[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[ComradeGoby]

Brian Fargo said it pretty good, (I am paraphrasing) its a mature game, when created a mature game, it should be like going to HBO/cinemax/showtime (dexter, game of thrones, the wire, the sapronos, rome..etc), NOT some disney or standard channel PC stuff.

 

False dichotomy. You can be mature while avoiding sexism. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Not insulting women doesn't turn something into banal Disney or "standard channel" fare. Something that is sexist might yet in other ways be mature, but I would argue that the sexism itself is actually immature. War and Peace would not have been more "mature" had Tolstoy lovingly dwelled for paragraph after paragraph on the nether regions of his countess and princess characters. Quite the opposite, I should say.

 

Rape.

 

It happened alot. It still happens a lot.

 

But nobody ever wants in games that becasue somehow it would be "immature" even though it's a big part of how the human species thrived.

 

Feminists need to stop pretending they are on some moral crusade. You want the same power fantasy stuff that men want only in a female context.

 

For men that is usually chicks and violence; women I dunno romances and dresses?

Edited October 20, 2012 by ComradeGoby

[UncleBourbon]

Fallout, especially the more recent renditions, had all-but-explicit rape. All those bloody mattresses, sometimes with tied up corpses, or body parts? Or how about the elementary school near vault 101 in Fallout 3? But yeah, it isn't touched on too much. BG2 still has some people convinced that Irenicus raped Imoen, which I could see as plausable. A mixing of gender rolls can be done well, and so long as consistancy is maintained, it can add to the entertainment. High levels of nudity and undress, in a tropical setting, could be feasible, or perhaps in some manner of arid setting, though in the tropical setting bacteria and infection would be an issue, and in an arid setting it would be the sand and sun.

 

That said, if it is a society that treats topplessness of men and women equally, it would be an alright implmentation and logical, so long as not everyone is a sex bomb. Unless of course, an aesthetics-based holocaust occured, weeding out any undesirably appearing individuals.

[Ieo]

Edit: Oh, and by the way, I think Disney is much much worse than any of those mature examples, Game of Thrones or whatever. The latter feature very strong female characters, while Disney usually feeds the kids with female rolemodels I want to vomit on.

 

I agree with you there, because socialization into gender roles begins from birth.

 

 

Also, the primary underlying requirement for female Disney main characters is that they lack "purpose" or "value" or are "incomplete" as heroines until they're matched with a male partner. The opposite isn't true for boy films. I think only Pixar's recent Brave broke the pattern. I facepalm about how many women still place ridiculous value on the wedding day but not the future beyond--I have this vague memory about writing a post on how romance in the media alters perceptions of what's reasonable in partner behavior, one reason why I personally hate the genre.

 

Edit: Oh, that was probably off-topic a bit.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Ieo

[Gurkog]

I think Pixar is the only studio that does great animated films. Way better than Disney trash.

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

I think Pixar is the only studio that does great animated films. Way better than Disney trash.

Your view of the animation industry seems to be very limited(and very US-based).

[RaccoonTOF]

I think Pixar is the only studio that does great animated films. Way better than Disney trash.

 

o.O? Pixar is a division of Disney, has been since 2005 or 2006...

[Sykid]

Yes, curse you Disney for ruining the lives of women by animating classic fairy tales that are hundreds of years old...

[UncleBourbon]

Yes, curse you Disney for ruining the lives of women by animating classic fairy tales that are hundreds of years old...

And for redacting most of the cruel, dark parts of said tales and altering the morals of the stories to be stories of Walt's dreamland.

[Jasede]

Yes, Pixar is great if you like seeing the same movie over and over again because that's all they do. They have one formula and repeat it over and over. Their movies are designed by a spread-sheet in an industrial process, with no soul.

 

The most condemning thing about them is that they put on a veneer of soul; an illusion of depth. But it's really all just a cold and calculated marketing ploy. There's no actual substance, no actual heart- it's all simulacrum.

 

Up! should have ended after the first ten minutes.

