[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[LadyCrimson]

at that Avengers pic.

 

Something I noticed a long long time ago, is the difference in films re: how they will film women vs. men in motion. Even when fully clothed in 'boring' pants and t-shirts. Camera angles, distance range, what the camera's center of focus may be. Ladders are an obvious example, but there's other such situations. While this doesn't bother me at all personally, it is rather amusing, because once you notice it, you can't help but notice it all the time forever more.

 

And no, I don't mean all films/shows/directors are like that. But it's common enough to observe pretty frequently.

 

There is plenty of over-idealized male stereotypes in entertainment, some of which is just as silly as the female stuff, but the ... cultural? ... association focus often does tend to be different, like that Avengers pic is trying to point out I think. For which I'm grateful. I may be female, but I have no desire to see a bunch of guys gratuitously running around in nothing but jockstraps anymore than I want to see women running around in thong underwear for a costume. Except, sometimes, for comedy.

[Joukehainen]

"My sexual fantasy involves a woman exposing herself in public, please put it in your game, I'm going to make up stories to justify it because I am too embarrassed to admit my sexual motives. See? I made a character like that in a TT RPG so it's valid!" Is not a legitimate argument in favor of your proposition.

 

/thread.

[UncleBourbon]

I'm not supposing they should, I simply don't see the moral sort of structure encouraging prudishness as being in place. Climate could influence dress code, but we're not informed as to the climate of the Aedyr kingdom, from what I can tell. And it was my character using her strengths to her benefit, as most people do when faced with fights to the death. I'm saying there should be a consistant sort of pattern of dress for each culture in game, and it should be rooted in game, neither in real-world concepts of modesty or sex appeal.

Edited October 20, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[temporalTemptation]

I'm merely stating that in a realistic setting, these types of people are likely to exist and that it's not unreasonable for some people to expect to see such people in the game. I'll concede entirely that it would be unreasonable to demand this. But to simply point out that, hey, sometimes games kinda look sexist and I really hope this one isn't... Please, tell me, where's the harm in that?

Read what you wrote again. You are clearly under the notion that "fanservice" have precedence over tone and style.

"If people ask for ladies in swimsuits, they should be allowed to get them."

No they should not, the writers vision should be the basis of characters and their behaviour/physique, not the "fans" preferences. If a character is fat for example it should be because it fits his character and not any other reason.

 

I see the problem now. I apologise for the ambiguity. That entire paragraph, was more of a thinking-out-loud. It was my way of acknowledging that there are many views on possible ways of dealing with the issue I was talking about. I think I agree with you on these things, but maybe not for quite the same reasons. You seem to imply that the vision of the writer should come above all else (please correct me if I'm wrong there). However the reason why I more-or-less agree with what you said (at least the bit about a character should be fat because it fits his character and no other reason) is that I like a developed and self-consistent setting. I don't like tropes thrown in just for the sake of having them. So whether a fat character, or a skinny one wearing barely anything, I'd like it to make some degree of rational sense within the story.

[Joukehainen]

I'm not supposing they should, I simply don't see the moral sort of structure encouraging prudishness as being in place. Climate could influence dress code, but we're not informed as to the climate of the Aedyr kingdom, from what I can tell. And it was my character using her strengths to her benefit, as most people do when faced with fights to the death. I'm saying there should be a consistant sort of pattern of dress for each culture in game, and it should be rooted in game, neither in real-world concepts of modesty or sex appeal.

 

It has little to do with morality. I have absolutely nothing against things like prostitution, brothels, sex scenes, sexual explicit dialogue, etc etc being in the game. Or in anything. Those elements are a part of life, and if handled with maturity can provide insight and add depth and meaning to the diegesis of a game/movie/book world.

 

In the case of a female bard using her sexuality as a tool, well, it's the femme fatale stereotype popularized by noir, and it's pretty two dimensional and overdone by now, imo; and very often used as a weak excuse used by filmmakers, devs etc to have a stereotypical woman character functioning only as eyecandy, and to be able to defend themselves by saying "but look, she's kicking ass and killing men! So empowering for women!"

