[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[Chabneruk]

As I read the thread about armor and weapon design, I wondered: "What will the women in PE be like?"

 

I don't know if it has been discussed already. But I am fairly sick of the standartised perfectly proportionated women (ppw) in most games. It is simply unrealistic, especially if it involves breast-formed armor, total lack of armor or a fantasy-version of stilettos. That does not mean that I don't want good-looking women, as there are well-proportioned men in any fantasy universe as well. I only ask two things:

 

1.) An average distribution of the population in regards to beauty and body-size and yes, that should go for companions as well, especially the romanceable ones. Reducing every warrior women to her looks first and her skills second is kinda primitive - and i dont want to go into the average muscle mass (or the unrealistic lack thereof) of a standard ppw.

 

2.) A new definition of beauty in games, less fixated on the body proportions and more focused on character, all in all. Top models may be good-looking, but not the kind of women you want to spend your life with. Stop regarding minor fallacies in looks far more important than intelligence, character and the likes, dear co-gamers!

 

The weather after this post could turn definitively ragey, with a chance of ****storm, so let me clarify: Yes, as a male I am attracted to ppw. But as an intelligent human I like women with "a special something", or character, or whatever you call it far more. And I certainly do not want all women in PE to be "ugly, but with character" or "fat, but with personality" or whatever crossed your mind while reading this. I just wished that the gaming community, developers and players aside, would expand their definition of beauty.

 

And maybe in this game, which does not need to show screenshots of ppw anymore to find interest, it will finally be possible.

[Superdeluxe]

Yes this has been talked about

[Chabneruk]

Interesting. Do you have a link?

 

edit: Well, i found one. But it has been closed. Is there a policy not to talk about this topic? If so, please close or delete my thread.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Chabneruk

[Ruka]

They removed breast armor I believe

[kenup]

1.) An average distribution of the population in regards to beauty and body-size and yes, that should go for companions as well, especially the romanceable ones. Reducing every warrior women to her looks first and her skills second is kinda primitive - and i dont want to go into the average muscle mass (or the unrealistic lack thereof) of a standard ppw.

 

Well, a rogue, bard or thief having an attractive and well taken care of body, makes sense. Though that doesn't mean they are perfect. A warrior would also make sense to have a healthy looking body, especially if they train and fight regularly and have to run around with a semi-heavy armour on. Though again not equaling perfect proportions

 

Just my .02

Edited October 18, 2012 by kenup

[Chabneruk]

Well, a rogue, bard or thief having an attractive and well taken care of body, makes sense. Though that doesn't mean they are perfect. A warrior would also make sense to have a healthy looking body, especially if they train and fight regularly and have to run around with a semi-heavy armour on.

 

Just my .02

 

I agree on the "well taken care of", but not on "attractive". Imo these are two very different things. They would be rather slim, bony or muscular and definitely not along the lines of the standard ppw. Look at Brienne from Game of Thrones for example. Well-trained, well taken care of body? Yes. Attractive? Not from her looks - maybe from her principles. Jaime Lannister definitely sees something in her.

[casa]

I actually really like the dwarf ranger pic, if that means anything. I like varity too, and nothing oversexualised... the same applies to men too btw, I rarely play male characters in RPGs anymore because the stereotypical barbarian guy (or US Marine guy in modern games) annoys me to no end and I can't and don't want to identify myself with them.

 

I also really like the non-equal approach when it comes to mechanics, basically the opposite of what Bioware does. It has nothing to do with being a sexist when I sometimes wish that in a good storyline there can be sexism, to make a story more interesting and give a female character the feeling of fighting against the odds. Some games also gave female PCs different stats like less base strength but instead, uh... more will or whatever. These kind of things make things more immersive for me.

[Chabneruk]

It has nothing to do with being a sexist when I sometimes wish that in a good storyline there can be sexism, to make a story more interesting and give a female character the feeling of fighting against the odds. Some games also gave female PCs different stats like less base strength but instead, uh... more will or whatever. These kind of things make things more immersive for me.

