[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[Humodour]

1.) An average distribution of the population in regards to beauty and body-size and yes, that should go for companions as well, especially the romanceable ones. Reducing every warrior women to her looks first and her skills second is kinda primitive - and i dont want to go into the average muscle mass (or the unrealistic lack thereof) of a standard ppw.

 

Well, a rogue, bard or thief having an attractive and well taken care of body, makes sense. Though that doesn't mean they are perfect. A warrior would also make sense to have a healthy looking body, especially if they train and fight regularly and have to run around with a semi-heavy armour on. Though again not equaling perfect proportions

 

Just my .02

 

Female runners often have problems with breast size. I.e. it's really difficult to be a runner when you have big ****.

 

It does not make sense for female warriors to be big-breasted. It's not realistic.

 

I notice that you are conflating "big-breasted" with "healthy-looking", as well. Was this intentional? It's a completely illogical and nonsense conflation. In fact, often the opposite is true, as the fatter you are, the bigger your breasts are, both for men and women.

[Gulliver]

@Joukehainen: You're not listening. At no point have I claimed that there is no such thing as discrimination against women. I have also not claimed that there is no such thing as institutional discrimination against women. What I have said is that it is not the opinion of a majority of society and scholars that any and all absence of women in positions of power can always be explained entirely by discrimination and oppression.

[Joukehainen]

It's funny how no matter how intelligent and rational the argument against silly armor presents itself, people will cry "femernist agendah! Don't a-cave in Obsidiahn!"

 

I slam my head every time I enter this tread.

 

Indeed. Cuz, you know, clearly:

 

And allow me to also point out, yet again, that I think there is no need to worry too much about the representation of female characters in respect to PE, because the team looks to be doing a great job with it.

 

 

and

 

I LOVED both the choice of making a dwarven ranger female (not a combo you see often, female dwarf you know - "it's the beards!"); and the look of Cadegund. Both would certainly be attractive by offline human standards, but both look like they could indeed be warriors, and while Sagani is showing skin, it's clearly not done in a gratuitous or objectifying way.

 

I feel, OP, that Obsidian is on the ball with this and we need not worry too much.

 

is saying "Don't a-cave in Obsidiahn!"

 

@Joukehainen: You're not listening. At no point have I claimed that there is no such thing as discrimination against women. I have also not claimed that there is no such thing as institutional discrimination against women. What I have said is that it is not the opinion of a majority of society and scholars that any and all absence of women in positions of power can always be explained entirely by discrimination and oppression.

 

That's exactly what institutionalised discrimination and oppression means. It means the social group that is discriminated against is not in a position of power, ie that the members of that group are not considered to be the social, legal, and intellectual equals of the dominant group; and that as a result, they are underrepresented in decision-making positions in society. This leads those discriminated against, and society on a whole, to suffer economically, intellectually, physically, and psychologically.

 

What do you think is meant by institutionalised discrimination? Because saying "sure, institutional discrimination of women exists, but that's not why there are so few women in positions of power!" is a complete contradition in terms. If that is indeed what you mean, what then, I wonder, do you think the reason is why the very same groups that are subject to institutional discrimination happen to be those groups underrepresented in positions of power?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Joukehainen

[NOK222]

I know Obsidian can be trusted, I'm talking people in this thread.

[Badmojo]

Ok, I cannot tell you how sick to death I am of seeing this same threads popup all over the internet boards by a very small group of people pushing their PC views about women EVERYWHERE online. This thread should be locked because nothing good is coming out except circle jerk.

 

Sorry, but gonna vent a little. Lets be honest, the group who wants PC women will NEVER BE HAPPY no matter what changes are made. Whatever changes are made will never be enough, sure, they are praising the changes to the boob armour, but what about the next women who is showing too much skin? Or the next women who is too pretty? Or the next women who have boobs above an A cup? or the next women who is *shock* a maid and not the same status of a captain? or the next women...etc. And they WILL complain. I really am saddened at how quickly obsidian buckeled (well, you did obsidian), under pressure from such a very small vocal group. I personally put money in to get away from restrictions and forced Political correctness in games, if I wanted that I would have stuck with every other game out there now.

 

 

Ok, lets see, the boob armour. While I agree that it was a *little* over done, it wasn't really bad. Now he..oh sorry, she, looks like a guy in drag at best. The new armour just sucks the feminine features out of the character so she seems like a he now. However, I think that is what some group wants, unisex and no sex differences at all. Is this what all women in armour are going to look like? males with makeup? Not exactly the game I want to play. Still, I blame using the europeon ugly mideval armour design, since its a new world they should have created something unique, something that could highlight the female and male form so it is clear they are different and there is NOTHING wrong with making armour attractive in a game.