 

There's an awesome comic for this whole bikinimail argument by Hark, a vagrant. It's a large format, so I'll put it in a spoiler:

 

 

 

 

On that note, though, no, men aren't so stupid as to be completely distracted by a naked or scantily clad woman that they would be distracted by this in combat, where your life is at stake. Just, no. If that were the case, we'd never have had wars to begin with. Ask anyone whose been in real combat situations. (And yes, I know it's a game, but if we're going to be arguing about doctrines of the Catholic Church IRL, might as well.)

[Ieo]

What if the male Avengers all posed like the female one?

 

I just wanted you to know that I had refreshed that page of the thread and the first thing I see is the Hulk grabbing is own ass. Thanks. ಠ_ಠ

 

....ಠ_ಠ

 

Or women that subscribe to discrimination. Power structures are held in place by more than just the dominant group, so of course it's not as though men = bad and women = good, or white = bad and black = good, or straight = bad and gay = good, etc etc.

 

Oh boy, that's a big one. There were a significant number of women in the U.S. who were against suffrage. There were slaves who were against emancipation. And while on the surface it seems completely illogical, there's a lot going on sociologically and psychologically. Just one reason why cultural change is slow. (Heck, one of the most misogynistic people I know is a woman.)

 

To rephrase a line from my favorite webcomic, Digger, "I have no more love of pointless ritual than you do, but I fear for the loss of our traditions. After all, without tradition, what protection do any of my siblings and I have except the good will of (men)?"

 

That's a sad thought.

 

P.S.: Still not forgiving you for the Hulk ass.

[UncleBourbon]

I'm not saying completely distracted, but a small distraction bonus to everyone (not all because of some sexual fantasy, some might just be wondering what the hell the woman is doing), iirc it was something like a one point adjustment to attack rolls against her. I'm not saying a moral issue on your end, but the societal values in game might prohibt such dress, or not, depending on how much of an anti-vanity sort of attitude was taken. In-game consistancy is what I think we can all agree on, but what sort of culture they have if another.

 

My point was that a character with the strength of physical beauty and years of seductive technique development should be able to use that to his/her advantage, but likewise a character who values modesty, or simply putting a layer of sheet or metal between them and a blade, should also do so logically, not try to do both and somehow achieve full effectiveness in both - I think a suit of armor can only be flattering to a certain degree.

Another example of this sort of non-conventional small bonus would be a character using improvised weapon exclusively when fighting someone with some rigid military learning, or for that matter the dirty fighting rogue versus the upright school-taught fighter.

 

As to character design: I never claimed it was original. But it wasn't meant to be, and just because an idea is used frequently shouldn't prevent it from being used in the future. The character grew organically from there, gradually increasing her charm like abilities in magic, and equipping more and more armor as it became necessary for survival. Then she became a bloody paste when the party ran into some ogres, A counterpoint to this character was another in the party - the archetypical pretty boy, a charming paladin who seduced at least one woman in every town and worshipped a god of love. In both cases, there were several incidents where we broke from the archetype; my bard remained celibate after the death of her king, and was dedicated to vengence.

[oldhomehaibane]

On that note, though, no, men aren't so stupid as to be completely distracted by a naked or scantily clad woman that they would be distracted by this in combat, where your life is at stake. Just, no.

 

There's a sequel to that Hark! A Vagrant comic that hilariously shows how this would actually play out:

 

 

 

 

 

[Joukehainen]

UncleBourbon: Yeah, I do getcha, and I do agree that the clothing should logically reflect the climate and culture of the in-game worlds. I was more discussing the non-diegetic implications, like for example the "Strong Female Characters" in the comic that try to justify the creator's choice of a bullet bra with some made up bs lore that's clearly just a weak front.

 

Also, something we should keep in mind, is that some cultures in the world have, for example, topless women and men. This is just normal for those cultures, like a topless man at the beach is normal for us. In southern Europe it's also a norm to have women topless at the beach. The men that grew up in that culture don't go around drooling with massive boners, of course, because it's normalized to them. Western society tends to be much more fetishistic and objectifying of nudity, especially female nudity, where even breast-feeding in public is seen as some sort of sexual offence, etc.