 

Mount & Blade had women characters in single player which were definitively suffering from sexism (male lords mostly hated them, it was harder to get successful etc.) which made it quite intrigueing to play a woman and to overcome these difficulties with skill in fighting or manipulation. The game should thematise sexism, but not be sexist. It is a fine line to walk for sure, but it would add realism and another level of gameplay.

[SunBroSolaire]

I personally think the character concepts for Sagani and Cadegund look really cool. The fact is, characters are going to be aesthetically pleasing because that's the kind of character people like to look at. Cadegund and Sagani are both beautiful imho, but that doesn't devalue their characters. In fact, liking the looks of a character is important for making an emotional attachment to them, male or female, gay or straight. People seem to rail against characters being conventionally attractive, but I think being attractive isn't the problem so much as being designed lazily.

 

I think there's zero chance that empty-headed, over sexualized female characters will be a problem in Project Eternity given OE's track record and what we've seen so far.

[kenup]

Well, a rogue, bard or thief having an attractive and well taken care of body, makes sense. Though that doesn't mean they are perfect. A warrior would also make sense to have a healthy looking body, especially if they train and fight regularly and have to run around with a semi-heavy armour on.

 

Just my .02

 

I agree on the "well taken care of", but not on "attractive". Imo these are two very different things. They would be rather slim, bony or muscular and definitely not along the lines of the standard ppw. Look at Brienne from Game of Thrones for example. Well-trained, well taken care of body? Yes. Attractive? Not from her looks - maybe from her principles. Jaime Lannister definitely sees something in her.

Not disagreeing completely, but I think someone who wants to talk their way through something, has to account for looks. Do not misunderstand that for perfect proportions, or double Ds and round asses all rolled into one(or skimpy clothing). But since their job might involve faking attraction to a member of the opposite sex, in this case men, why not make sure that the body is attractive? Or highlight the right parts.

Edited October 18, 2012 by kenup

[AlphaShard]

Well I think we're off to a good start with Cadegund and Sagani in that they look like realistic women and not oversexulaised.

[septembervirgin]

Describe them with pink unicorns!

[Chabneruk]

I personally think the character concepts for Sagani and Cadegund look really cool. The fact is, characters are going to be aesthetically pleasing because that's the kind of character people like to look at. Cadegund and Sagani are both beautiful imho, but that doesn't devalue their characters.

 

Yes, and this is a definitive improvement over this. Sagani does not look to standartised as well Still, another companion who fits clichees less will also be included...

 

Maybe PE will become an example for other games in this regard. One can only hope.

 

Not disagreeing completely, but I think someone who wants to talk their way through something, has to account for looks. Do not misunderstand that for perfect proportions, or double Ds and round asses all rolled into one(or super skimpy clothing). But since their job might involve faking attraction to a member of the opposite sex, in this case men, why not make sure that the body is attractive? Or highlight the right parts.

 

It is simply a bonus imo. Sad truth: Men will go for almost anything, so a skinny, foxfaced thief will be asked for certain favors as well as a bombshell, should it come to that. Thus, it is surely possible for an attractive woman to become head of the thiefs guild, but its more likely that an average-looking woman with skills will have the position, simply because there are more average-looking women out there (thats the point of average after all). And the beautiful one might prefer the life of a prostitute, because its definitely less illegal and risky than being a thief.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Chabneruk

[casa]

Well I think we're off to a good start with Cadegund and Sagani in that they look like realistic women and not oversexulaised.

 

Completely agree. Although, when I mentioned the Sagani pic I meant the painted one, not the concept art. Anyway, they're both a good and interesting start. Just waiting to see if they can make a female elf a little less stereotype too.

[Chabneruk]

Completely agree. Although, when I mentioned the Sagani pic I meant the painted one, not the concept art. Anyway, they're both a good and interesting start. Just waiting to see if they can make a female elf a little less stereotype too.

