Romance and friendship?

[Morality Games]

Absolutely no. You freaks already have your mass-market virtual "relationship" simulators with Bioware games. Start playing japanese dating sims if you need more virtual relationships with nuance and drama and "tasteful" sex.

 

Deep characterisations for companions - yes, absolute.

Virtual **** puppets you can dress up and validate your lonely basement-dwelling existence - hell no.

 

Problem is that the two Black Isle/Obsidian games with famously deep characterizations had romance, although the form and style differed from Bioware's.

 

The reason being because romance can add another layer of depth to a relationship.

 

What games?

 

Planescape: Torment and Knights of the Old Republic II.

 

Form: Some relationships naturally possessed overtones of romance (in Kotor 2, this varied according to the PC's gender) which could be coaxed out by the player through kind or insightful actions.

 

Style: All of the relationships carried through the main themes of the game, which 'generally' isn't the case with Bioware games.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Morality Games

[Tale]

Probably MotB and PS:T. They're Avellone "romances" though. So they're really tragedies that aren't offensive. They were written to pretty much punish those looking for virtual love/sex because our good Lord and savior Avellone famously hates the romances we all loathe.

I don't think Avellone wrote Safiya. It wasn't tragedy either way.

Unless it was and she got eaten by One of Many.

The ending I got a couple of days ago had the PC and Safiya get happily married.

 

It was pretty lame, but there it was. Doesn't hold a candle to my god devourer playthrough.

[Morality Games]

Absolutely no. You freaks already have your mass-market virtual "relationship" simulators with Bioware games. Start playing japanese dating sims if you need more virtual relationships with nuance and drama and "tasteful" sex.

 

Deep characterisations for companions - yes, absolute.

Virtual **** puppets you can dress up and validate your lonely basement-dwelling existence - hell no.

 

Problem is that the two Black Isle/Obsidian games with famously deep characterizations had romance, although the form and style differed from Bioware's.

 

The reason being because romance can add another layer of depth to a relationship.

 

What games?

 

Probably MotB and PS:T. They're Avellone "romances" though. So they're really tragedies that aren't offensive. They were written to pretty much punish those looking for virtual love/sex because our good Lord and savior Avellone famously hates the romances we all loathe.

 

No, I meant Kotor 2.

 

MotB isn't tragic if you play it correctly. Its also the only good straightforward romance in an Obsidian game.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Morality Games

[Minttunator]

I have to go with "no". There are already enough dating sims out there - Bioware keeps putting them out every year, we really don't need another one.

[Morality Games]

I have to go with "no". There are already enough dating sims out there - Bioware keeps putting them out every year, we really don't need another one.

 

It goes without saying that describing a Bioware game as a dating sim is hyperbole, although DAII did get overtaken somewhat by the romances.

 

In Mass Effect, the opposite occurred. The romances were nowhere near as central as the tone of the relationship suggested they should be.

[Living One]

I've already discussed why romances shouldn't be in the game(I've pointed out where in that post) but,once again,you prove that you guys just aren't capable of logical thinking and go all butthurt instead of trying to counter others points(and you are also trying to shift the argument into 'me not explaining what are the good quality paths'.lulzy).

 

I'm not going to go digging through other threads. If you want to refer to one, you could start with doing it properly by quoting or linking to it. Also, your attempt to deflect criticism by making generalizing statements about the logical capacity and "butthurtness" of an imagined cohesive group hardly helps you case. You're just continuing to make it clear that you're only here to be disruptive.

 

And if I have contributed to shut down those ****posting holes that are romance threads I gotta say I'm proud.

 

Are you really not seeing how obsessive you're being? Look at your own posts, man. Look at how you have twice as many posts as anyone else on the first page of this thread. Do you think this is healthy? Is this the sort of person you are outside of RPG forums too?

 

Well, hopefully the ban on these threads will remain lifted for long enough that I can put together a post with my own thoughts on the subject. First, though, I have a 1989 novel to read, a character juxtaposition essay to write, and the first draft of a research essay to put together. And, of course, I need to sleep... right about now.