[UncleBourbon]

Exactly - I think I didn't explain my examples well in that regard. I think that would be an interesting setting, granted it is there for more than just the sake of inclusion. I htink this thread has gone around this sort of point for a bit, heh.

[D3xter]

Of course, if you think that all forms of offence are meaningless, that's a different issue; one I'd be willing to explore with you, if you'd let me. However, if that's what you truly believe, I request that you be clear about it.

I am a strong supporter of anything (as long as it isn't illegal) being able to be thematized, no matter if and how many people it'll offend and it being a choice of the makers and not self-imposed censorship on behalf of whatever group of people. I'd rather not "explore" anything with you though, thank you.

 

I feel like all I'm doing is re-quoting, because new people keep jumping in with the very same circular logic, false equivalences and groundless accusations without actually reading all the pages which contain multiple thorough responses to most of these knee-jerk reactions.

Funny, I thought I actually commented on that before, circular logic indeed: http://forums.obsidi...80#entry1253013

 

That was sort of cherry-picking, D3xter, because the Castanic males in TERA are the only males that have outfits close to the level of absurdity and oversexualization that the females have. And there certainly ain't no male-equivalent of the lollis in TERA. I still remember the outrage it caused when those were censored' in the NA/European release. But yeah, it's a start. Can go here for full renders for each race/gender.

A comic comes to mind:

What if the male Avengers all posed like the female one?

I'm not sure what your first point is other than it somehow being a contest about "how sexualized" certain parts of a game can be, I haven't even played TERA but the point is that everything in that game is "oversexualized", all armors look silly and ornated and one of their bosses is apparently a giant, female... thing opening its head like a predator and shooting lasers out of its head: http://www.rockpaper...as-argon-queen/

And that you apparently think that other cultures, including Japan and Korea should rather obey by specific western sensibilities to appease you and likeminded individuals.

 

As for your second point, what if?

There are a many repeating movie cover clichés that appear time and again, I'm not sure how this is exactly fitting the conversation though: http://www.themost10...poster-cliches/

 

The only thing off is that your funny-poster is concentrating on rather atypical male "attractive" characteristics, but it's not like certain male cast members haven't been chosen for their sex appeal: http://cdn.stronglif...sworth-thor.jpg

 

It's funny, seeing you pick "Black Widow" for that representation though, since the Avengers movie was directed by Joss Whedon, who is known as rather outspoken about certain issues you seem to care so deeply about and she appears in several dozen of those "empowered women" lists throughout in prominent articles: http://www.rowthree....empowered-girl/

http://www.examiner....own-stereotypes

 

Huh, I guess even some feminists don't agree and have the same positions on everything, weren't there even like different camps, which are often forgotten about in favor of the "sex-negative" puritan ones you people seem to adore?

Rather ignore some of the other ones? http://blogs.broward...e_exxxotica.php

And yes, actually, it is rather unthinkable. If a woman in Renaissance Europe wore an early 1900s bathing suit in public (the woolen, extremely modest in comparison to today's swimwear kind,) she would be ill-regarded and her reputation would be ruined if she wasn't already known to be a prostitute. Even then it would be unacceptable, intolerable and result in severe reactions from the community.

Oh look, the realism-defense, do tell what else women couldn't and wouldn't be able to do in a "realistic" middle-ages setting and how the game would likely play for female characters.

 

Other than that I see this is down to posting oh-so-hilarious opinion pieces and pictures from feminist blogs as proof of something other than these peoples opinions.

Edited October 20, 2012 by D3xter

[Badmojo]

*sigh* this thread is nothing but a toxic pit that is distracting from actual game discussion and should have been moved to another forum a while back, because it is preventing actual real game discussion to commence.. Oh well, when in rome.

 

 

I think this push for political correctness by white knights and femenists are going to make the game less fun. When I play a game I do not want real world politics in it at all. I want to have FUN, I do not want to play some political correct groups wet dream game, I want to play a game where politics are thrown out the window. It is why I LOVE cd projekt, they do not care about politics, they create games that THEY want to play and is fun. The same group trying to shove there ideology here also tried to shove it down CDP's forums as well when the witcher 2 was created. I am so glad they did not listen and shudder at what the game would have been like if they did. Brian Fargo said it pretty good, (I am paraphrasing) its a mature game, when created a mature game, it should be like going to HBO/cinemax/showtime (dexter, game of thrones, the wire, the sapronos, rome..etc), NOT some disney or standard channel PC stuff.

