Kymriana Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 My stance offers them the CHANCE to listen if they are open to it. Some are. Some aren't. But my stance also provides information and facilitates discussion amoung OTHER people who are there, join, or have been watching. There is a degree of 'power tripping' and 'moral high-ground superiority' involved when you go 'they are presenting a stupid idea and should be called stupid, told to leave, belittled, personally attacked, and so on'... It is an assumption of power that no one, except yourself, have granted you. It is not up to you to dictate what people can discuss and why. You can offer your opinion on their opinion, but the ONLY deciding voice in any of this is, in the end, Obsidian. And the point of having a forum and asking for opinions is so that they can see all of them, see the discussions, and weigh them as they see fit. You are free to be a bomb-thrower if you want. But if doesn't help your cause in the eyes of observes except for other bomb-throwers. 2 Finishing first is only impressive in a race, my dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norolim Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I have a feeling there is a good bit of us "older" people on here... You know, I agree and disagree with you on some points. But, that post is hypocritical, sorry. You imply that the way you think makes you somewhat *older*. Said in another way *superior*. That's the kind of attidude that's part of the problem. I think he meant it as "older emotionally and in terms of experience". And that is true. When people with a baggage of emotions and experience speak, it simply shows. They form their thoughts in a different way, than someone with less experience. Does it make them superior. No, not in a sense of their value as a human being. But knowledge, experience and emotional maturity are valuable assets. And they come with age. Edited October 18, 2012 by norolim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2B Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I think he meant "older emotionally and in terms of experience". And that is true. When people with a baggage of emotions and experience speak, it simply shows. They form their thought in a different way, than someone with less experience. Does it make them superior. Not in a sense of their value as a human being. But knowledge, experience and emotional maturity are valuable assets. And they come with age. Yeah, you think they should, but they really more than often don't. And they are coupled with arrogance and shortsightendness. If you were really mature of age, you wouldn't even have to mention it in a discussion. The only actual reason to do it is to say *Hey guys, we're totally better than those guys*. Which is superiority. Sorry. Edit: I don't mean to imply chris doesn't have a point, he does. But things, such as this hurt his point more than it helps. Edited October 18, 2012 by C2B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norolim Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Yeah, you think they should, but they really more than often don't. And they are coupled with arrogance and shortsightendness. If you were really mature of age, you wouldn't even have to mention it in a discussion. The only actual reason to do it is to say *Hey guys, we're totally better than those guys*. Which is superiority. Sorry. Well, of course pointing out that you are older as an argument in a discussion is just...well...childish. But I don't think chisled2bone meant it in that way. I think he just noticed that the way many forum members express their thoughts in the posts is different than what would normally be typical for very young people. And I don't mean typical in a bad way (as in "this is so typical") Edited October 18, 2012 by norolim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroiryuu Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I think everyone needs to calm down a little and remember something: The people at Obsidian are experienced game designers who have been making awesome games for ages. They obviously have a lot planned already for PE, and while they're open to input from their fans, they're not going to stick random suggestions into PE on a whim. Over 70,000 of us trusted them enough to give them substantial amounts of money for the mere promise of making another great game. I think we can extend that trust to their judgement on what will fit well and what won't. Personally, I'd be perfectly content to wait and let them do their thing, but open discussion is a great idea, at least in theory. The problem is that people get defensive and lash out at each other over disagreements, perhaps fearing that Obsidian will ignore their ideas if they're "shot down" (or pick up undesirable ideas if they aren't). This is perfectly understandable, as it's just human nature to want to protect your investment--both emotional and financial--in PE, but it's also just plain unnecessary and unproductive. In the end, Obsidian are pretty likely to "do what they want" no matter what's posted on the forums here, and what they want is to make a great game. If they see good ideas, they might incorporate them, but they're sure not going to let random community input ruin PE (the forum-goers here are a fraction of the backers, after all). If you think that strongly they shouldn't adopt an idea, it's probably better to offer some constructive criticism to convince them instead of just telling someone to pipe down. And on the flip side, try to take criticism of your own ideas in stride, even if you think someone else is being unconscionably rude. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I have a feeling there is a good bit of us "older" people on here... You know, I agree and disagree with you on some points. But, that post is hypocritical, sorry. You imply that the way you think makes you somewhat *older*. Said in another way *superior*. That's the kind of attidude that's part of the problem. I will take the blame for this... this was sorely taken out of context, but truth be told, perhaps i never put it into proper context. This was a statement that was made because Kymriana had said how they are getting too old, or something along those lines. So lets first define the word "Old", well that is actually hard to do since it is a relative term. In a 70 yr old persons eyes, am i old? No, my grandfather is 70 and he still calls me a young buck. In a teenagers eyes am I old? probably not because their parents are older than I am. In my eyes am I old? well considering my Bday is coming up and I rather not think about, sure i am. This comment was never meant as "I am superior in thinking due to my age". It was merely a thought that came to mind after someone else had mentioned age. Not only that but i remember a couple of weeks ago when there was the poll asking about everyone's ages on here. Which brings us to my statement,"I have a feeling there is a good bit of us "older" people on here..." I actually think i am in the norm, if i remember correctly. And if so that means, in my eyes, exactly what i said... i think there is a good bit of us older people on the forum. So there is a good chance you and I are of similar ages, perhaps not though. Edited October 18, 2012 by chisled2bone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diablo169 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 If you are going to post opinions on a public message board prepare for someone to crap all over them. Thats kind of how the internet works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Some really tender people here, heh. I'd hope they're just giving you lot the illusion of listening to you barring reactions to their announcements. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I think he meant "older emotionally and in terms of experience". And that is true. When people with a baggage of emotions and experience speak, it simply shows. They form their thought in a different way, than someone with less experience. Does it make them superior. Not in a sense of their value as a human being. But knowledge, experience and emotional maturity are valuable assets. And they come with age. Yeah, you think they should, but they really more than often don't. And they are coupled with arrogance and shortsightendness. Note that it is very easy to misread the intent of somebody's written message; you're overlaying your own emotional context and social filters on top of what they put down. What you are reading as arrogance and shortsightedness may be something else entirely. Digital diplomacy is a difficult skill to master; I know I'm still working on it. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerski Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Am I just imagining or has there been increasing number of crusades against injustices of the internet lately? Maybe I should make thread about that for a change. P.S. Isn't "Let Obsidian make the game they want" just another opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 yea... refer to my post that addresses this and one will see that my meaning was taken out of context. textual conversation can be misread easily without hearing tones and inflections in one's voice. ug so many arguments started through txts with the gf because of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Am I just imagining or has there been increasing number of crusades against injustices of the internet lately? Maybe I should make thread about that for a change. P.S. Isn't "Let Obsidian make the game they want" just another opinion? Have you read the entire thread? never said that opinion isnt ok to express. looking for people to back up their opinion so there can be better conversation all around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerski Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Am I just imagining or has there been increasing number of crusades against injustices of the internet lately? Maybe I should make thread about that for a change. P.S. Isn't "Let Obsidian make the game they want" just another opinion? Have you read the entire thread? never said that opinion isnt ok to express. looking for people to back up their opinion so there can be better conversation all around No I haven't read entire thread. Only first and these last two pages, but tell me how do I back that opinion? It's kind of self-evident what it means and there really is nothing more to say to that, but it's opinion nonetheless. If ideas get shot down by comments like that then it means it was not worth discussion... people didn't care or want Obsidian to surprise them. It's the nature of internet forum that not every idea will fly. EDIT: It would of course be great if everyone could present their ideas equally, but it would be just too much for developers to handle all that information. That's why forum is great for presenting ideas: It has kind of natural censorship, which keeps important things afloat and lets unimportant ones fall to the bottom. Edited October 18, 2012 by Haerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2B Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Note that it is very easy to misread the intent of somebody's written message; you're overlaying your own emotional context and social filters on top of what they put down. What you are reading as arrogance and shortsightedness may be something else entirely. Digital diplomacy is a difficult skill to master; I know I'm still working on it. I'm fully aware of that and I'm not. I didn't even adress the OP in that sentece (I don't know him well enough to make such a specific claim), but society and people that *think* they are mature and wise. Someone who is actually *mature* doesn't need to express it. That was my point to him. At most I confused his sentence with a simple observation. Though, then it was still largely unneeded and can be easily interepreted negativly which isn't really displaying great conversation. (I suck at it too by the way. Again, meant in relation to OP's point) Edited October 18, 2012 by C2B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 i know the developers do frequent these forums, but they also have an idea in mind of what they wish to accomplish with the game. With that said i find it hard to believe that the developers are taking alot of these ideas to heart. I personally see the forums as a place to talk to