 

To make things even more interesting they shoud consider giving her a beard. THAT would deviate from standard fantasy beauty, Terry Pratchetts dwarf excluded. Especially if you could romance her

[RaccoonTOF]

This doesn't even begin to account for the diversity in what people consider "perfectly proportioned" either - just going from the examples listed here, I am assured that my thoughts on "perfectly proportioned" differ (in some cases greatly) from those of other posters already. Variety - in all aspects - is necessary if the aim is to generate attraction (physical or otherwise) by the player. Then again, from personal experience, I rarely find myself even noticing "physical attractiveness" in the list of traits held by characters that I tend to be drawn to...and only rarely in those that I'm indifferent too either, unless it is in a humorous way due to over-exaggerated aspects (most commonly such as the boobplate+straps female armor, etc.) That said, I have just as much issue with the male stereotypes as well, as already mentioned by a few. Especially considering that I have RL experience with a large variety of body types of both male and female "warriors" (modern weaponry and historical both included) and the variety of body types in those warriors/soldiers is FAR more drastic than anything I've seen in any video game to date (aside from racial/alien or deliberate exaggerations of differences). I want to see a "range of normal with a few extremes" rather than the stereotypical lithe warrior woman, hulking warrior male, effete swashbuckler, haggard crone, etc. What about that 80 year old hermit that DOESN'T look like badly weathered tree bark covered in scars, and it's from honest exercise and healthy living, rather than some mystical/magical effect? What about that strangely nimble overweight warrior that puts your young reflexes to shame? Dwarves that have "let themselves go", ANYONE that is not portrayed as either ancient or evil with facial blemishes, etc etc etc.

 

On the sexism note - I've often wanted to create (and have run a number of pen and paper campaigns) or see created a world where it is the MEN who suffer from the inferior role, on a grand worldwide scale and not just in some "backwards" matrilineal/matriarchal society looked down on as "uncivilized" or "strange" by the rest of the world. Especially fun was the one campaign where I did this and the PLAYERS had no idea in advance - such a shame for the egotistical male burly fighter who found out that in this world his role was that of "servitude" to do the "dirty work" for the women...

[kenup]

It is simply a bonus imo. Sad truth: Men will go for almost anything, so a skinny, foxfaced thief will be asked for certain favors as well as a bombshell, should it come to that. Thus, it is surely possible for an attractive woman to become head of the thiefs guild, but its more likely that an average-looking woman with skills will have the position, simply because there are more average-looking women out there (thats the point of average after all). And the beautiful one might prefer the life of a prostitute, because its definitely less illegal and risky than being a thief.

That doesn't change the fact that one must find something attractive, on the person faking it in order for the hoax to work. And I would argue that a beautiful woman can be leader of the thieves guild, without that meaning they are devoid of skill. In fact their diplomatic and leadership skills combined with looks might give her an edge over the easy to hide pickpocket of the guild, which would be best as the person to do the difficult jobs that need sleight of hand rather than social skills.

And you seem to take average as not attractive? I'm sorry if I misunderstand.

[Loranc]

As I read the thread about armor and weapon design, I wondered: "What will the women in PE be like?"

 

I don't know if it has been discussed already. But I am fairly sick of the standartised perfectly proportionated women (ppw) in most games. It is simply unrealistic, especially if it involves breast-formed armor, total lack of armor or a fantasy-version of stilettos. That does not mean that I don't want good-looking women, as there are well-proportioned men in any fantasy universe as well. I only ask two things:

 

1.) An average distribution of the population in regards to beauty and body-size and yes, that should go for companions as well, especially the romanceable ones. Reducing every warrior women to her looks first and her skills second is kinda primitive - and i dont want to go into the average muscle mass (or the unrealistic lack thereof) of a standard ppw.

 

2.) A new definition of beauty in games, less fixated on the body proportions and more focused on character, all in all. Top models may be good-looking, but not the kind of women you want to spend your life with. Stop regarding minor fallacies in looks far more important than intelligence, character and the likes, dear co-gamers!

 

The weather after this post could turn definitively ragey, with a chance of ****storm, so let me clarify: Yes, as a male I am attracted to ppw. But as an intelligent human I like women with "a special something", or character, or whatever you call it far more. And I certainly do not want all women in PE to be "ugly, but with character" or "fat, but with personality" or whatever crossed your mind while reading this. I just wished that the gaming community, developers and players aside, would expand their definition of beauty.

 

And maybe in this game, which does not need to show screenshots of ppw anymore to find interest, it will finally be possible.

 

Hmmm... you're insinuating that a game can't have the best of both. I'm a fan of the way characters have been done in PS:T and BG2, I believe that the newer games are focusing more on 'fan service' and cruddy dialogue than on the characters themselves. I believe that as long as PE stays on the course of PS:T dialogue-characters, it will be wonderful. A visual novel game so to speak, but with the action/game play of BG2&IWD2, what a terrific game that would be.

 

That is how I envision PE anyways, i'm not talking about the mechanics so to speak, just a broad view. If you could take those three games and smash them together somehow... I would be a very happy man.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Loranc

[Darth Trethon]

I would be 100% fine if I didn't have to see any fat/ugly women in PE, perfectly fine in my book.

[SunBroSolaire]

I personally think the character concepts for Sagani and Cadegund look really cool. The fact is, characters are going to be aesthetically pleasing because that's the kind of character people like to look at. Cadegund and Sagani are both beautiful imho, but that doesn't devalue their characters.

 

Yes, and this is a definitive improvement over this. Sagani does not look to standartised as well Still, another companion who fits clichees less will also be included...

 

Maybe PE will become an example for other games in this regard. One can only hope.

yeah, I didn't mind the original, but the new one is better. Interestingly, so far the male characters are a lot more 'generic'... I wouldn't mind a dude who also didn't fit into rigid gender roles / fantasy archetypes.

[nikolokolus]

When it comes to the concept art, it's somewhat apparent that the team is going for a more "realistic" look (whatever that means in a fantasy world?) and aren't going for an exaggerated depiction of form (for either sex).

 

Bear in mind however, this going to be an isometric game where the character models are going to be somewhat small and "distant," there won't be much to see on the screen.

 

This just seems like much ado about nothing.

[Sensuki]

I don't think I've seen a woman of volume in any RPG I've played except for Baldur's Gate, the mayor's wife type npc model.

 

BBW is ok with me though

 

Agreed about the males. Will this be the first game where there's no female elf npc ???

[Malcador]

Would you really be seeing all that much of them, based on the perspective though ? Given that, just have to worry about the way they're written.

[Chabneruk]

That doesn't change the fact that one must find something attractive, on the person faking it in order for the hoax to work. And I would argue that a beautiful woman can be leader of the thieves guild, without that meaning they are devoid of skill. In fact their diplomatic and leadership skills combined with looks might give her an edge over the easy to hide pickpocket of the guild, which would be best as the person to do the difficult jobs that need sleight of hand rather than social skills.

And you seem to take average as not attractive? I'm sorry if I misunderstand.

 

I differentiate between ppw (perfectly proportionate women) and average women here. That does not mean I don't average women less attractive, quite the contrary, because they are believable. And regarding your answer, yes of course Miss Perfect could be the leader. It is simply not as probable. Looks don't define her function as much as her skills. And statistically spoken average looks and high skills are more likely

 

I would be 100% fine if I didn't have to see any fat/ugly women in PE, perfectly fine in my book.

 

Might lead to some disappointment and false hopes in RL though... But I accept your opinion, though I don't share it. To clarify: I am talking about standard perfect beauty models that need to be discarded. And yes, there should be women in the game who are fat, who are ugly. That is life. Imo they should accompany the PC as well

[Darth Trethon]

I would be 100% fine if I didn't have to see any fat/ugly women in PE, perfectly fine in my book.

 

Might lead to some disappointment and false hopes in RL though... But I accept your opinion, though I don't share it. To clarify: I am talking about standard perfect beauty models that need to be discarded. And yes, there should be women in the game who are fat, who are ugly. That is life. Imo they should accompany the PC as well

 

Meh, there's plenty of things in real life I'm not fond of.....that's why I play games. If I was perfectly 100% happy with real life I wouldn't watch movies or play games. So thanks but no thanks, they can keep that slice of "real" life out of it.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Darth Trethon