If it's healty?No more,no less than insisting with this feature bro

Here's your quote:

'Also:1-the "but love and sex are parts of life and should be represented!1!" argument from pro-romancers isn't a sufficient reason to have an actual romance for the PC.Like at all.At most it's an argument to have stuff like NPCs that are married(not in a"big deal way" like many would like to:just something like "the blacksmith you are buying stuff from has a wife that runs the shop at different hours")or some occasional flirty lines(like FNV)or something minor like that.If it was really a sufficient reason then every story would have the protagonist fall in love with someone.Wich just isn't the case.

2-the fact that RPGs have side stories(in the form of quests)isn't a justification for romances either:the main quest and side quests that are thematically relevant to the main one(think New Vegas) should come first.In other words:side quests shouldn't be a justification to randomly throw in whatever storyline you want.

3-The argument "but if they put effort I'm sure they'll do it right".I don't think it's possible but let's admit it's a possibility for a moment:if they put so much effort doesn't that gets in opposition to point 2?'

 

Is that clear now?If they put romances they can't but loose:they either put something dry to not consume much time(wich is bad)or they put a lot of time to do it right wich is undoubtley going to be a problem for the rest of the story(and yes,they'll need a lot of efforts to fix a kind of plotline that has always merely required pressing the obvious responses to get through).

And I've got to sleep too.

[Zu Long]

My preference is definitely yes. Companions are my favorite part of any RPG. The fact that there aren't any in the Elder Scrolls or Fallout or The Witcher series are part of why those games don't really appeal to me. The idea of roaming around an area slaying monsters and performing heroic deeds with a group of friends is to me a big part of what an RPG is all about. Romance springing up between characters within that group is and should be an option in the game.

 

For the record, I guess I'm one of those Bioware fans some people in this topic dislike. I really enjoyed the romance options in all of the recent Bioware games.

[Morality Games]

My preference is definitely yes. Companions are my favorite part of any RPG. The fact that there aren't any in the Elder Scrolls or Fallout or The Witcher series are part of why those games don't really appeal to me. The idea of roaming around an area slaying monsters and performing heroic deeds with a group of friends is to me a big part of what an RPG is all about. Romance springing up between characters within that group is and should be an option in the game.

 

For the record, I guess I'm one of those Bioware fans some people in this topic dislike. I really enjoyed the romance options in all of the recent Bioware games.

 

However, there are romance arcs in the Witcher series (even putting aside the generic sexual conquests). Witcher is a love story, but Geralt is a loner.

 

The same can't be said of Fallout or the Elder Scrolls, but those games should be appreciated on their own merits.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Morality Games

[evdk]

I have to go with "no". There are already enough dating sims out there - Bioware keeps putting them out every year, we really don't need another one.

 

It goes without saying that describing a Bioware game as a dating sim is hyperbole, although DAII did get overtaken somewhat by the romances.

 

In Mass Effect, the opposite occurred. The romances were nowhere near as central as the tone of the relationship suggested they should be.

 

I must have played some crazy East European version of ME then.

[ArchBeast]

I must have played some crazy East European version of ME then.

 

Ohh... there is such a thing ?

 

East Effect ?

[Morality Games]

I have to go with "no". There are already enough dating sims out there - Bioware keeps putting them out every year, we really don't need another one.

 

It goes without saying that describing a Bioware game as a dating sim is hyperbole, although DAII did get overtaken somewhat by the romances.

 

In Mass Effect, the opposite occurred. The romances were nowhere near as central as the tone of the relationship suggested they should be.

 

I must have played some crazy East European version of ME then.

 

In ME2 and ME3, you had 5-10 unique dialogues per character and had one specific shot in one specific conversation to get on a romance track (whereas the DAII conversations were populated with Flirt options). The romances only rarely blended into the central narrative, but the heavy tone and stylized treatment of each romance suggested they had a meaningful role in Shepard's journey.

 

DAII was a more extreme version of ME2 in that the 'central narrative' was substantially reduced in favor of giving each companion their personalized arc. The romance permeated these to a much stronger degree than in ME2, which is what imparts the sense that romance overtook DAII.

 

It would be more accurate to say, "Companions overtook DAII, and then romance overtook companions."

Edited October 16, 2012 by Morality Games

[Ieo]

My preference is definitely yes. Companions are my favorite part of any RPG. The fact that there aren't any in the Elder Scrolls or Fallout or The Witcher series are part of why those games don't really appeal to me. The idea of roaming around an area slaying monsters and performing heroic deeds with a group of friends is to me a big part of what an RPG is all about. Romance springing up between characters within that group is and should be an option in the game.

 

For the record, I guess I'm one of those Bioware fans some people in this topic dislike. I really enjoyed the romance options in all of the recent Bioware games.

 

I would not want the romance content to overpower anything of the rest of the game, and Dragon Age is the perfect example of this. The requisite full-VO talking heads, complete lack of side quest exploration, poor main story with completely forgettable antagonists, crappy boring combat--it really seems to me that Bioware sacrificed much of the SP experience in favor of the romances.

 

Ultimately, I wouldn't mind if Obsidian implemented them, so long as they were subtle, did not eat overmuch into the overall percentage of rom-secular character content, and did not latch into the main central storyline (maybe some at the end in terms of the epilogues, but not majorly influencing the critical path either).

[evdk]

I must have played some crazy East European version of ME then.

 

Ohh... there is such a thing ?

 

East Effect ?

 

Sure instead of Sheppard you have Brayko.

[ArchBeast]

I must have played some crazy East European version of ME then.

 

Ohh... there is such a thing ?

 

East Effect ?

 

Sure instead of Sheppard you have Brayko.

 

And insted of Liara you have

Albatross

 

Edited October 16, 2012 by ArchBeast

[Jasede]

What, marrying a homunculus abomination that desperately wants to mimic being a real person isn't tragic to you?

Edit: I'm being tongue-in-cheek, I didn't consider Safiya because MCA didn't write her.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Jasede

[Gorth]

Thread pruned a bit. Time to write some PM's and take off the gloves a bit it seems...

[Osvir]

Thread pruned a bit. Time to write some PM's and take off the gloves a bit it seems...

 

I think we got some interesting discussion out of it though, well until it began to go off-topic. I'd love to try it again (another thread), because I'm sure there can be epicness with a romance in a game. I think that those who dislike it needs to unlock their potential and reveal what hidden knowledge they have in "How to make it better". Some of the very classical stories and histories of our ancient God's (Norse Gods, Greek Gods etc. etc.) have lots and lots of inspiration to be had. Mythology in Greece specifically.

[Gorth]

Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way.

[Ieo]

Some of the very classical stories and histories of our ancient God's (Norse Gods, Greek Gods etc. etc.) have lots and lots of inspiration to be had. Mythology in Greece specifically.

 

Yyyyeah, knowing how a bunch of those myths used seduction+rape as a major mechanic for "love," I don't think that's a good idea.

[rjshae]

Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way.

 

Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant?

[Gorth]

Good idea or not, it made for interesting reading and lots of drama

 

I know people these days seems have some knee jerk reactions when the word "romance" pops up, associating it with "Bioware Type Romance" (seems to have become a meme on it's own), romance litterature kind of love (which I personally find revolting, being somewhat of a cynic) or the kind of teenage infatuation you would find in movies aimed at the saturday noon TV crowd.

 

So far, I've liked what Avellone & Co. have done, but that doesn't mean I'm not curious to see what they can do when exploring higher highs and deeper depths of human(oid) depravity. Key issue for me is it has to feel "natural" (or unnatural) as appropriate for the characters involved. If my companion is a crazed follower of the blood good, screaming "Blood for the Blood God" all the time, I would find it strange if he didn't express his "love" for his deity by butchering everything in his path. An abusive bastard I would expect to act abusively and a "ladies man" I would expect to be a flirt. Extrapolate the list of examples and add to it, hopefully seeing where I'm going

[Gorth]

Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way.

 

Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant?

Deny everything and move to a new continent?

 

Edit: On a more serious note, it is a situation that *could* be put to good use by a good writer. How it plays out and if you actually end up having to support somebody is not a given.

[Osvir]

Some of the very classical stories and histories of our ancient God's (Norse Gods, Greek Gods etc. etc.) have lots and lots of inspiration to be had. Mythology in Greece specifically.

 

Yyyyeah, knowing how a bunch of those myths used seduction+rape as a major mechanic for "love," I don't think that's a good idea.

 

Context. You're looking at the negative. But I'm with you Ieo, they are very dark, very mature (and unfortunately it would authentically fit with the setting Obsidian have in mind, it would give atmosphere for sure, but it could also give tons and tons of criticism). Of course very offensive by our modern standards. It isn't that I'm after, but the personalities, the intrigue, the drama, the "banters" if you will.

