Potions Suck and Here's Why

[anubite]

Obsidian needs to support a variety of playstyles and levels of familiarity with game systems and content.

 

Sure, I don't disagree with that. But Skyrim's potiion systems has to be one of the worst in history. And the 'potion finger' syndrome is something I was mostly talking about with Diablo 2 -- 'potion finger' is a worst-case scenario, since PE is supposed to be semi-turn based, or round-based real-time combat, I doubt this situation will occur, but it was still worth mentioning in the original post in order to hopefully remind the developers how situations can degrade quickly when designing a game.

 

I don't see any problem with the potions in the Infinity Engine (other than what was caused by the slot based inventory system). Too be honest though, I actually like the "enter your inventory and use potions to your heart's content" from Fallout and the Elder Scrolls games. You'll still have to carry potions with you, which is limited in number, but it does allow you to deal with possible unfair and cheap encounters if you save your potions for them.

 

TES's potion system only works because you can procure an extremely finite number of potions from vendors. It's a pretty lame system, especially the non-healing potions, which provide mostly useless benefits (+60 to your conjuration skill for 5 minutes?). Sure you can get an "edge" with these things, they do their effects, but they're not fun nor do they invite any kind of strategic depth, say - like a potion that turns a character into protective stone, or gaurantees critical hits for a short duration, or makes a character's fire damage freeze targets in place for a short time, or anything really. Potions that last less than 5 to 10 seconds (or only several rounds) and provide powerful, battle-altering effects, are more impactful, which is important when developing strategic gameplay. Skyrim's potion system is lazy and insipid and really something to be avoided.

 

I guess I would be fine if PE just used BG2 or some other IE game's potion system/potion balance (those systems at least work, to a degree), but I think the potion system is one area where PE can innovate from the older style IE games, rather than copy.

[general_azure]

The only problem I had with potions in IE were when they ended up debuffing you, setting AC to 0 becomes pointless rather fast. Not very hard to avoid this particular issue though.

 

And the potion of cure disease is one of the most essential items in all of morrowind as far as I'm concerned. Levitation, water walking/breathing, infravision or healing attributes ain't bad either. Being able to craft potions with any magical effect at any strength doesn't mean they should all be awesome.

[Lady Evenstar]

I think Skyrim's use of potions is fine, although I can agree that the usefulness of +conjuration potions is tied to flaws (i.e. excessive limitations on casting) in the design of mages.

[anubite]

Which is more fun? A 5 minute potion for +5% to critical hit rating, or a 10 second potion with 100% critical rating?

 

The 5 minute potion might provide more critical hits, but I would think the latter potion would be more fun and strategic.

 

Which is more fun? Drinking a dozen potions while fighting a boss? Or perfectly managing restoration skills, your party's positioning and its non-restoring support skills? I would think the latter.

 

That's what I'm advocating.

[Jarmo]

Which is more fun? A 5 minute potion for +5% to critical hit rating, or a 10 second potion with 100% critical rating?

 

The former, not that it'd be such a huge help, but hey, every little bit.

Chug down the potions and then concentrate on tactics.

 

Which is more fun? Drinking a dozen potions while fighting a boss? Or perfectly managing restoration skills, your party's positioning and its non-restoring support skills? I would think the latter.

 

The latter, having to gulp 5 second potions all the way through the fight is dismal. The same with 3 round effect spells.

I much prefered bulls strenghth with 5 hrs duration, stoneskin that'd last all day and such long duration buffs.

[curryinahurry]

Potions in D&D crpgs struck me as a workaround for the shortcomings of the vancian casting system (or poor resource management if you take another view). I never played or dm'd a p&p session where one could buy potions. Find them or craft them, but finding them wasn't very common.

 

Given that PE will have its own system and also what we have learned about the damage system from that Josh Sawyer interview in Gamebanshee, that there will be 2 types of damage, stamina based and health based; stamina goes quickly but can be replenished, health must be replenished by rest, I would prefer if there were no magic potions in the game.

 

If we can brew potions, I would prefer that they be alchemical in nature and work in potentially very different ways. Yes there would be certain similarities, but I think that it would make crafting much more interesting if the only way to create certain effects was through alchemy and vice versa.

[anubite]

It would be interesting perhaps, if only weak health recovery potions are in the game -- they're there to help new players in the first 10 levels of combat or so, but your party rapidly outgrows their use as an emergency aid. But I suppose that's a bit too detailed of a request, this is far too early in development to make such design decisions.

 

But I do hope the developers consider impactful potions. I also hope they do not balance gameplay around potions.

 

I don't want potions removed from the game. But I want them designed such that they're almost like an ability, one you can cast very rarely, but one that benefits you in a distinct, strategic way.

 

Many new RPGs are forgoing potion use altogether, rapidly replenishing your mana/life when you leave combat, or adding... God of War style health globes. I don't like either system at all.

 

I also don't care for "food-based" systems. Especially in Fallout 3, where you're pausing the game to chew on some bread to recover just enough life to kill some radscorpion? That's not only immersion breaking and silly, it's dumb. Food items in those games recover so little life you need to have a feast every time your health gets a dent in it. If there is a "food system" I'd like my character not to have a bottomless stomach, thanks. Balance the food around someone consuming only one or two food items before/after battle, not thirty or more.

Edited October 15, 2012 by anubite

[AlphaShard]

Well if Update 24 is anything to go by looks like the OP is getting what he wants. Healing will NOT be easy so no spaming potions (healing anyways).

[Vox Draco]

No matter what game I played, no matter if it were potions, med-gel or poultices I always end up hardly ever using them anyway. Well, except for the healing-stuff, though that depends on the game...

 

I just think "no, better keep that potion of giant's strength for the next boss, it might be handy!"...and then the credits roll...

 

Yet I like it if the party had to carry some medicine-stuff etc around with them if they go on a journey. There should always be the risk of getting sick or poisoned, and then you are better prepared or say goodbye to your char.

 

But I can do without potions of superstrength, firebreathe, etc...keep it simple but vital, and don't make sipping potions consuming half the time in battles, then I am fine I guess...

[AGX-17]

*ctrl+f* "metabolism" zero results.

 

Here's why potions suck. Metabolism. Even if it were fast acting, something ingested through the mouth would still take 15-20 minutes to take effect at the minimum. If it's some magic wound healer, you slap it on the wound, you don't drink it. Tourniquets and bandages stop bleeding, stitches bind cuts and the body's natural healing process mends the wound. It's fine if soul powers accelerate the natural healing process, but remedies shouldn't be ingested and instantaneously effective.

Edited October 17, 2012 by AGX-17

[anubite]

*ctrl+f* "metabolism" zero results.

 

Here's why potions suck. Metabolism. Even if it were fast acting, something ingested through the mouth would still take 15-20 minutes to take effect at the minimum. If it's some magic wound healer, you slap it on the wound, you don't drink it. Tourniquets and bandages stop bleeding, stitches bind cuts and the body's natural healing process mends the wound. It's fine if soul powers accelerate the natural healing process, but remedies shouldn't be ingested and instantaneously effective.

 

This isn't exactly true. There are poisons that can kill you extremely, extremely quickly, even when ingested into the stomach. Water is also very quickly absorbed into the bloodstream. Metabolism doesn't have to come into play for some substances. Besides, this is magic usually, what we're talking about here. I would scarcely expect it to follow the normal rules of conventional medicine and pharmacy. There could be herbs which are "absorbed into the soul" or however you want to explain it, and that such things rapidly effect one's body.

 

I'd argue potions suck from a medical perspective because everything in the world is poisonous in the right concentration, even water. Potions should be no different, heck, they should be extremely toxic given their effects on the body. I would expect them to kill you if you took to many in a single period of time (a day, a week, a month).

Edited October 17, 2012 by anubite

[Leferd]

Potions should have addictive qualities., which will grow with frequent usage. Weaning yourself off them cold turkey will give you serious penalties.

[light487]

I really don't like HP and MP potions in many games... but having said that I do like crafting potions and then being able to use those potions. If potions were made a little more rare, a little more expensive than usual but crafting rewarded people by making them more readily available through alchemy.. that could work. Not so much that it becomes an exploit to just make sure you have an alchemist in your party.. but to make it rewarding to have an alchemist if you choose.

[Soranor]

I like the idea of stronger potions with shorter durations. Don't forget drinking animations though. Since PE is going towards a more realistic health system, you shouldn't be able to empty a bottle in no time at all. Again, The Witcher does that pretty well.

[Jarmo]

I'd like weaker potions with longer durations.

Gulp down a couple giving skin hardening/damage reduction, combat reflexes and stamina/health increase/regeneration.

Then fight the fight, hopefully before the effects die out and side effects kick in.

I liked the witcher system as well...

[Qumi]

An idea:

 

You all know that when you take medicine, in time that medicine has a weaker effect on you. You need to take more to feel any difference. Just like with drugs. Why not introduce it in potions? A resistance that you get after using a potion.

 

For example - the first health potion you drink after an 8 h period give you 100% hp restored value. The next one 75%. The next one 50%, and so on.

 

Toxicity is also a nice idea, if I remember correctly there was some rule to it in ADnD?

[el pinko grande]

I really dislike traditional healing potions, that instantly restore large chunks of your health. I'd much prefer slow-acting healing potions, if they simply must be in the game.

 

And yeah, the toxicity bar from the Witcher games was awesome, and probably the best implementation of potions I've seen.

[Calmar]

If this game is to revive the spirit of the classsic RPGs, potions are a must. I never relied too much on potions, so I think they are not too powerful.

[The Guilty Party]

Potions are just another lever for developers to balance combat and tasks. New Vegas had potions (stimpacks and magazines, effectively) and they were powerful in normal mode and not as powerful in hardcore mode. I don't see why they'd do things worse this time around.

[Gizmo]

I would prefer if there were no magic potions in the game.

I'd just want them to be rare as hen's teeth; and prized when aquired ~and saved for last resort.

 

I did like the toxin mechanic for potions in the original Witcher.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Gizmo

[mokona]

Remove potions from the game entirely. No potions. Ever.

 

Do we really need to continually pump steroids like Tour de France cyclists or major league sports players in order to play a roleplaying game? The concept of potions sucks as does their execution across numerous games (including pen and paper D&D).

[Pshaw]

Honestly the issue with potions is solved easily with cooldowns. In dragon age origins (especially if you didn't have a dedicated healer) potions were life savers and frequently I'd have a character dying faster than they could get healed. This prevents you from just chugging them to trivialize encounters. Considering this game is designed around being able to complete solo I find it unlikely that potions will be toned down anymore than this. If you're playing a lone rogue you need a way to heal and potions will probably be your main option.

 

If anything I'd say remove resist potions or resist stats entirely. These are the potions that tend to just rot in your inventory doing nothing. Most of the time you can do without them so you save them for when you might really need them and it just never happens.

[Hassat Hunter]

I rather have more options than less how to end my combat favorably.

So, yes to potions.

 

Otherwise there is *just* magic to prepare for hard fights. And that's not a good thing...

[Humanoid]

Personally prefer no potions in terms of being a combat tool (as opposed to quest items/macguffins). Setting aside my personal disdain for the inventory management aspect of them, the other design problem is that they also tend to overlap with magic spells, and therefore don't particularly add much in terms of variety there. But if they're around, then I'd take the approach to the other extreme, in that they'd be super-rare but potentially single-handedly turn the battle (see the note about interesting magic effects in the next paragraph, which is the one I wrote first). They'd be things you genuinely save and use perhaps less than once-in-a-dozen battles, when you really find yourself in trouble.

 

 

I'll fully admit to being very biased against "buff" magic in general, in particular preparatory ones that you leave up constantly to be at your best in combat - it's really nothing but busywork and adds nothing tactically: "Okay, next battle, make sure the Bless spell is on and will last until the end of this fight." What is interesting is more short-term and reactive stuff, like putting up a sphere of invulnerability around a heavily wounded ally, or something that might give you 10 seconds of so of double-speed actions.

[Vandoon]

There has been some great ideas voiced already in this thread and I wanted to add my 2c worth.

I agree with the current trend in potions being very poor. Having a pack full of pots that get either horded or spammed depending on the players style is a joke.

I would like to see a mix of the ideas presented. I do like the varying of quantities and strengths. Less and stronger with the limits mentioned earlier along the lines of reduces effectiveness if taken within a timeframe. Addictive properties if taken regularly resulting in withdrawals and penalties. Toxicity if taken in large quantities. Apply these to all range of pots with differing levels and you make the use of all buffs and heals more interesting and not just an inventory decision.

 

Potions can be broken into a number of categories.

Heals

Buffs Debuffs

Poisons

Weapons (bombs traps grenades smoke screens)

 

These can be created through three primary means

Herbal

Chemical

Magical.

 

The different methods of creation could perhaps change the properties or addictions.

 

You could use chemical means to purify the herbal ingredients and after the herbal potion is made magic can reduce addictions or amplify the positives.

 

For weapons if the mix is explosive there should be a risk to carrying or a method to transport carefully.

Healing does not have to be just imbued as others have mentioned it can be patches and bindings. Stimulants are another path.

 

All and all I would like to see something more than heal x.

 

With heals dont grade the distribution. Have the heals appear at any time. If the PC chooses to use a large heal when they only require a little that is a risk and the reverse is also true having to spam small ones leaves a good chance of poisoning or addiction.

 

I would like to see action penalties if they are to be used in combat not just pause time as you open your pack and rifle through it.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Vandoon