[Orogun01]

This where extremist feminists fail, they are getting into a pissing contest with men and making a mess about. There is nothing wrong with gender roles or role reversal and I particularly dislike that most arguments seem to complain about fictional pieces of work. Not only is the negative focus of their rhetoric hurting them, it's quite possibly blinding them (and the world) to the myriad of positive examples shown through history.

 

Nitpicking at fictional work instead of providing with an alternative does not progress make.

[Chabneruk]

One of the problems with the thread and the direction it is taking I think is largely due to the merging of threads and inclusion of "feminism" in the title. Especially because many people have not actually gone and read all of the posts here and are instead just skimming a page or two and then stating their knee-jerk reactions to the word "feminism".

 

I still don't understand why the operator did this, seeing as though the feminism-thread was clearly trolling ala "can we have feminism in the game to laugh about?" and didn't add anything useful to the discussion. Before that, there were a few negative comments as well, mostly regarding "boobplate", because these people jumped into the thread, got stuck on the word after reading three posts and then blurted out some uncontrolled mix of rage and fear of being deprived of "sexy" in the game.

 

But that was okay, because between these (largely ignored) posts there was a real interesting discussion going on about different views on beauty during the ages, cultural differences, the possibility of interesting and attractive female characters who do not have to be physically perfect or half-naked and so on.

 

Now we get this:

 

Rape.

It happened alot. It still happens a lot.

But nobody ever wants in games that becasue somehow it would be "immature" even though it's a big part of how the human species thrived.

Feminists need to stop pretending they are on some moral crusade. You want the same power fantasy stuff that men want only in a female context.

For men that is usually chicks and violence; women I dunno romances and dresses?

 

This is clearly not an attempt to discuss rape in violence games. This is pure and quite primitive provocation. Ironically its the same people who do this (and I am not talking about THIS poster for he only posted once. He is just an example) who demand the thread closed, calling others "white knights" and "feminists" while generally not adding to the discussion.

 

And yeah, I am explaining trolling right here. Stupid me

 

But back to the discussion... which is about disney now, I guess?

 

Yes, curse you Disney for ruining the lives of women by animating classic fairy tales that are hundreds of years old...

And for redacting most of the cruel, dark parts of said tales and altering the morals of the stories to be stories of Walt's dreamland.

 

I did not see the stepmother dancing to death in burning shoes in Snow White, nor was Sleeping Beauty gifted with two babies by the prince while sleeping...

 

Disney characters are a good way to show female characters that are supposedly strong while clinging desperately to a role model that is defined by male superiority, I guess. I mean, Disney kinda screamed it out to the world with their princess line. But in Project Eternity such a character might actually work, if deconstructed, much like Sansa Stark in ASoIaF. A character who not only lives that role but actively wants it, despite being quite oppressed in it, is in for a bad surprise sooner or later - and can react either with shutting their eyes from reality (Sansa for a long while) or starting to rebel against it.

 

But you would have to grow up quite protected to get there, at least in a society where humans are humans.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Chabneruk

[Sykid]

If you don't want to be allowed to discuss games, only consume/not consume, then why are you even here?

 

Because this is a place to discuss Project Eternity, not a forum for people to launch their crusades against the evils of the patriarchal game industry or try and change people's "definition of beauty." This thread has already stopped being about "Women, Feminism, etc. in PE" and become "Women, Feminism, etc." because any accusations of sexism leveled at Obsidian can be swiftly refuted by the evidence of their games.

 

 

I mean the vanilla game as shipped. Mods don't change the shipped game.

 

Uh, that's exactly what they do.

 

 

Characters are running around in their underwear to give teenage boys boners.

 

Your presumptuousness is staggering.

 

You're getting bent out of shape over minutiae. You can't step back from your preoccupation with "frills" "lace" - not that there are any, it's just a flat black texture - to see the entire point of the scene, in the context of the game. There is supposed to be sexual tension between the Handmaiden and the Exile, and that is supposed to be expressed through combat, as all relationships are in Echani culture. This ties in to the Handmaidens' ignorance of Atris' fall, Atris' betrayal, the Exile's defiance of Kreia, and Brianna's identity as an individual and a Jedi.