[Roxane]

You know, I'd love to see variety in women model design. I'd like to see some athletic woman with a barely curvy shape, along with one who got some curves, one who is average, another one who is so ugly that she looks good (if the latter makes senses).

 

My main complain with videogames is that all women look alike. Not everyone of us is 5'7", we D size cups while being a size 0. And you know what? Different is beautiful and it makes the workd spicy on top of that.

[UncleBourbon]

You know, I'd love to see variety in women model design. I'd like to see some athletic woman with a barely curvy shape, along with one who got some curves, one who is average, another one who is so ugly that she looks good (if the latter makes senses).

 

My main complain with videogames is that all women look alike. Not everyone of us is 5'7", we D size cups while being a size 0. And you know what? Different is beautiful and it makes the workd spicy on top of that.

 

This is essentially the thing the original poster was discussing, all those pages ago. There are a couple of gamebryo mods - intended for uses of perverse entertainment with nude models - that basically take all npcs, and an assortment of different body meshes and shapes, and then randomly, or pseudo-randomly, assigns them. It can add a lot of uniqueness to NPCs, but it is a lot of work due to levels of detail and such. On the infinity engine, as an isometric 2D game, model detail isn't nearly as important in my book as variances in portrait art and cutscenes/information slides.

[oldhomehaibane]

Brian Fargo said it pretty good, (I am paraphrasing) its a mature game, when created a mature game, it should be like going to HBO/cinemax/showtime (dexter, game of thrones, the wire, the sapronos, rome..etc), NOT some disney or standard channel PC stuff.

 

False dichotomy. You can be mature while avoiding sexism. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Not insulting women doesn't turn something into banal Disney or "standard channel" fare. Something that is sexist might yet in other ways be mature, but I would argue that the sexism itself is actually immature. War and Peace would not have been more "mature" had Tolstoy lovingly dwelled for paragraph after paragraph on the nether regions of his countess and princess characters. Quite the opposite, I should say.

[casa]

*sigh* this thread is nothing but a toxic pit that is distracting from actual game discussion and should have been moved to another forum a while back, because it is preventing actual real game discussion to commence.. Oh well, when in rome.

 

 

I think this push for political correctness by white knights and femenists are going to make the game less fun. When I play a game I do not want real world politics in it at all. I want to have FUN, I do not want to play some political correct groups wet dream game, I want to play a game where politics are thrown out the window. It is why I LOVE cd projekt, they do not care about politics, they create games that THEY want to play and is fun. The same group trying to shove there ideology here also tried to shove it down CDP's forums as well when the witcher 2 was created. I am so glad they did not listen and shudder at what the game would have been like if they did. Brian Fargo said it pretty good, (I am paraphrasing) its a mature game, when created a mature game, it should be like going to HBO/cinemax/showtime (dexter, game of thrones, the wire, the sapronos, rome..etc), NOT some disney or standard channel PC stuff.

 

Another circle... I think the "white knights" agreed pages ago on the Witcher being a rather good game (if it wasn't for the silly cards in Witcher 1), because the Witcher does NOT put Triss into a chainmail bikini and lets every female NPC run around like a harlot. As I said long ago, I like sexism, racism, un-PC things in a game if it's actually part of the setting and storyline and helps the immersion. Triss is one of the strongest and most memorable female characters from a game I know.

Why don't you guys just get that this isn't a fight for female liberation and turning every game into a Bioware-like "everyone's equal and bi and whatnot" setting, but simply a discussion about ridiculous outfits and sexism that isn't in the storyline but in the art design that caters to the dumbest sort of male virgins that would also shout "Green shirt girl, go shirtless" in a livestream chat?

 

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, I think Disney is much much worse than any of those mature examples, Game of Thrones or whatever. The latter feature very strong female characters, while Disney usually feeds the kids with female rolemodels I want to vomit on.

