

Case in point?

 

Edited October 20, 2012 by Crusty

[Merin]

At the most basic level one side represents the other fairly accurately most of the time (anti-romance people don't want their game ruined by what they consider pointless and poorly done forced in game aspects)

 

Just one example from the VERY POST YOU QUOTED:

 

Here's my thing, I personally enjoy romance. I'm not saying it -HAS- to be in the game, I am saying that there shouldn't be this wall of people going, "OMG YOU WANT ROMANCE LOLOLOLOLOL BIOWARE LOLOLOLOL YOU FAP TO CARTOONS, LOLOLOLOL ETC". I'm saying they shouldn't leave it our BECAUSE of these people.

 

Fairly accurate representation? Because if you sincerely believe that then there's nothing further to debate here.

 

Just a bit above you in the thread here - don't know if you bothered to look at the quotes - http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61768-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread-pt2/page__st__300?do=findComment&comment=1255537

 

Now, my taking all of ten minutes to find over a half dozen examples from the last five days alone doesn't constitute "a wall" necessarily, which is why I called it an "exaggeration"... and no one exactly said "LOLOLOLOLOL BIOWARE LOLOLOLOL YOU FAP TO CARTOONS" hence me calling it a "paraphrase" -

 

but, yes, I'd call what he said there a fairly accurate representation of people saying, oh, "to little disturbing fan-art in this thread to pass as BSN romance thread ... folks around here need to stop just dreaming about a zombie harem and need to start drawing, or at least photo-shopping it" or "This is clearly a BSN thread with BSN moderating standards".

 

No one is constantly bringing up BioWare as a pejorative nor are they casting aspersions on people's perverted romantic tastes. You're right.

[HereticSaint]

It starts with polite discussion on romance.

 

Then tough, but reasoned debate on romance.

 

Somewhere along the way, people's feelings got hurt and the points being made started to repeat themselves.

 

Despite mod prompting every once in a while, both sides of the debate continue to pot one another and the thread eventually degenerates into accusations of logical fallacies, intense focus on semantics, passive aggressive sniping and a reiteration of points we've all heard before.

 

Welcome, everyone, to the BioWare Social Network.

 

I think I love you! We should totally implement a romance about it on this forum.

 

On a more serious note, the meta-debate (though you can't really call it a debate) about who is evil or not (insert insult of choice in place of evil) isn't compelling for me anymore. I bid you all a good day.

Edited October 20, 2012 by HereticSaint

[Andwit25]

It starts with polite discussion on romance.

 

Then tough, but reasoned debate on romance.

 

Somewhere along the way, people's feelings got hurt and the points being made started to repeat themselves.

 

Despite mod prompting every once in a while, both sides of the debate continue to pot one another and the thread eventually degenerates into accusations of logical fallacies, intense focus on semantics, passive aggressive sniping and a reiteration of points we've all heard before.

 

Welcome, everyone, to the BioWare Social Network.

Well in that case round about page 30 one team will give up. And the rest of the thread will be filled with fan-art of shirtless male NPCs.

(Must remember to bookmark this thread in case any of the fan-art turns out to be hot)

Edited October 20, 2012 by Andwit25