 

This isn't just some stuff they threw in for "boners" (wow, way to insult male players and the KOTOR2 writers in the same sentence, on Obsidian's own boards no less) so if you're going to take swipes at Chris Avellone & co maybe you should read up on the writing he did on the Echani and play through the restored version of the game without your assumptions of the writer's intent. If you still think it's all about the practicality of the combat bra then I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely.

 

But it raises the question... If the Obsidian writers really do put in underwear in games just to titillate those horny (shame on you, male sexuality!) boys, why have it only on one character? And why have it be covered in armor or robes that have stat benefits? And why make Handmaiden's non-underwear clothing so important to her story?

Edited October 20, 2012 by Sykid

[ComradeGoby]

Disney characters are a good way to show female characters that are supposedly strong while clinging desperately to a role model that is defined by male superiority, I guess. I mean, Disney kinda screamed it out to the world with their princess line. But in Project Eternity such a character might actually work, if deconstructed, much like Sansa Stark in ASoIaF. A character who not only lives that role but actively wants it, despite being quite oppressed in it, is in for a bad surprise sooner or later - and can react either with shutting their eyes from reality (Sansa for a long while) or starting to rebel against it.

 

But you would have to grow up quite protected to get there, at least in a society where humans are humans.

 

That is real life though.

 

It's a movie power fantasy that people are equal.

 

Look at all the "tough chicks" that are extremely hot and weigh 90lbs taking down 250lb men. Not happening in hand to hand combat if both parties are trained (and most of the time they are). Now if it's some ugly Breinne (or Cademugund it looks like) type chick then that's fine.

 

In ASoIaF only chicks like Breinne could be "empowered in the male way", female characters have to survive with cunning. It's jsut biology that women will never be completley equal to men.

 

And when they can be equal humanity itself would be so far advanced it wouldn't even be worth being called humanity (posthumans or transhumans(not trannys))

[Furiku]

Well, this thread has gone down the drain, at least you people dropped your pretenses about unrealistic armors and showed what you actually want, e.g. impose changes on the game based on your sociopolitical beliefs, like has been done several times before this year alone by developers that don't seem to get that it's a vocal minority and a small part of their consumer base *demanding* all this:

 

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/violence-against-women-controversy-has-altered-god-of-war-development/099926

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/8/17/3250005/hitman-absolutions-gun-toting-nuns-level-changed-after-trailer

https://www.change.org/petitions/crystal-dynamics-remove-the-attempted-rape-scene-storyline-from-2013-tomb-raider

 

At least there are some developers pushing back:

Heck, you even tried to change DoA-****ing-5, as if after making it a "wholesome" title feminists will storm the shops and buy a fighting game en masse: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/178358/Team_Ninja_learns_to_fear_its_fans.php

 

At least be honest about it and drop the pretenses from the start.

[Margaretha]

Errm.. Feminism (= wanting equality) is not a "belief", not even a "sociopolitical belief". I'm surely glad the topic of sexism in videogames is more and more heard. Things could change, and it's good. I'm actually glad when I read people saying they are "fed up" with it.

[UncleBourbon]

Errm.. Feminism (= wanting equality) is not a "belief", not even a "sociopolitical belief". I'm surely glad the topic of sexism in videogames is more and more heard. Things could change, and it's good. I'm actually glad when I read people saying they are "fed up" with it.

 

The issue, I think, is at what "equality" means - equal opportunities, or equal outcomes. Additionally, it seems there are some feminists, who, indeed, strive for as sort of equality, but others that want something akin to social reparations - the oppression of men to make up for the decades of women being treated as second class citizens, if that. Like this thread: is it really a matter of equality when it comes down to how women are portrayed in video games? Maybe if the media supposed it presented some view of the real world, and was proposing the discrimination/enslavement/disnefranchisement of women, I could see it, but a completely fictional piece? *braces for impact*

[Moonlight Butterfly]

You want the same power fantasy stuff that men want only in a female context.

 

For men that is usually chicks and violence; women I dunno romances and dresses?

 

Did you seriously just write that.... /facepalm. SO MUCH FACEPALM.