 

There is so much more to Greek and Norse Gods as well, there is much in the Mythology. About the ordinary man, about civilization.

 

A fictional work, by a Swedish author named Frank G. Bengtsson, writes a story about a Viking who goes through a lot of ordeal and adventuring. After much wayfaring he comes across a King's daughter (he is a guest at his fort) and they become lovers. Not in that fancy dancy way, but she is actually a warrior herself, in her own way (you don't mess with them Viking ladies). She becomes a part of the adventure, and holds her own strength in the journey. Without her and their "party-conflict" the story wouldn't have been the same.

 

Many stories benefit from the romance, and I think it should be valued just as much as the actual storyline and not just thrown together and put into the world because "People want to get some".

 

I could've done without all of the romancing in Dragon Age: Origins, but the romance part I wouldn't/couldn't have been without would be the choice to bed Morrigan towards the end.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Osvir

[Zu Long]

My preference is definitely yes. Companions are my favorite part of any RPG. The fact that there aren't any in the Elder Scrolls or Fallout or The Witcher series are part of why those games don't really appeal to me. The idea of roaming around an area slaying monsters and performing heroic deeds with a group of friends is to me a big part of what an RPG is all about. Romance springing up between characters within that group is and should be an option in the game.

 

For the record, I guess I'm one of those Bioware fans some people in this topic dislike. I really enjoyed the romance options in all of the recent Bioware games.

 

However, there are romance arcs in the Witcher series (even putting aside the generic sexual conquests). Witcher is a love story, but Geralt is a loner.

 

The same can't be said of Fallout or the Elder Scrolls, but those games should be appreciated on their own merits.

 

I'm not saying they're bad. They just aren't my cup of tea. Skyrim is by any objective measure a better game than Suikoden V. That doesn't change the fact that I've played through Suikoden V several times, and have had a blast each time, while I returned Skyrim to my friend who let me borrow his copy after a couple of days. Peoples tastes are different. I only contributed to this game after Obsidian confirmed companions would be a focus, because I know my own tastes.

 

 

I would not want the romance content to overpower anything of the rest of the game, and Dragon Age is the perfect example of this. The requisite full-VO talking heads, complete lack of side quest exploration, poor main story with completely forgettable antagonists, crappy boring combat--it really seems to me that Bioware sacrificed much of the SP experience in favor of the romances.

 

Ultimately, I wouldn't mind if Obsidian implemented them, so long as they were subtle, did not eat overmuch into the overall percentage of rom-secular character content, and did not latch into the main central storyline (maybe some at the end in terms of the epilogues, but not majorly influencing the critical path either).

 

Bioware sacrificed a lot of things in Dragon Age 2, though I didn't find combat all that bad. Then again, I am a veteran Dynasty Warriors fan, so I'll conceed the point. But I'm not sure there was a decision there to sacrifice them in favor of the romances. Rather, I've always thought that the companions and romances were one of the few things they got right. The companion interactions were so noticeable because it was one of the few things the game did really well. I tend to think that's because Bioware did those first. Then the time crunch came, so they started cutting corners.

 

As you say though, romance shouldn't be the end-all, be-all focus of the game. But I do think it has a place in a game like this, and it's a feature I really enjoy, so I thought I'd speak up in support.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Zu Long

[AGX-17]

What's wrong with tasteful sex options? Do you consider all books/movies with sex included to be distasteful? When it's well written, it can be completely natural part of PC's relationship with NPC/companion.

 

The people who say "tasteful sex" in video game contexts are usually the modders who make explicit pornographic mods for bethesda games.

 

Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way.

 

Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant?

Deny everything and move to a new continent?

 

Edit: On a more serious note, it is a situation that *could* be put to good use by a good writer. How it plays out and if you actually end up having to support somebody is not a given.

 

Peter Molyneux = not a good writer.

 

Incidentially, that is basically the theme of the game Tokyo Jungle, a sandbox game in which you play as an animal in post-apocalyptic Tokyo and the gameplay revolves around eating and mating. If you die, control shifts to one of your offspring, ad infinitum as long as you have them. Game over if you fail to reproduce.

Edited October 16, 2012 by AGX-17