Edited October 20, 2012 by casa

[Badmojo]

Brian Fargo said it pretty good, (I am paraphrasing) its a mature game, when created a mature game, it should be like going to HBO/cinemax/showtime (dexter, game of thrones, the wire, the sapronos, rome..etc), NOT some disney or standard channel PC stuff.

 

False dichotomy. You can be mature while avoiding sexism. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Not insulting women doesn't turn something into banal Disney or "standard channel" fare. Something that is sexist might yet in other ways be mature, but I would argue that the sexism itself is actually immature. War and Peace would not have been more "mature" had Tolstoy lovingly dwelled for paragraph after paragraph on the nether regions of his countess and princess characters. Quite the opposite, I should say.

 

Bah, sexist is right up there with probable cause. ANYTHING can be considered sexist depending on who you ask. Opening a door for a women is sexist, NOT opening a door for a women is sexist. Complimenting a women appearance is sexist, asking on a date is sexist, looking at a women is sexist, talking about women is sexist..etc. Drawing women in sexy clothes is sexist, drawing women in common womens clothes is sexist, drawing women at all is sexist, Its impossible NOT to be sexist from somebodies point of view. Avoiding mature topics and real world situations to appease the PC crowd is not mature at all.

[Badmojo]

*sigh* this thread is nothing but a toxic pit that is distracting from actual game discussion and should have been moved to another forum a while back, because it is preventing actual real game discussion to commence.. Oh well, when in rome.

 

 

I think this push for political correctness by white knights and femenists are going to make the game less fun. When I play a game I do not want real world politics in it at all. I want to have FUN, I do not want to play some political correct groups wet dream game, I want to play a game where politics are thrown out the window. It is why I LOVE cd projekt, they do not care about politics, they create games that THEY want to play and is fun. The same group trying to shove there ideology here also tried to shove it down CDP's forums as well when the witcher 2 was created. I am so glad they did not listen and shudder at what the game would have been like if they did. Brian Fargo said it pretty good, (I am paraphrasing) its a mature game, when created a mature game, it should be like going to HBO/cinemax/showtime (dexter, game of thrones, the wire, the sapronos, rome..etc), NOT some disney or standard channel PC stuff.

 

Another circle... I think the "white knights" agreed pages ago on the Witcher being a rather good game (if it wasn't for the silly cards in Witcher 1), because the Witcher does NOT put Triss into a chainmail bikini and lets every female NPC run around like a harlot. As I said long ago, I like sexism, racism, un-PC things in a game if it's actually part of the setting and storyline and helps the immersion. Triss is one of the strongest and most memorable female characters from a game I know.

Why don't you guys just get that this isn't a fight for female liberation and turning every game into a Bioware-like "everyone's equal and bi and whatnot" setting, but simply a discussion about ridiculous outfits and sexism that isn't in the storyline but in the art design that caters to the dumbest sort of male virgins that would also shout "Green shirt girl, go shirtless" in a livestream chat?

 

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, I think Disney is much much worse than any of those mature examples, Game of Thrones or whatever. The latter feature very strong female characters, while Disney usually feeds the kids with female rolemodels I want to vomit on.

 

Your words are contradictory, you say you are not fighting for women injustice, but then call men who like this stuff dumb male virgins. No, this is just a stepping stone, like with the boob armour. Obsidian really screwed up by caving in, now the white knights smell weakness and are hammering the forum again and again (resurrecting the same women vs...whatever threads again and again and again, BS) asking for more and more. Read this whole thread again, its NOT just the art the WK are asking for.

[UncleBourbon]

If they had kept the boob plate, I'd have been fine with it - provided they either explained that there was significant infrastructure and population to justify mass production and the production of both male and female specific armors, or if the male characters were shown as wearing boob plates, as the world was female-warrior centric, and hte men just had to make due.

[Sykid]

If games are doing stupid, impractical things to pander to the overactive libidos and misogynistic tendencies of teenage boys, then I figure video games SHOULD change. Doing stupid and impractical things just to show some skin is not a virtue. It is not a virtue for a character to excuse their clothing with "It's entirely practical and your western ways are so ridiculous" when that kind of underwear is silly and impractical in the context of close quarters hand-to-hand combat.