 

 

Now, lets talk about sexiness/attractivness. Yes, its not universal, but lets be real. The majority have a basic agreement about certain ideas of beauty. Sorry if its not PC, but its the truth. People are WIRED to like certain things. I like attractive/sexy women, a lot of people (not just guys) do. Trying to say its wrong or that its sexist is just stupid. It is no different than a gay person being wired to like the same sex, you would not call that wrong/sexist would you...oh, but its different because they are gay? No? even if its lesbians who like sexy women? but..but.. sorry, we like what we like and there is nothing wrong or shameful about it. Trying to force PC views on other people is no different than the church going after people to SAVE their souls from damnation because they do not believe what they believe. No thank you. ok, got a little off topic there, but my point is, there is nothing wrong with having attractive or sexy characters in the game. It is a FANTASY game, I do not want to go and see ugly women, unisex women, women covered head to toe not showing any skin like some mid eastern country, no do I want to see both sexes treated exactly the same like some disney/pixar PC movie. male and female are different from the day they are born, pretending there is no difference is silly.

 

discrimination in the game - I do want discrimination in the game, for this thread I am focusing on discrimination by sex. however I do NOT want PC ok discrimination. Like for example, the only case of discrimination just happens to be a matriarch society where men are considered inferior. This is the BS PC ok discrimination I cannot stand. Its trying to have it both ways, trying to go 'see! we are such a visionary! we showed discrimination by having men discrimated against!'...actually no, all you showed is that you are scared to tackle the issue by having women showed discriminated against and chickened out by having men the victims to apease the PC crowd. Let me be clear, that was just an example and was the ONLY discrimination in the game. Having a matriarcal society is fine, but it should be small/rare and in most cases it should be women discriminated against. With that said I am kind of worried that obsidians might try to pull the ok PC discrimination like that with the goddess of war. Like only having women warriors or something. Hope not, but who knows. What? Obsidian would not do that? Um *points to boob armour change*. again, who knows?

 

The question, why include discrimnation like this in the game? One is for atmosphere, it is more believable than the disney games where everybody gets along just dandy. Secondly, its these injustices that the players (if they are good) can try and change for the better(or evil, make it worse). This is the type of conflict that those who want to do something besides just fight monsters might love to do.

 

Realism - What does that even mean in a game? Some people want to force eating, sleeping, carrying wounds and not heal for weeks, only walking, everything having weight to carry, armour degradation, ..etc. That may be real, but I want none of that type of realism at all, that is unfun for me. The same with people, I prefer to interact with attractive people, not all, but a high percentage. Obviously, an old person should be old, the grizzled warrior should be...well...grizzled. However, I do expect to run into attractive and dare I even say it? Sexy women (or men if you are into that). Why? BECAUSE ITS A FANTASY GAME! You read any fantasy books? They have sexy women/men in them all the time and it is NOT just for horny teenagers. Adults like this stuff too, trying to pretend its imature is like saying playing games is for kids. People like what they like.

 

Ok, feel better, would write more but its late. I still say the op needs to move this thread (and all other related and the ones that KEEP POPPING UP BY SOME GROUPS) to the off topic forum because nothing good is coming from this thread and it is just going to dominate this forum and divide the community.

[Monte Carlo]

 

Blah

 

 

I bet you're a boatload of fun at parties.

[kenup]

1.) An average distribution of the population in regards to beauty and body-size and yes, that should go for companions as well, especially the romanceable ones. Reducing every warrior women to her looks first and her skills second is kinda primitive - and i dont want to go into the average muscle mass (or the unrealistic lack thereof) of a standard ppw.

 

Well, a rogue, bard or thief having an attractive and well taken care of body, makes sense. Though that doesn't mean they are perfect. A warrior would also make sense to have a healthy looking body, especially if they train and fight regularly and have to run around with a semi-heavy armour on. Though again not equaling perfect proportions

 

Just my .02

 

Female runners often have problems with breast size. I.e. it's really difficult to be a runner when you have big ****.

 

It does not make sense for female warriors to be big-breasted. It's not realistic.

 

I notice that you are conflating "big-breasted" with "healthy-looking", as well. Was this intentional? It's a completely illogical and nonsense conflation. In fact, often the opposite is true, as the fatter you are, the bigger your breasts are, both for men and women.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. That was one point I wanted to make, and it seems you got it in reverse. Attractiveness and healthyness of a body, are not equal to big breasts or anything like that. That was my ****ing debate with the OP, that attractiveness does not equal to what she(?) considers being shown as "ppw".

Edited October 19, 2012 by kenup

[NOK222]

Now he..oh sorry, she, looks like a guy in drag at best.

 

She looks downright pretty in the wallpaper shooting zombies.

 

Opinions I guess.

[wbn]

Will we be able to specialize in sandwich mastery?