fellow fans who are as excited and interested in the same game/developer as me. i see it less as an area to directly suggest and communicate with the developers themselves. While it is a means to do that i just see it more as a secondary reason for the forums. and a way to back up your argument that the developers should do what they think is best depends on the topic at hand. off the top of my head something that comes to mind is the suggestion that you character should be able to turn into a dragon (a topic i believe that was posted earlier this morning, still not entirely sure if it was a troll thread or not lol) "I think the developers should just do as they see fit in this instance because the idea of being able to turn into a dragon would need to follow the plot and story that they are setting in the game as well as to make sure a mechanic like this wouldnt be over powered and a game breaker" of course this is jut an example off the top of my head, but like i said it all has to do with the context of the original post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2B Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Also @chisled2bone Just an observation. I don't want to sound like an ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Also @chisled2bone Just an observation. I don't want to sound like an ass. Dont think you are lol. Like i said in response to the comment, i never meant by mentioning the fact that i feel "old" that i was making it seem like i am mature or more mature than others or anything of the like. all is good, no worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Gates' Son Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Honestly, this wouldn't be a problem if the mods actually did their job and moderated the forums. Apparently they are either lazy or they don't do crap sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreetBushido Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I agree with the OP's initial statement, with the additions that have been made throughout this thread. A levelheaded exchange of opinions backed up with a bit of an explanation for said opinion is, in my opinion (heh), the preferable mode of discussion here (or anywhere, for that matter). At the same time I am inclined to at least partially agree with those that ideas that are completely "out there" and in general do not fit the scope and spirit of the project should be treated as such, if not with agression and hostility. In short, be cool. One love. Make sense, not war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDoomII Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Honestly, this wouldn't be a problem if the mods actually did their job and moderated the forums. Apparently they are either lazy or they don't do crap sometimes. More likely that's not their actual full-time job and most probably they are not even Obsidian's employees. They are likely very active members of the community chosen by the higher ups. So, maybe, you can cut them some slack? Do you think Pillars of Eternity doesn't have enough Portraits? Submit your vote in this Poll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evdk Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Honestly, this wouldn't be a problem if the mods actually did their job and moderated the forums. Apparently they are either lazy or they don't do crap sometimes. In my experience posts keep mysteriously vanishing, so they seem to be doing something (that, or the forum software has been programmed by Obsidian with their famous QA). Say no to popamole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfenbarg Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I agree. Obsidian didn't just ask for funding so they could make a game without a publisher. With all the community feedback they've been taking, they've essentially asked the community to be their publisher. They're constantly asking for feedback, and we know they read these boards. I've used the "Obsidian knows best" line in regards to feminism and the like, but in terms of actual features? Give feedback. I'm sure they'll appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDoomII Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Honestly, this wouldn't be a problem if the mods actually did their job and moderated the forums. Apparently they are either lazy or they don't do crap sometimes. In my experience posts keep mysteriously vanishing, so they seem to be doing something (that, or the forum software has been programmed by Obsidian with their famous QA). They don't vanish, they get merged in other topics where the same argument is being discussed. Or locked if the discussion is degenerating. Do you think Pillars of Eternity doesn't have enough Portraits? Submit your vote in this Poll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kymriana Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Honestly, this wouldn't be a problem if the mods actually did their job and moderated the forums. Apparently they are either lazy or they don't do crap sometimes. In my experience posts keep mysteriously vanishing, so they seem to be doing something (that, or the forum software has been programmed by Obsidian with their famous QA). They don't vanish, they get merged in other topics where the same argument is being discussed. Or locked if the discussion is degenerating. No, actually... they do come in and clean up threads where they find personal attacks. At least, I've sat and watched it happen. They also have said that they would deal with people on a personal basis if it got too bad, so if they ARE calling people out they are doing it the right way and keeping it private. Finishing first is only impressive in a race, my dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSOCC Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 If you are going to post opinions on a public message board prepare for someone to crap all over them. Thats kind of how the internet works. only because of people who shrug their shoulders and go "that's the way of the world" 1 Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.---Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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