 

We want to be able to be heroes just like male protagonists that is why *clears throat* Hawke, Shepard, Dovahkiin, Courier Six and The Lone Wandererare extremely popular with women. Do you know why? Because we get to do what the male protagonists do without our character being a sex doll.

 

I mean remember that dev who, when asked if their would be female characters in his game, said

'But how would we make them sexy' That is the bullet that gender swapped female characters dodge and they are much better for it. Hell sometimes I don't even care what other women look like in the game as long as the playable character isn't a pander fest.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[UncleBourbon]

I think there is also an issue there, Moonlight Butterfly. If you make all NPCs treat the character exactly the same, regardless of gender (aside from titles and how they address you), it might make the world seem a bit less organic. After all, even in-setting there are likely to be bigots and chauvinists, and if they go around badmouthing women to a male PC, I imagine it would be a "wtf?" moment if you talk to them as a female character and can't bring it up. Admittedly, I think the male character should be able to as well, but said NPC should react to the player character differently based upon gender.

 

Of course, this is really me just contesting the assertion that female gamers want female player characters to be just like male player characters. The issue is that in the history of mankind, whenever something was posited as "different but equal," it has been anything but.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I think there is also an issue there, Moonlight Butterfly. If you make all NPCs treat the character exactly the same, regardless of gender (aside from titles and how they address you), it might make the world seem a bit less organic. After all, even in-setting there are likely to be bigots and chauvinists, and if they go around badmouthing women to a male PC, I imagine it would be a "wtf?" moment if you talk to them as a female character and can't bring it up. Admittedly, I think the male character should be able to as well, but said NPC should react to the player character differently based upon gender.

 

Of course, this is really me just contesting the assertion that female gamers want female player characters to be just like male player characters. The issue is that in the history of mankind, whenever something was posited as "different but equal," it has been anything but.

 

We don't want them to be 'just like' male characters but we want to do the same things as a male character ie. Kill Deathclaws, Reapers and Dragons. No one is trying to turn video games into Twilight (ugh) like that guy I quoted was suggesting. I personally hate romance and dresses....

 

There are plenty of instances in those games where your sex is mentioned. Black Widow checks for example. I just really don't understand this need for men to have women portrayed as the bitches of every fantasy universe. When we have to play a over sexualised female character it's like a guy being forced to play as Edward or Jacob from Twilight, let that sink in.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[RaccoonTOF]

Like this thread: is it really a matter of equality when it comes down to how women are portrayed in video games? Maybe if the media supposed it presented some view of the real world, and was proposing the discrimination/enslavement/disnefranchisement of women, I could see it, but a completely fictional piece? *braces for impact*

 

For me at least my views presented in this thread are not so much a matter of "equality" or comparisons between the real world and the proposed game world, but rather, internal consistency within whatever world is presented. I've got no real issue if the game world presents a vastly unequal society, whether that be through gender, race, education, or whatever other means - so long as it is consistent and reasonable. The issues I have stem from narrative descriptions not matching the visual depictions (such as my mention of FFG above), unrealistic splits in the "suspension of disbelief" for such things as stereotypical female armor vs male armor providing the same level of "defense", and the stereotype of...well...stereotypes - the lack of anything being truly "average" even as presented in the world itself, but rather everything being an extreme of one form or another.

[BSoda]

I think there is also an issue there, Moonlight Butterfly. If you make all NPCs treat the character exactly the same, regardless of gender (aside from titles and how they address you), it might make the world seem a bit less organic. After all, even in-setting there are likely to be bigots and chauvinists, and if they go around badmouthing women to a male PC, I imagine it would be a "wtf?" moment if you talk to them as a female character and can't bring it up. Admittedly, I think the male character should be able to as well, but said NPC should react to the player character differently based upon gender.

 

Of course, this is really me just contesting the assertion that female gamers want female player characters to be just like male player characters. The issue is that in the history of mankind, whenever something was posited as "different but equal," it has been anything but.

This. I remember some Bioware dev being especially proud that their female / male Shephard is virtually the same (aside from how the are addressed in the game). I always thought this was more a sign of laziness than anything else on their part.