 

If you think a game is stupid then don't buy it. That's what I did with Bayonetta. Problem solved. Declaring yourself offended on behalf of all women and demanding that the gaming industry change to suit your sensibilities is infantile. If you look hard enough for sexism in any form media you will always, always find it.

 

Mods don't change the core game. You seem to act as though THIS topic is, for some reason, entirely off-limits. And yet, somehow, here you are, on a forum meant for discussing video games. Somewhere along the line you consider certain topics worth discussing, rather than sitting around and saying "Well, that's certainly a developer vision". Where's the line about what people can and can't criticize?

 

What do you mean "core game?" Do you mean game mechanics? Female characters in Obsidian games are mechanically identical male ones. Story? Female characters in Obsidian games are portrayed in every profession from all walks of life and personality types. So what are you getting at? The discussion in this thread has predominantly been about the artistic style of female characters. Art assets are typically the first things to be modded with great variety because personal taste can be so different from player to player.

 

 

So if every single character walked around entirely nude for no apparent reason in the standard release but fans made a clothing mod, everything would be fine and there'd be no issue?

 

A laughable exaggeration. Let's try to stick to reality here.

 

 

It wouldn't be if the same character didn't act as though the underwear was entirely practical, specifically for close quarters hand-to-hand combat. It isn't.

 

That's not how she acts. When asked why she doesn't have more clothes on, she says "I fail to understand the problem. I had heard the coreward systems had customs concerning... modesty, but when training, such customs are not practical or efficient."

 

The Exile then can say: "I disagree. In fact, if you don't train while encumbered, you are crippling yourself."

 

To which she responds: "I can see no fault in your reasoning. I do have bulkier clothes."

 

 

 

And that doesn't nullify that fact that you're using OTHER characters like Kreia to justify Handmaiden's Undies. Other characters don't factor in or make her undies any better.

 

Handmaiden is a well written character. Her story deals with the major themes of KOTOR2: identity, defiance, and betrayal. You are willing to entirely dismiss her character based on the undergarments she wears in one scene because they're slightly more revealing than what other men/women wear, as if her character would be more admirable if she just covered up more. If anything, that's sexist.

[Giantevilhead]

Why are people making such big generalizations and assuming that this is some kind of all or nothing deal? It is not an all or nothing deal.

 

1. This is not about making the whole game some politically correct or feminist propaganda. That is a completely unfounded and illogical assertion. I want there to be good necromancers in the game, that does not mean I want the entire game to revolve around good necromancers. I want better and more reasonable treatment of women in the game, that does not mean I want the entire game to be about that.

 

2. This is just one element in the game, one among dozens. It will detract from the game if done poorly but it won't necessarily ruin the game. In fact, no one suggesting that it will ruin the game.

 

For example, Planescape: Torment is a great game but is it without flaws? Of course not, it has bugs, poor pathfinding, control problems, etc. The fact that it had female fighters with impractical armor is a flaw, perhaps not as big of a flaw as the bugs or the unfinished content, but a flaw nonetheless. Planescape is great not because it had female fighters with impractical armor, it is great in spite of it.

 

Project Eternity can be great if it falters in this aspect just as it can be great if it has bugs or control problems. However, that does not mean the developers should not try to avoid this problem any more than they should try to avoid bugs or control problems.

 

3. This is not about explicitly dealing with the subject in the game. Believe it or not, you can have better representation for women (as well as minorities and the LGBT community) without blatantly shoving it in people's faces, nor do you have to deal with issues that are unique or exclusive to these groups. Having a female character does not mean you have to focus on childbearing or breast cancer, just as having a straight male character does not mean you have to focus on straight sex.

 

4. No one is forcing anything on the developers. Instead of just making this assertion, how about providing some actual evidence? Show that there are people making unreasonable demands on the developers. Show that the majority of people who talks about this issue are like that.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[Sykid]

Wasn't Planescape: Torment the game where the protagonist was a male who walked around in a loincloth?

[RaccoonTOF]

Women in western society have not been discriminated against for years now.

They have more legal privileges, leniency and support than males in nearly any situation, and there is no case (bar maybe stuff like proffesional football ?) where they are prohibited from taking part.

There are far more women only political, social, educational and sports groups than there are male only (if any).

Most, if not downright all, social "expectations" from women of the 19th-20th century have been phased out completely, while many men are still expected to adhere to them today ( I just love it when I'm next to the door in an elevator and some chick next to me barges in over me because she expects me to let her through first ... sigh )

 

This is actually STILL a case of discrimination, though you may be correct in stating that it is not being discriminated against. And this is one of the biggest problems with any sort of "affirmative action" solution as well. It also doesn't address the still existing discrepancies for non-performance related issues (and this doesn't apply just to women either - age, race, and a variety of other factors can all lead to lesser compensation and/or control/power for equal performance). In fact, one of the reasons for there BEING so many fewer "male" organizations is because of how they get attacked if/when they exist. If I were to advocate for and create a "young white male support society" it would get bashed immediately on all fronts, being called sexist, racist, and likely compared to Hitler - yet do the same for a "middle-aged black women's support society" and it is seen as perfectly appropriate.

 

One of the problems with the thread and the direction it is taking I think is largely due to the merging of threads and inclusion of "feminism" in the title. Especially because many people have not actually gone and read all of the posts here and are instead just skimming a page or two and then stating their knee-jerk reactions to the word "feminism". So they then go on to bash anyone in support of a "realism" point of view (again, for those that don't bother reading all the posts, I'm making a differentiation between "realistic" and "historical" - realistic WITHIN the given game setting is what I mean here) as being white-knight feminist supporters with no understanding of "fantasy".

 

Personally, I'm just as against the idea of spiky male armor, gratuitous skulls embossed in steel, exposed abs, etc etc. Ditto for ridiculously unwieldy swords, keys taking up as much inventory space as a full suit of armor, every NPC in the game being either "gorgeous" or "hideous" etc. I do believe that Obsidian can and will totally trash some/many of the stereotypes, and do a good job of it. But consistent handling of that is key - and this is where a lot of my concerns stem from. Merely describing a character in dialogue as being "incredibly ravishing" and "the most gorgeous x you've ever laid eyes on" when the visual representation for all the rest of the "x" in the game is just as "hot", detracts from that description greatly. It was primarily for this reason, as an example, that I thought the dialogue descriptions of FFG from PS:T were over the top and jarring - there wasn't really all that much setting her appearance apart from Annah, or even from the random townswomen in the upper ward, OTHER than the dialogue. She wasn't above average for the setting in any drastically noticeable way, she was just a slightly different variation on the average. Now, if this is what the background of the world/culture/etc is, then fine - but present it that way.

 

Likewise for the armor issues (not a concern in PS:T really, due to the primary lack of armor being a major portion of your "defense" aside from the magical abilities) - if you are going to create a massive suit of articulated plate armor (non-magical) and give it a defense rating of x because of its mundane characteristics of construction, then do the same with both genders...or, if you want to give the female characters "boob plate" then sure, go for it - but reduce the defense value appropriately (again, barring magical defenses) just as I would expect that stringy male "leathers" or "muscle tanks" would have the same sort of adjustment in comparison to a proper set of overlapping heavy boiled leather armor.

Edited October 20, 2012 by RaccoonTOF

[Badmojo]

Why are people making such big generalizations and assuming that this is some kind of all or nothing deal? It is not an all or nothing deal.

 

1. This is not about making the whole game some politically correct or feminist propaganda. That is a completely unfounded and illogical assertion. I want there to be good necromancers in the game, that does not mean I want the entire game to revolve around good necromancers. I want better and more reasonable treatment of women in the game, that does not mean I want the entire game to be about that.

 

2. This is just one element in the game, one among dozens. It will detract from the game if done poorly but it won't necessarily ruin the game. In fact, no one suggesting that it will ruin the game.

 

For example, Planescape: Torment is a great game but is it without flaws? Of course not, it has bugs, poor pathfinding, control problems, etc. The fact that it had female fighters with impractical armor is a flaw, perhaps not as big of a flaw as the bugs or the unfinished content, but a flaw nonetheless. Planescape is great not because it had female fighters with impractical armor, it is great in spite of it.

 

Project Eternity can be great if it falters in this aspect just as it can be great if it has bugs or control problems. However, that does not mean the developers should not try to avoid this problem any more than they should try to avoid bugs or control problems.

 

3. This is not about explicitly dealing with the subject in the game. Believe it or not, you can have better representation for women (as well as minorities and the LGBT community) without blatantly shoving it in people's faces, nor do you have to deal with issues that are unique or exclusive to these groups. Having a female character does not mean you have to focus on childbearing or breast cancer, just as having a straight male character does not mean you have to focus on straight sex.

 

4. No one is forcing anything on the developers. Instead of just making this assertion, how about providing some actual evidence? Show that there are people making unreasonable demands on the developers. Show that the majority of people who talks about this issue are like that.

 

I think the beating this dead horse over and over and over again is proof enough, try and prove its not. Out of all the crazy stuff in PST, I really find it unbelievable that, the womens armour is the one thing that people noticed. Really? I am calling BS on it, it is just a convinent excuse to push an agenda that has shown up on every other freaking board on the internet lately. It IS political correctness being shoved down our throats.

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

If you think a game is stupid then don't buy it. That's what I did with Bayonetta. Problem solved. Declaring yourself offended on behalf of all women and demanding that the gaming industry change to suit your sensibilities is infantile. If you look hard enough for sexism in any form media you will always, always find it.

If you don't want to be allowed to discuss games, only consume/not consume, then why are you even here?

 

What do you mean "core game?" Do you mean game mechanics? Female characters in Obsidian games are mechanically identical male ones. Story? Female characters in Obsidian games are portrayed in every profession from all walks of life and personality types. So what are you getting at? The discussion in this thread has predominantly been about the artistic style of female characters. Art assets are typically the first things to be modded with great variety because personal taste can be so different from player to player.

I mean the vanilla game as shipped. Mods don't change the shipped game. You can't nullify any criticism of any game because somebody else changed it. If a game crashed every time combat started, but the was a fan patch to fix the issue, that wouldn't change the fact that the game shipped broken and that should be criticized. Someone could try and mod Big Rigs to be functional, but that wouldn't make Big Rigs a better game.

 

A laughable exaggeration. Let's try to stick to reality here.

The reality is that characters are running around in their underwear for no good reason. Characters are running around in their underwear to give teenage boys boners. The REALITY is laughable.

 

It's equally as stupid.

It's equally dumb.

I'ts more shallow.

It's more cynical.

It's no smarter, no better, no more acceptable than having every character run about nude.

You're just USED to it.

 

That's not how she acts. When asked why she doesn't have more clothes on, she says "I fail to understand the problem. I had heard the coreward systems had customs concerning... modesty, but when training, such customs are not practical or efficient."

Yes. That. Exactly. She says her frilly underpants are "practical" and "efficient".

 

They aren't. A push-up bra is not, cannot, and never will be considered practical for hand-to-hand combat without being stupid and laughable.

 

The Exile then can say: "I disagree. In fact, if you don't train while encumbered, you are crippling yourself."

That stupid push-up lace bra seemed pretty ****ing encumbering to me.

 

Handmaiden is a well written character. Her story deals with the major themes of KOTOR2: identity, defiance, and betrayal. You are willing to entirely dismiss her character based on the undergarments she wears in one scene because they're slightly more revealing than what other men/women wear, as if her character would be more admirable if she just covered up more. If anything, that's sexist.

I never said anything about her character or character arc. I'm fine with those. The way she is written, for the msot part, fits into the core themes(I disagree about those, by the way*). I think it's incredibly stupid that she strips down to lacey underpants and says it's a matter of ****ing practicality. I should be able to say "This aspect is dumb" without putting a damn disclaimer on it and expect that people won't then go and assume a whole laundry list of things that were never said.

 

*I've always seen the core themes of KOTOR II having to do with it's intrinsically "broken" cast, with the light and dark sides each being a means by which people deal with their internal struggles. Bao-Dur either learns to let go of his anger or realizes that he must utilize his anger to crush mandalorians. Etc and so forth. Identity, defiance, and betrayal were big themes, but I felt like the story of KOTOR II was written to be far more personal-level than that.