 

/misogyny

 

If there's some kind of "party harmony" or "morale" system, a (unisex ) cooking perk you could be taught would actually be a fun thing to have. Remember how Smiley taught you to skin Geckos out of nowhere, for example? I found that immensely satisfying to get. PC could make sammiches during resting. He'd be the Tim Cain of my party. Honestly I don't know why you guys aren't paying me for this.

[Umberlin]

NPCs are one thing, but, in regard to player made characters, how 'bout we leave what attractive means, and whether the characters are attractive (or not) up to the player?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Umberlin

[UncleBourbon]

Now he..oh sorry, she, looks like a guy in drag at best.

 

She looks downright pretty in the wallpaper shooting zombies.

 

Opinions I guess.

 

Not to mention how much femininity you need to distinguish a woman from a man. A certain paladin turned deathguard from NWN/HotU seemd on the masculine side to me, but never once did I mistake her for a man. The blad wizard in MotB is certainly weird - especially if your first play through is without sound, like mine was - but she makes her feminine nature rather known pretty quickly (to me, at least). Add to this that attractiveness is not always correlated with cup size or body weight. But I digress, I think she still looks plenty womanly, and plenty attractive, in her way.

 

As to player attractiveness: The issue of seduction/charisma/persuasion is presented. If it is even implemented in an appearance-based way, that is.

Edited October 19, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[TCJ]

In history the only reason boob plate didn't exist is because women were not allowed to be soldiers at that time...

 

Typically I will make replies with words, but in this case I think some emoticons will say it best.

 

 

Then again, perhaps I should spell that out.

 

: Amazed that someone would declare something so absurd to be a fact.

 

: Looking around to see the faces of everyone else present.

 

: Trying to hold back the laughter.

 

: Too funny. Can't stop the laughing. Comedy gold!

Edited October 19, 2012 by TCJ

[kenup]

In history the only reason boob plate didn't exist is because women were not allowed to be soldiers at that time...

One word. Effectiveness. Not to mention boob plates would have weak spots, Falling face down with such a thing can push and close the sternum and that's not good

Edited October 19, 2012 by kenup

[Joukehainen]

 

I bet you're a boatload of fun at parties.

 

Assuredly far more than "a grumpy middle-aged gamer from Britain."

[UncleBourbon]

As TCJ pointed out, it is absurd to suggest women weren't soldiers in the past. But additionally, most soldiers for the build of history did NOT wear full plate or probably even half plate equivilant armor. Besides being bulky and draining on a persons stamina (80 pounds for a breastplate iirc in player's armory, and that whole 1 point dex bonus limit?), they were also quite expensive. The heavist suits of armor exceeded 200 pounds, limited the wearer to virtually no range of movement, and was only really useful on horseback. Coming down a bit, even the heavy troop armor, if it was solid plates or plate mail, was still quite cumbersome and expensive. Many more soldiers would be wearing chain or chainmail and heavy cloths, with the hope of not being a primary target and praying for good fortune on the battlefield. Any armor that didn't consist of solid or pieces of solid metal would likely fit either gender without terribly much difficulty, with the exception of some range of movement impairment if they were particularly bulky or endowed, either by fat or muscle. Add to this that a single piece of armor probably lasted through many individuals and repairs, passed on either through families, battle acquaintance or through looting.

 

That said, several militaries are known to have preferred male majority of troops, though this is probably as much a result of socio-economic circumstances and religious views as gender differences. Women tended to be the best caretakers of children, and they were far more essential to the continuation of the nation. Let us not forget that while fewer women shipped off to war in WWII, they were still undeniably vital to the war effort.

Edited October 19, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[RaccoonTOF]

 

In history the only reason boob plate didn't exist is because women were not allowed to be soldiers at that time, so women who were had to conceal there gender, or they'd be murdered (No armour invovled, but an example would be the female pope, when they found out she was a women she was stoned to death sadly).

 

If this society has equality of gender then some women warriors might wish to express that instead of hiding it.

 

This is actually quite wrong - at least in regards to armor designed for function. Segmented full-plate armor has that distinct forward "wedge" shape, tapering to a narrow waist and then flaring thigh guards for very practical reasons - to shed blows away from vital areas with the least chance of trapping an enemy weapon or focusing the force of an attack. "Boob plate" instead would actually focus most of the attacks directly, or almost directly, at one of the most vulnerable areas of the body (central torso, just below the sternum) with the maximal concentration of blow strength. NOT a good design for practical defense.

 

Now, that said - when talking about "fashionable" armor, then your second point comes into play - just as the muscle cuirass in real history, which was a piece of "dress armor" not "battle armor" in almost all cases. Wearing "dress armor" I can perfectly understand "boob plate" style armor - just as I can understand the desire (men and women both) for wearing skimpy or tight leather, cloth, or any other material. But that armor should NOT have the same "defense" value as a suit of fully articulated plate designed in an appropriate manner for defense...

[Grimlorn]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

[Joukehainen]

Should genders be represented as completely and fully equal? I don't know. In a setting where slavery exists and the major deity has stopped talking to his priest, and moral ambiguity is abound, I imagine there is probably a good bit of strife and sectarian violence along gender, racial and cultural lines.

 

I totally agree that the diegetic, that is, in-game races, cultures, genders, whathaveyou should also reflect strife, violence, discrimination, etc; and I'm sure, due to their track record and dev responses during the stream, that those elements will be in there.

 

There is, of course, a huge difference between reflecting injustices in our society in the diegesis of an RPG or book or film, and between letting "real world" discrimination colour the presentation of that diegesis in an unintentional, or unconscious way, to the point where it feels lazy and gets offensive. Ie, racist, sexist, homophobic stereotypes, etc.

 

Of course, I have little to no concern that the latter will occur, bc what we've seen so far and what the devs have done in the past is testament to that (despite some of that unfortunate PS:T art ).

[UncleBourbon]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

http://kotaku.com/58...who-makes-armor

http://madartlab.com...-and-lady-bits/

Are some of the easy to find sources. I sat in on a lecture of middle-ages armor at university and they discussed this at well with some more academic sources. That, and physics evidence.

 

Also, I indeed think most of this worry is uneeded. Obsidian has a good track record, of both enthralling storytelling and quality game mechanics and graphics. That said, I've seen companies deviate and fall short of their potential - especially as of late. I still have hope and trust in them to make another immensely enjoyable game.

Edited October 19, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[Gorth]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

http://kotaku.com/58...who-makes-armor

http://madartlab.com...-and-lady-bits/

Are some of the easy to find sources. I sat in on a lecture of middle-ages armor at university and they discussed this at well with some more academic sources. That, and physics evidence.

 

Also, I indeed think most of this worry is uneeded. Obsidian has a good track record, of both enthralling storytelling and quality game mechanics and graphics. That said, I've seen companies deviate and fall short of their potential - especially as of late. I still have hope and trust in them to make another immensely enjoyable game.

I see, but if women aren't in boob plate armor how will I know they are actual women and not just some clever tranny in disguise?

Who says you need to know?

[UncleBourbon]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

http://kotaku.com/58...who-makes-armor

http://madartlab.com...-and-lady-bits/

Are some of the easy to find sources. I sat in on a lecture of middle-ages armor at university and they discussed this at well with some more academic sources. That, and physics evidence.

 

Also, I indeed think most of this worry is uneeded. Obsidian has a good track record, of both enthralling storytelling and quality game mechanics and graphics. That said, I've seen companies deviate and fall short of their potential - especially as of late. I still have hope and trust in them to make another immensely enjoyable game.

I see, but if women aren't in boob plate armor how will I know they are actual women and not just some clever tranny in disguise?

 

What is an adventure without risks? Also to keep on hand: a spell of forgetfullness

[kenup]

You can always try to check under the skirt.

[RaccoonTOF]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

 

Actually...yes. I've made both chain and "half-plate" armors for SCA participants, along with a number of other materials. And there are plenty of other sources available to back it up if you choose not to take "my" word for it. One fellow who posted an article over at MadArtLab earlier in the thread I believe explained it well there also, and there have been countless discussions on how and why plate (and other forms of) armor were shaped and designed as they were in historical reenactment circles. There are a number of other misconceptions (such as maneuverability in "full plate" armor, mounting a horse, etc etc) which have been disproven time and again too, yet people still seem to persist in believing them - often due to movie depictions and/or reliance on older history books and the like which did not have a very good real understanding and only went for the "common sense" explanation - and lemme tell you, when designing weapons and armor for actual combat use, "common sense" actually ends up having VERY little to do with real life...

[Grimlorn]

I didn't realize we had so many experts on boob platemail armor. Fascinating.

 

How have you guys tested these boob plate armors?

http://kotaku.com/58...who-makes-armor

http://madartlab.com...-and-lady-bits/

Are some of the easy to find sources. I sat in on a lecture of middle-ages armor at university and they discussed this at well with some more academic sources. That, and physics evidence.

 

Also, I indeed think most of this worry is uneeded. Obsidian has a good track record, of both enthralling storytelling and quality game mechanics and graphics. That said, I've seen companies deviate and fall short of their potential - especially as of late. I still have hope and trust in them to make another immensely enjoyable game.

I see, but if women aren't in boob plate armor how will I know they are actual women and not just some clever tranny in disguise?

Who says you need to know?

I have to know. If they're lying about their sex, what else are they lying about? hmmmmmmm?

[TCJ]

I would also point out that from the smith's perspective, even if such a form-fitting plate could be just as strong as a normal one, it would take a lot more effort and hours of labor to make such a thing.