[Margaretha]

The issue, I think, is at what "equality" means - equal opportunities, or equal outcomes. Additionally, it seems there are some feminists, who, indeed, strive for as sort of equality, but others that want something akin to social reparations - the oppression of men to make up for the decades of women being treated as second class citizens, if that. Like this thread: is it really a matter of equality when it comes down to how women are portrayed in video games? Maybe if the media supposed it presented some view of the real world, and was proposing the discrimination/enslavement/disnefranchisement of women, I could see it, but a completely fictional piece? *braces for impact*

The issue, I think is not an issue. Not being a feminist means you want to keep or reinforce inequalities. If "some feminists" say poor things, I don't really care, they are only a handful, when people openly sexists and sexists who "believe" they are not sexists (privileges denial?) are legion.

 

As far as videogames are concerned (and I'm not too worried about Project: Eternity), I'm looking forward to playing games that do not seem to have been made for sexist-white-straight-horny-male teenagers (God of War certainly shines here). What about games made for the others? Oops I meant: for everybody?

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Disney characters are a good way to show female characters that are supposedly strong while clinging desperately to a role model that is defined by male superiority, I guess. I mean, Disney kinda screamed it out to the world with their princess line. But in Project Eternity such a character might actually work, if deconstructed, much like Sansa Stark in ASoIaF. A character who not only lives that role but actively wants it, despite being quite oppressed in it, is in for a bad surprise sooner or later - and can react either with shutting their eyes from reality (Sansa for a long while) or starting to rebel against it.

 

But you would have to grow up quite protected to get there, at least in a society where humans are humans.

 

That is real life though.

 

It's a movie power fantasy that people are equal.

 

Look at all the "tough chicks" that are extremely hot and weigh 90lbs taking down 250lb men. Not happening in hand to hand combat if both parties are trained (and most of the time they are). Now if it's some ugly Breinne (or Cademugund it looks like) type chick then that's fine.

 

In ASoIaF only chicks like Breinne could be "empowered in the male way", female characters have to survive with cunning. It's jsut biology that women will never be completley equal to men.

 

And when they can be equal humanity itself would be so far advanced it wouldn't even be worth being called humanity (posthumans or transhumans(not trannys))

 

I bet there are plenty of women who could beat the crap out of you. People should be judged on their own merits not by their gender.

 

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Furiku]

Errm.. Feminism (= wanting equality) is not a "belief", not even a "sociopolitical belief". I'm surely glad the topic of sexism in videogames is more and more heard. Things could change, and it's good. I'm actually glad when I read people saying they are "fed up" with it.

 

Feminism has long stopped being about equality and started being about exerting influence over others and whatever the hell this is:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEJfN-jiS4

www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Xel_Ig2Ac

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I think there is also an issue there, Moonlight Butterfly. If you make all NPCs treat the character exactly the same, regardless of gender (aside from titles and how they address you), it might make the world seem a bit less organic. After all, even in-setting there are likely to be bigots and chauvinists, and if they go around badmouthing women to a male PC, I imagine it would be a "wtf?" moment if you talk to them as a female character and can't bring it up. Admittedly, I think the male character should be able to as well, but said NPC should react to the player character differently based upon gender.

 

Of course, this is really me just contesting the assertion that female gamers want female player characters to be just like male player characters. The issue is that in the history of mankind, whenever something was posited as "different but equal," it has been anything but.

This. I remember some Bioware dev being especially proud that their female / male Shephard is virtually the same (aside from how the are addressed in the game). I always thought this was more a sign of laziness than anything else on their part.

 

Well that 'laziness' is a nice relief for women who want their female protagonist to be as heroic and non sexualised as a male one.

 

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that at the moment characters like FemShep are the closest thing to a decent female protagonist that we have and that's why they are popular.

Let me try and put it a different way, sure the gaming industry can do better as you very rightly pointed out, but at the moment those are the characters that are popular with women because we don't have much else. If we want to be a hero FemShep gives us that chance without the extra baggage of being a character whose primary feature is 'she is a woman' and isn't there to pander to men.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly